cellulosenitrate - Archive file

[megalomania]

wantsomfet
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From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 25, 2001 09:43 AM
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Just found this page about cellulosenitrate, maybe somone is intersted in this info...
The guy uses 70% HNO3 and seems to have good results.
<a href="http://www.powerlabs.org/nitrocellulose.htm" target="_blank">http://www.powerlabs.org/nitrocellulose.htm</a>
[This message has been edited by wantsomfet (edited January 25, 2001).]


simply RED
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From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 27, 2001 05:00 PM
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This mathereal for nitrocellulose is not true! CELLULOSE HEXANITRATE DO NOT EXIST!!!
There are 2 types of nitrocellulose useful for smokeless powder. Pyroxilin(trinitrocellulose) and Coloxilin(dinitrocellulose). The first can also be used as a brisant expploseive(transition from deflagration to detonation or direct initiation)...
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Machiavelli
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From: Germany
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posted January 27, 2001 05:49 PM
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"CELLULOSE HEXANITRATE DO NOT EXIST!!!"
Sure it doesn't exist, that's why the ATF has put it on its list of nonexistent explosive materials. May be a government conspiracy though... <a href="http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/listofexp.htm" target="_blank">http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/listofexp.htm</a>
And learn to fucking spell!


Mr Cool
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posted January 30, 2001 02:48 PM
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I thought it was always measured by the N percentage, due to the fact that a mixture of nitrates will always be produced.
BUT: Cellulose is a large polysaccharide molecule, and I find it very hard to believe that 3 nitro groups would be enough.


simply RED
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From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 31, 2001 05:39 PM
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Of course the cellulose is a macromolcule (polymer). It is made of D-glucose "groups" (C6 H10 O5)n. The number of these "groups" can go up to about 6000 (the "n" couldn't be more than 6000). One such monomer has only three OH groups which could be esterified {C6H7O2 (OH)3}n. That's why cellulose hexanitrate can't exist...The coloxylin(dinitrate form) is
{C6H7O2 OH (ONO2)2}n and the pyroxilin is {C6H7O2 (ONO2)3}n. Of course the whole molecule has (for example 5000x2...ONO2 groups)-{5000 monomers, clear coloxylin}....
The real nitrocecllulose is not clear coloxylin or pyroxylin, but always a mix of it.
btw: I made yesterday AP putty with home made nitric acid(from lead nitrate and H2SO4, I'm gonna post the recipe when have free time). And it worked well!
p.s. Hope this helps and sorry for the bad english...


simply RED
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From: HELL
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posted January 31, 2001 05:42 PM
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the nitrocellulose was with homemade nitric acid, of course hehhhehe


10fingers
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From: USA
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posted January 31, 2001 07:00 PM
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You know it's hard to have patience with people who were schooled in the english language but yet cannot make a coherent sentence.
But there are a lot of people on this forum to whom english is not their own language and they are immediately jumped on for mistakes in spelling or grammar, this is not only rude but arrogant.
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited January 31, 2001).]


pete
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From: u.k
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 01, 2001 04:41 PM
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Hello, l've beeen reading this site for a while and after following one of the links included in someones text i decided to make nitrocelluose. I have acess to small amounts of conc nitric and sulphuric acids, and simply follow the instructions given. I am currently taking chemistry at collage, so know how to hand these chemicals. The product nitrocelluose was powerful, lighting 3 grams producted a blinding flash and a low thud, like very fast burning, sound. Detonating it with a number 8 cap was impressive, it is a very powerful explosive.


blackadder
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From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 02, 2001 08:33 AM
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Hey, you sound pretty cool.
How much did you detonate with the #8 cap?

[This message has been edited by blackadder (edited February 02, 2001).]


pete
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From: u.k
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 02, 2001 04:55 PM
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I understand that we are all dreaming about these activities , so in my dream I rammed 17 grams into a 1 inch pipe. I as i packed in the last 5 grams or so i did it around the cap, I then fitted a plastic cap to the pipe, with a hole drilled into it for the caps fuze. The other end i had already crush sealed before loading the nitrocelluose, I was about 50 meters back from it when it went and felt the air wave it produced, quite a thrill.


Mr Cool
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posted February 02, 2001 05:59 PM
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sounds like fun!


ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 03, 2001 01:54 AM
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i just made some nitrocellulose with 98% h2so4, kno3, and a tampon. not mine. i just needed some cotton. When i added the kno3 it good warm even with an ice bath. Im just happy the nitration didnnt run away like last time. When all the kno3 was added,its was a almost solid slush. the kno3 had a hard time dissolving and it turned into hard chunks appon contact with acid so then needed to be scraped and crushed with a glass rod. It fumes alot when making though, and the yeild wasnt too great. The solution hasnt fully dissolved out of the acetone though. Ill post how it went.
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PYRO500
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From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 03, 2001 02:48 AM
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maybee beacuse tampons usualy have rayon in them, I use them for replacement rayon balls in my wick lighters. it is hellava lot cheaper and sometimes better


ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 03, 2001 02:57 AM
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i also used to q-tips. i didnt want to go to the pharmacy cause it was about 11:00 pm whn i did it and i wanted to experement with my nc befire it got too late. i didnt even weight the amount of cotton and whatever else was in there. but it worked out pretty good. Not as cheap as C9H18O6, but more powerfull.
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Explosives Archive


wantsomfet
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Posts: 233
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 03, 2001 03:25 PM
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This german text describes the industrial production of NC, and it says to wash the cotton before nitration to remove grease, oil, and other imopurities resulting in a better stability of the finished product.
Therefor the cotton is boiled under pressure for 2-6 hours in a 1%-3% sodiumhydroxide solution at 105-140 C. It refers also to the use of sodiumhypochlorite or calciumhypochlorite solution for the washing.
<a href="http://rocket-master.tripod.com/Homepage/Treibstoffe/NC.htm" target="_blank">http://rocket-master.tripod.com/Homepage/Treibstoffe/NC.htm</a>
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pete
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From: u.k
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posted February 03, 2001 04:03 PM
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I also wased my cotton before i nitrated it, in a solution of NaOH, this helps to stop the dreaded run away nitration, which can occur if u r not extreamly carefull.


Anthony
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From: England
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posted February 03, 2001 07:23 PM
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Surely the NaOH left on the cotton would neutralize some of the nitrating acid and be counter productive?


Mr Cool
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posted February 04, 2001 06:03 AM
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Runaway nitration will almost certainly not lead to detonation if you're making quantities less than about 1lb (although I wouldn't try it). It'll just make lots of nasty NO2 and splatter acid everywhere.


wantsomfet
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Posts: 233
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 04, 2001 08:12 AM
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Anthony, washing the cotton after washing it with NaOH is essential. Othewise it would neutralize some of the acid, as you said....
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SofaKing
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posted February 04, 2001 11:51 AM
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Washing the cotton before nitration with NaOH would saponify any grease and oils present in the cotton and allow them to dissolve. That would be important in the industrial process because the cotton being used might be less refined. However using cosmetic cotton balls this shouldn't be a problem.
[This message has been edited by SofaKing (edited February 04, 2001).]


simply RED
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From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 04, 2001 03:55 PM
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In the summer I made some nitrocellulose for first time(the greatest event for me that three months), but once I forgot to cool the selution and used 90%nitric and 98%sulfuric acid(the HNO3 was made by Pb(NO3)2 process , the batch started to fume red(the batch was about 30 grams and about 7 grams cotton) and then ignited. The whole flat was full with NO2.....If I hadn't gas mask(military one) I would be seriously poisoned. We abandoned the flat for three hours...


kingspaz
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Posts: 348
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 04, 2001 04:16 PM
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fuck. thats some accident....does anybody know where i could get a gas mask?
i wanted one for a while because they look cool and save ur life.


megalomania
Administrator
Posts: 651
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 06, 2001 08:39 AM
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My favorite safety company is Lab Safety Supply at labsafety.com There you will find great prices and lots of cool stuff (gloves, protective suits, masks, goggles,, waste disposal stuff, you name it). You can get a reasonably priced half-mask respirator, a full face will cost ya though. Also try out your local Army-Navy store, I got one of those arab surplus gas masks for $10 and it works great.
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pete
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From: u.k
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 06, 2001 04:13 PM
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Were did u aquire your lead nitrate?
[This message has been edited by pete (edited February 06, 2001).]


ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 06, 2001 09:09 PM
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if you puschase a gas-mask second hand, be sure to clean it with the appropriate chemicals before use.


Mr Cool
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From: None of your bloody business!
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posted February 07, 2001 06:55 AM
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NH4OH solution is a good thing to wash the NC in AFTER the nitration. I find it does a better job of neutralising the acid than NaHCO3 solution. (Maybe because the OH ion is smaller than the HCO3 ion, and therefore more easily absorbed? Just a thought.)
Also, NH4OH won't leave any residue in the dry product.


Mick
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From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 07, 2001 09:19 AM
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hmm
how would you test if a gas mask works?

cause i mean, your gunna find out the hard way if it don't....

[This message has been edited by Mick (edited February 07, 2001).]


wantsomfet
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Posts: 233
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 07, 2001 03:44 PM
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What about sniffin some vapours of household-ammonia or something with STRONG smell/gas-production (but not too harmful if gasmask fails...)
But if you have a still sealed filter and a used mask it will be no problem.
Using already opened/used filters wont be a good idea.
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MacCleod
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From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 07, 2001 08:58 PM
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I bought mine at an Army/Navy surplus also(mine was new!).But I never used it,want it nice and fresh if the ATF decides to visit unexpectedly!.I just bought a standard vapors/solvents resperator at Lowes;Tested it by mixing bleach,urea,and it worked fine!


nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1103
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 07, 2001 11:03 PM
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Ammonia isn't good for testing gas masks since they're not designed to stop it. Tear gas would be more appropriate. If you can't get tear gas, mix bleach with muriatic (HCl) acid to generate chlorine gas. That's an adequate test.
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blackadder
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Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 08, 2001 04:15 PM
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Yeah, I was messing around with some Chlorine gas a couple minutes ago, and it REALLY hurts when you inhale it (I didn't do it on purpose), you feel this pain inside you for a while, you can't breathe, your nose hurts, and if it gets in your eyes they will sting more than anything you can imagine.
There are poems about the Germans' chlorine and phosgene gassing, and the troops talk about how the eyes start writhing in their sockets, and they start choking and coughing up loads of blood. That sounds nasty!


simply RED
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Posts: 238
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 09, 2001 02:23 PM
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I found my gas mask in my house ... The lead netrate I bought from the local chem suplier

[yt2095]

Before anyone jumps down my throat, i figured this was the best place to post my question of all of the other places.

of late, my NC (gun cotton) has turned into a syrupy liquid?
there`s no longer any cotton to seperate. the same applies with my Nitro Starch, i get a jelly like goop?
it USED TO work great before!, the only thing i`ve changed is my Nitric acid, i ASSUME my NOW nitric is more conc as that was what i was aiming for.
i double distill my nitric second distillation it with half as much again of conc H2SO4.
other than that nothing has changed?
i then neautralise the Gooo in sodium bicarb (and by goodness it eats the bicarb up!)
then it goes a deep red/brown color after a few days left to evaporate, a bit like the color made when adding the sulphuric acid to purified aspirin with heat color.
the dried stuff will not dissolve in acetone to allow me to filter it either.
any ideas suggestions or persons with previous similarities?
all comments welcome (helpfull ones) :)

[vulture]

Did you dissolve your cotton first in H2SO4 by any chance and then added the HNO3?

BTW, simply red is right. Nitrocellulose and cellulosehexanitrate are wrong names. Cellulose is a polymer of pyranoses (cyclohexanesugars). Each cyclohexanering has 3OH groups which can be nitrated to form a trinitrated cyclohexanesugar.
Another correct name would be cellobiosehexanitrate, as a cellobiose unit is a part of a cellulose polymer consisting of two cyclohexanerings joined together by a 1,4 glycosidic linkage.

A structural formula of such a trinitrated cyclohexanesugar can be foundhere (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?action=attachment&tid=795&pid=6927).

[yt2095]

Vulture,
nope, i made it the same way i`ve always made it.
i mix the two acids 1`st to make a "nitrating mix"
THEN i add the washed cotton.
it simply just dissolves inro Goop syrupy sludge, and yet it never used to?

[anthracis]

Hi guys! This is my first post here, so it is very possible that I'll get some bad "looks" from you...English is not my native language but I'll do my best.
On topic: one of my friends managed to get a large quantity of NC from a chemical facility which produced NC for making nitrocellulose laquer. Some alcohol was added (not ethilic, I'm sure about...). So I had the chance to play around with this stuff, but I can't tell you anything new...Powerfull, indeed, easy to detonate with AP, HMTD, lead azide, silver acetylide (those were the primaries I used). Very good as a sensitiser for ammonium nitrate compositions.
Well, if you can't get NC from such a factory, I've noticed that ping-pong balls can give something very close to NC. As you know, basically they are made of NC (theoretically low- and medium nitrated) plastified with camphor. Camphor is soluble in many solvents but I've only tried ethilic alcohol. So cut as many ping-pong balls as you want in small pieces then put them in a water-tight container with plenty of ethilic alcohol. Let this to sit for a while, stirring from time to time. You may also heat the container on waterbath, to speed up the process. After a period (from hours to days) filter the pieces of plastic, let them dry and then you may use them as it is some sort of NC. I didn't tried to detonate this stuff, but surely it burned faster than the original plastic material, very much like NC.
The recovered ethilic alcohol has a strong smell of camphor and it can be used for several extractions of this kind.

[yt2095]

perhaps it`s Acetone you refer to?

which leaves me wondering if the low nitrated cellulose in PP balls after extraction couldn`t be used a precursor for a trinitrate? much in the same way as HDN to RDX transition.

certainly be ideal for someone (like myself) with little conc HNO3 but plenty acetone and access to bags of busted PP balls from a Youth Club worker friend of mine :)

[anthracis]

Of course it is not acetone but ethilic alcohol!...Acetone DISSOLVES that plastic and we want to dissolve only the added camphor...But you should be aware that it is impossible to extract the entire amount of camphor, as long as the alcohol doesn't penetrate deep the small pieces of ping-pong balls. So it would be a bad idea to further "nitrate" those pieces of camphor-depleted NC plastic, as a pretty large amount of camphor is still there.

[yt2095]

Whoa, chill out.

it was only an idea and I`ve never heard of ethilic alc before?
perhaps you could explain to me WHY further nitration would be a bad idea.
I don`t mind being wrong and told so, but if it`s backed up with a reason I appreciate it more.

all the best.

Edit: for us English speaking chemists, a search revealed that "ethilic alc" is in fact what we term plain old Ethanol.

[anthracis]

Well, "ethilic alcohol" it is also called "ethanol", but I see now that the second name is better known, perhaps because of the good old human tendency towards simple things :) There are many alcohols, as you know, ethanol is just one of them. I remember high-school, when we studied the alcohols, we've learned about their names also, and alternative was ethanol for ethilic a., methanol for metilic etc. You may call them both ways...

As I've said in my post before, ethanol doesn't extract the entire amount of camphor, so the concentrated acids (HNO3 and H2SO4) will react with/oxidize the remaining camphor (if at all the acids can penetrate the plastic) and nothing useful will result.

I guess the extraction of camphor may be improved by using mixtures of solvents (e.g. one to soften the plastic and other to extract the camphor). Ethanol with some acetone perhaps? Both mix with water so they should be compatible. A small amount of acetone diluted in ethanold won't dissolve the pieces of ping-pong balls but soften them. And the ethanol would be more effective in extracting camphor. This should be tested. :)

[yt2095]

No, not perhaps of anything "simple" at all, it`s Because English and plain talk is prefered, Ethilic alc as you call it only shows up in use on foreign websites and here is predominantly English.
I`m sure Ethyl Hydroxide is equaly valid, or DiHydrogen Monoxide but we`de sooner call it water here :)

would a nitrate of camphor be a bad thing? assuming that only a technical grade of NC was required. or does it play a role as an inhibitor in some way?
I seem to remember reading about the 1`st snooker/pool balls being made of NC and were quite brittle, and that subsequently it was discovered that the addition of camphor coutered this brittleness and that was its only role in NC product manufacture.