KIPE ANNM Plastique?

[HVD]

I've had a look around the archives and there is scant information on ANNM type plastique such as mentioned in KIPE(2).I was wondering if anyone coud post their experiences and observations with this explosive? How sensitive is it compared to straight ANNM? Do you add microspheres etc? D.V. estimates?

KIPE(2) suggests two methods : one using 100% pure NM and the other with 35% NM model plane/racing fuel. The remainder is usually methanol and some castor oils etc. Has anyone tried the model fuel method?

The Makeshift arsenal details ANNM plastique as well, but Lowry (the author) doesn't give much information on it, and besides, his method comes straight from KIPE(2) anyway.

Wantsomfet mentioned he tested the straight NM version in the "ANNM / Al sensitized" thread, but again there was little discussion of it.

So does anyone have any information?

Thanks in advance
HVD

[DBSP]

Well I can say one thing for shure, never mind the model fuel plastique. It won't work.

The straight one will probably work if you add enaugh NC/NM to it, I've tried it once, it failed to detonate but that might have been bacause the BC partially failed as well. Anyway if you are going to testa any of these plastiques try the straight one and add some extra NC/NM.

[Mr Cool]

I bet the normal NM fuel will produce an easily detonatable mixture, compared to most AN mixtures, but get pure NM if you can. Also the oil in it would almost certainly reduce/remove its ability to gel with the NC.
I've used microspheres (a filler for fibreglass resin) with AN/MNN and it does increase sensitivity, but ANNM shouldn't need them I think if using pure NM.
My VoD estimate would be 6 km/sec, but this really doesn't help at all because it's a figure based on the commonly quoted figures for normal ANNM! I can't think of any reason why it would be lower, assuming similar proportions of NM. Does anyone actually have a reference saying, in effect, "ANNM's VoD was measured by method X to be Y m/s"? I'm not sure I've ever seen a figure that had reliable information to back it up.

[KAROMESIS]

I haven't either, my guess is as good as yours on the ANNM VoD. with accurate studies to back it up.I have a lot of room to "dream" about 12 kilos of ANNM any booster come to mind to make this concoction especially powerful. (by the way it's a tamped charge:D

[Axt]

What the hell are you talking about Karomesis, how about not posting unless you have something to post about!

Ive used a lot of "ANNM plastque" but ive never actually made up any ratios to use, I just gell the NM with NC and add AN into it until it turns plastic. Its always cap sensitive and full detonations without confinement. The first movie in explosions link in sig is this.

[KAROMESIS]

axt I am sorry if I offended you :( However in my post I was ageeing with mr.cool on his assesment that there are no real substantiated studies to confirm the Vod of ANNM plastique.In my experience with just straight ANNM i used 99.97% NM and nothing else the strongest I can get in model airplane fuel in my area is 25%NM .I Havn't even bothered with other sensitizers like AL because the steel shattering effects of 5:1 AN/NM are exquisite.Axt in your formulation what size cap did you use ? I am going to try ANNM plastique .

[zeocrash]

just out of interest why did you bring this post up, it should have been dead and buried. i'm sure you could have found some info about boosters if you searched. i wouldn't go resurecting really old posts in the future unless you have something really important to say on the subject, or you can write lots to give the impression that you had something really important to say :P

[Dr_Pind]

From what I understand, most people go with the 5:1 mix of AN to NM. This gives a very positive ox-balance. According to my calculations the proportions should be about 60% AN to 30% NM. Wouldn't it be feasible to add a fuel to take up excess oxygen and to give more power? I guess something like parrafine or vegetable-oil would work very well?

[Dr_Pind]

Most people go for the 5:1 mix of AN to NM. This gives a very positive ox-balance. According to my calculations, the persentages should be arround 30% NM to 70% AN. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Wouldn't it be a good idea to add extra fuel to give a better ox-balance and beter power?

[Guerilla]

NM cant be used alone to achieve zero OB, because AN cant absorb all the NM needed. There was some discussion about improving its absorbing ability by saturating porous material (wool) with AN before soaking in NM. However it wont necessarily increase the performance as the NM is sensitized with NH4+ as follows
NH4NO3 + CH3NO2 <-> NH4CH2NO2 + HNO3, and obviously its stongly to left.. Would be interesting to know the constant of this reaction though.

[PhoeniX_KEA]

For my "EXPLOSIVE TARGETS" I use a mixture of:
6 parts A.N.
3 Parts KCLO3
1 Part 35% N.M.
The 'targets' reliably detonate from a bullet impact. A 100gm 'Target' can produce a most satafactory concussion wave from 75 yards and helps in keeping the shooting grounds free from debris.

[PhoeniX_KEA]

I know the topic is Plastique but, others are reporting on successfull combinations, here's mine.
I use this recipe at the range when I go out to shoot:
6 : 3: 1
Ammonium Nitrate : Potassium Chlorate : Nitromethane (30% to 40%)
Either 30 or 40% NM will work surprising well.
A 100Gram "target" (mixed at the site) can easily be set off with any number of sporting class calibers and even the weakest of detonators reliability. Even the differences in density allows for quite abit of flexability using this recipe.

I get any percentage I need from http://www.pricechemical.com/
They have a varity of gallon sized containers from 20% to 100% at reasonable prices.

[me234]

Phoenix, what caliber firearm do you shoot the charge with?

[Hubert]

Hey
Dont mix NH4NO3 with KClO3 because this stuff reacts.
NH4NO3 and KClO4 is good stuff and is safe.
This is written in T. Urbanski

Maybe nitromethane is for stabilisation of this plastique

---------------------------
i've edited your post to make sense. don't post again until you can type properly and your english has improved. - kingspaz

[PyroTech]

Never mix ammonium salts with chlorates! NEVER. It will form, the very unstable and dangerous, ammonium chlorate!
Keep it in the back of head, at all times....

[Desmikes]

I used DBSP and pure NM in preparation of this plastique and I was very pleased with the results when it worked. It makes a very malleable mixture that sticks a little bit but is easily shaped with gloves, it seems to be more powerful than ANNM, but its kinda hard to say without side-by-side comparison (could be the increased density or Nitroglycerin help). A 200g charge placed on a 20by20by6cm board shatters 1cm wide hard steel in a 4cm range to a mean size of of 1.5 cm, that will be imbedded in nearby trees to a depth of 1.5-3cm; it also vaporizes the base board and creates a crater of roughly 1/2m wide and 25 cm deep in a very loose soil. Lots of white smoke...
I highly recommend using some means of reducing the density and/or more AN than 2X NM, that seems to sensitize it better. And don't just dump SP in NM b/c its gonna take you around 4 days to get to become uniform, slowly add SP while stirring.

[jlithen]

I have once heard that the recommended ratio for ANNM is 5-15%NM and 85-95%AN. 5%NM being the most sensitive, if you are able to mix it well of course, and 15% being the most powerful. I once tried detonating 38g of 10%/90%mixture inside a 18mm hole in rock. I used an ordinary cap...it worked fine:)
But yes, the OB +/-0 proportion would be 73/27.

[PhoeniX_KEA]

Sorry didn't see the request for information on what caliber I shoot the target with. To answer your question;
.308, .223, & 7.62x39 all reliably detonate the 'targets' not so with the Tannerite product. Even with a 'fluffy' mixture (not packed) several Tannerite targets would scaresly be any louder than a fart.

[tom haggen]

What would be the shelf life of an ANNM plastic explosive. Wouldn't it go bad once the nitromethane evaporated out of the mixture?

[rangegal]

I'm definitely going to try this. Yea, I don't see much use for ANNM mixed with anything as a plastique due to the volatility of NM. Isn't the point of a "plastique" to be versatile and mouldable for making shaped charges on the go or something? I don't see something being very versatile if its sticky and one of the active ingredients evaporates quickly. Sure it would make it easier to make shaped charges if you prepare it right before you need it, but I don't see why you couldn't find some other way to hold normal ANNM in your preferred shape if you have time to prepare it anyway.

Do you think it would be possible to make a plastique out AN/NC/MEKP? Does MEKP retain the solvent properties of MEK? Probably not... but its a thought. Not that this would be very versatile either since you couldn't mold it with your hands. I sure wanna try it anyway though (with some gloves on)!

[The_Duke]

MEKP does not dissolve nitrocellulose, and you are getting off topic, again... :rolleyes:

[Charles Owlen Picket]

There is a difference between a plastic mixture and a plastique. The latter implies a clay-like substance that retains it's shape and has formability as in the "play-dough" toy.

A true plastique (like C4) has many utilitarian uses in industry, etc. While a plastic mass is simply a flexible mass and holds together to a greater or lesser degree. Often in books of these type the term "plastic" is simply used to describe a flexible solid but is in no manner the same as a plastique.

[Rbick]

Why use MEKP with NC when you could just use NM? You obviously already have NM on hand, and it is more powerful and stable than MEKP. After all, this thread is about ANNM based explosives.

As far as making something with NM that disallows the NM to evaporate; I don't know if you're going to have any luck. One way I found around this is to seal the charge is a plastic bag until you arrive at your blasting site or target. The addition of NC may help keep the charge together, as ANNM alone tends to fall apart easily. You'll have to make adjustments in your quantities of NM and AN to get the desired result.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Realistically however there are many energetic materials used in industry that cannot be exposed to air and must remain sealed. - Not only from an evaporation standpoint either.

Hurst once spoke of using sealing machines to make the packets for his KinePak product and the challenges of using heat to seal a plastic envelope that would contain a flammable material. - I'll bet that there might be a way to do this in a non-industrial setting.

[Rbick]

Well how about these (http://www.jardenstore.com/products.aspx?pgsz=9&bid=18&cid=79)? Simple vaccums to store food could be used to seal ANNM to stop the NM from evaporating and the AN from absorbing water. These are rather expensive, but I have seen some for 99 USD. It may be worth a try. I'm not sure how the machines work, but I assume they generate heat to melt the bag after vaccuming to create an air tight seal. You just mix your charge, place it in a bag and seal it, and store it for later. Just an idea, I'm not trying to advertise here :p

I'm not going to order one off line, but if I happen to see one at my local grocery store I may just pick it up.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Actually I have seen a semi-professional device used and the results were great. But just like a coffee grinder used as a mill, I would MARK it with something like "NON-FOOD ITEMS ONLY" or something just to keep yourself safe. Wife or girl-friend uses something that you just mixed mercuric chloride in and you start to get sick out of no-where - you know the story.....

Now it the ones you had the link to....IIRC I think those guys need special bags to function properly. They DO work very well, in that they both seal very well and maintain a vacuum, so you could really get some long term storage out of them but the bags are not too thick. That may not be an important issue most of the time & there are "work arounds" for that but it's important to note.

On the plus side they are basically inexpensive and can hold quite a bit. - I did check out of NM could be retained in any other manner and came up dry.