megalomania
June 21st, 2003, 11:39 AM
pyromaniac_guy
New Member
Posts: 33
From: us
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 07-06-2001 04:54 PM
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Recently someone suggested a mix of 10% dnt 5% Al and 85% AN in the thread about improvised amotols, ect. From my experience with notrating toulene, dnt saeems to be an oily colelction of needle like crystals (probably because there was a mix of the various nitrated products). Also since you melt dnt and tnt under water, there would be a decent mosture content to it. That being the case, how would one go about making such a mix? slow incorporation of minisule aount of material by kneeding or carefull action in a morter n pestle? Due tothe moisture I presume the long term storage of such a mix would be unfavorable.. correct? Any suggestions, or has anyone else made such a mix?
Thanks in advance
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1013
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 07-06-2001 05:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DNT will not absorb moisture, except by capilliary action between crystals.
Try melting the DNT in an oil bath (but not in water), and stirring in powdered, anhydrous AN, and then the Al.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 782
From: Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 07-06-2001 05:16 PM
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Someone reccomended mixing AN and picric acid. Of course this could not be stored for a long time but it was claimed that it was quite powerfull. i wonder if adding the AN to molten picric acid and making a cast would work.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-06-2001 05:40 PM
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couldn't that form ammonium picrate which is a primary explosive?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 782
From: Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 07-06-2001 06:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As i said it wouldnt be stored. I wonder if there is a chemical that could be introduced that will stop the formation.
pyromaniac_guy
New Member
Posts: 33
From: us
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 07-06-2001 06:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
should I be worried about removing any residual water from the dnt or tnt? Also, anyone have any ideas about the shelf life of such a mixture?
TIA
FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 07-06-2001 07:51 PM
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From my understanding (correct me if im wrong) but primary explosives are sensitive like AP and MF. From what ive heard, ammonium picrate is extremely insensitive.
cutefix
Frequent Poster
Posts: 330
From: california
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 07-07-2001 01:38 AM
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Ammonium Picrate is I think the only less sensitive salt of picric acid,even lesser than TNT.It was used during the war as explosive filler for armor piercing shells.
DNT being less nitrated have lesser explosive power than TNT.So if amatols are are made with the dinitro derivative its explosive potential will be degraded, not improved.
Therefore making such a mix is worthy only if the trinitroderivative is not available and there is no other choice.DNT was indeed used in industrial explosives(slurries,etc.) as sensitizer.I think Dupont made a product from it
That blend of AN/DNT/Al looks like similar to an explosive known as moleculite discussed in the Yarchive.
pyromaniac_guy
New Member
Posts: 33
From: us
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 07-07-2001 03:00 AM
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I do realize that dnt would be a less energetic choice than tnt, but isnt dnt's highly negative oxygen ballance compensated for by the an?
cutefix
Frequent Poster
Posts: 330
From: california
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 07-07-2001 04:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amatols based on TNT are usually in the 50/50 and 80/20 AN?TNT blend.If you will use the latter mix replacing TNT with DNT The explosive power will be lesser.The VOD of amatols decrease as the amount of TNT become lesser:it will be aggravated in the DNT case.If you add aluminum powder you can improve the blast effect but will more reduce its brisance.Aluminum also need oxygen also.Therefore more oxygen available does not generally mean more power and will not apply to all explosives.If you will realize RDX,HMX,PETN are powerful but oxygen deficient,even its blends like octol,cyclotol,pentolite are oxgen deficient but powerful.
[This message has been edited by cutefix (edited July 07, 2001).]
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-23-2001 09:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only problem of stability can come from the oxydation of Al by acidic moist NH4NO3! If all ingredients are wel dried stability is not a problem.
DNT is indeed less good than TNT but the idea is to improve the power and sensitivity of AN; and if you compare performances of AN/DNT mixes against ANFO's and ANNM you will see the sensitivity and power are better than ANFO and equal to that of ANNM.
Also for those who can't have access to highly conc HNO3 or H2SO4 or NM is is a good replacement!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
cutefix
Frequent Poster
Posts: 330
From: california
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 07-25-2001 01:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cast and granular explosives like the 50/50 and 80/20 amatols respectively does not contain volatile substances like NM so are more stable than ANNM.The defect is that due to the higher content of AN in 80/20 mixture it will be more sensitive to moisture;however because of the waxy characteristic of TNT or DNT it will coat the AN and it will be more shelf stable than ANNM if storability is compared(however the NM/AN explosive was not designed for storage but for immediate use.)
New Member
Posts: 33
From: us
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 07-06-2001 04:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recently someone suggested a mix of 10% dnt 5% Al and 85% AN in the thread about improvised amotols, ect. From my experience with notrating toulene, dnt saeems to be an oily colelction of needle like crystals (probably because there was a mix of the various nitrated products). Also since you melt dnt and tnt under water, there would be a decent mosture content to it. That being the case, how would one go about making such a mix? slow incorporation of minisule aount of material by kneeding or carefull action in a morter n pestle? Due tothe moisture I presume the long term storage of such a mix would be unfavorable.. correct? Any suggestions, or has anyone else made such a mix?
Thanks in advance
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1013
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 07-06-2001 05:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DNT will not absorb moisture, except by capilliary action between crystals.
Try melting the DNT in an oil bath (but not in water), and stirring in powdered, anhydrous AN, and then the Al.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 782
From: Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 07-06-2001 05:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Someone reccomended mixing AN and picric acid. Of course this could not be stored for a long time but it was claimed that it was quite powerfull. i wonder if adding the AN to molten picric acid and making a cast would work.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-06-2001 05:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
couldn't that form ammonium picrate which is a primary explosive?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 782
From: Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 07-06-2001 06:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As i said it wouldnt be stored. I wonder if there is a chemical that could be introduced that will stop the formation.
pyromaniac_guy
New Member
Posts: 33
From: us
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 07-06-2001 06:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
should I be worried about removing any residual water from the dnt or tnt? Also, anyone have any ideas about the shelf life of such a mixture?
TIA
FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 07-06-2001 07:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From my understanding (correct me if im wrong) but primary explosives are sensitive like AP and MF. From what ive heard, ammonium picrate is extremely insensitive.
cutefix
Frequent Poster
Posts: 330
From: california
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 07-07-2001 01:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ammonium Picrate is I think the only less sensitive salt of picric acid,even lesser than TNT.It was used during the war as explosive filler for armor piercing shells.
DNT being less nitrated have lesser explosive power than TNT.So if amatols are are made with the dinitro derivative its explosive potential will be degraded, not improved.
Therefore making such a mix is worthy only if the trinitroderivative is not available and there is no other choice.DNT was indeed used in industrial explosives(slurries,etc.) as sensitizer.I think Dupont made a product from it
That blend of AN/DNT/Al looks like similar to an explosive known as moleculite discussed in the Yarchive.
pyromaniac_guy
New Member
Posts: 33
From: us
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 07-07-2001 03:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do realize that dnt would be a less energetic choice than tnt, but isnt dnt's highly negative oxygen ballance compensated for by the an?
cutefix
Frequent Poster
Posts: 330
From: california
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 07-07-2001 04:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amatols based on TNT are usually in the 50/50 and 80/20 AN?TNT blend.If you will use the latter mix replacing TNT with DNT The explosive power will be lesser.The VOD of amatols decrease as the amount of TNT become lesser:it will be aggravated in the DNT case.If you add aluminum powder you can improve the blast effect but will more reduce its brisance.Aluminum also need oxygen also.Therefore more oxygen available does not generally mean more power and will not apply to all explosives.If you will realize RDX,HMX,PETN are powerful but oxygen deficient,even its blends like octol,cyclotol,pentolite are oxgen deficient but powerful.
[This message has been edited by cutefix (edited July 07, 2001).]
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-23-2001 09:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only problem of stability can come from the oxydation of Al by acidic moist NH4NO3! If all ingredients are wel dried stability is not a problem.
DNT is indeed less good than TNT but the idea is to improve the power and sensitivity of AN; and if you compare performances of AN/DNT mixes against ANFO's and ANNM you will see the sensitivity and power are better than ANFO and equal to that of ANNM.
Also for those who can't have access to highly conc HNO3 or H2SO4 or NM is is a good replacement!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
cutefix
Frequent Poster
Posts: 330
From: california
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 07-25-2001 01:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cast and granular explosives like the 50/50 and 80/20 amatols respectively does not contain volatile substances like NM so are more stable than ANNM.The defect is that due to the higher content of AN in 80/20 mixture it will be more sensitive to moisture;however because of the waxy characteristic of TNT or DNT it will coat the AN and it will be more shelf stable than ANNM if storability is compared(however the NM/AN explosive was not designed for storage but for immediate use.)