Alternative AP chemicals - Archive File

[megalomania]

Victim
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Posts: 11
From: Nottinghamshire
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-18-2001 06:39 PM
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My question is about getting a chemical so I guess it goes under the "Miscellaneous" section.
I'm from the UK, and don't have access to chemical supplies (sure I've got catalogs from companys but you need a credit card)
And wanting to make Acetone Peroxide, so I was wondering if you could use Brick Cleaner/Acid for a replacement of the Hydrochloric Acid? If not is there any other easy obtainable replacment for the Acid? I know the Acid is only a catlyst and have done a search on the post, and have read peoples post about what viniger would do to the mixture, and would just like to know if any one has tried this out?
Thankz for any input.

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c0deblue
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posted 06-18-2001 07:52 PM
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Most so-called "brick cleaner" of the sort used to clean the whitish stains left from mortar is sold under the name Muriatic Acid. Muriatic Acid *is* Hydrochloric Acid. It works just fine.


Victim
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From: Nottinghamshire
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posted 06-18-2001 07:55 PM
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Ok, will this sort of Acid lower the yield any?


Anthony
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posted 06-18-2001 11:44 PM
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As C0deblue said, the brick cleaner IS hydrochloric acid and will give you the same yield as lab grade stuff - since it's only a catalyst. It may not be as concentrated or as pure as HCl you'd find in a lab but it will work fine.


c0deblue
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posted 06-18-2001 11:48 PM
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Not at all - the acid merely facilitates the reaction. Muriatic/Hydrochloric Acid is the very product called for in most of the AP recipes. For exact information on proportions and yield (depending on H2O2 concentration and other variables), go back and do a little reading in the Explosive Peroxides forum and in the archives.
Sorry Anthony, looks like you replied just as I was composing mine.

[This message has been edited by c0deblue (edited June 18, 2001).]



Victim
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From: Nottinghamshire
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posted 06-19-2001 08:49 AM
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Ok will do some reading, thanks for all the input.
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"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."



J
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From: United Kingdom
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posted 06-19-2001 09:09 AM
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Does anyone know the rough concentration? The stuff sold in B&Q is only labelled as an irritant rather than corrosive, so I assume it's very low. Mind you, it is quite expensive for very diluted acid.
J

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Mr Cool
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posted 06-19-2001 01:09 PM
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Most are between 10% and 20%, with 10% being more common.


c0deblue
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posted 06-19-2001 01:09 PM
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Don't know about the product sold at B&Q, but here in the US, Muriatic acid concentrations vary from about 30% to 38% (the highest possible for HCl). Typical hardware store grade is 32% and is labelled "POISON - CAUSES SEVERE BURNS". A gallon goes for about $8.00.


10fingers
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posted 06-19-2001 01:45 PM
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Ditto on that. Hydrochloric/muriatic acid is sold for cleaning cement, brick etc. I don't think it is possible to get it any more concentrated than around 35%. Hydrochloric is hydrogen chloride gas mixed with water, it is not an acid until it is mixed with water.
I buy 28% HCL at a local DIY store for $2.50 per gallon. Too bad nitric acid isn't this cheap and readily available!


Mr Cool
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posted 06-19-2001 02:23 PM
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The strongest I've seen in the UK was in a little DIY store, and it was 32% IIRC.


kingspaz
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From: UK
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posted 06-19-2001 05:32 PM
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victim - i'm also from the uk, i use the H2SO4 from an old car battery and it seems to work fine. i make sure i wash the AP thouroughly though to try and reduce lead contaminants.


Victim
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Posts: 11
From: Nottinghamshire
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-21-2001 03:04 PM
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I've heard about this, and thought that the lead in the battery would have held to many contaminates for to be safley used as the acid in AP, but I suppose if you wash it well.. wouldeny boiling the acid and filtering it help remove some of the lead before you begin to make the AP reation? Just a suggestion.
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kingspaz
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posted 06-21-2001 05:29 PM
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yes that would remove some of the contaminents and also increase the concentration of the acid. the reason i don't do it is because i don't have anything to boil the acid in. i know acid severely corrodes metals but is stainless steel unreactive enough to hold H2SO4 long enough to boil it to a 90% concentration?


Anthony
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posted 06-21-2001 05:59 PM
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Stainless should do it. Pyrex works and so does glazed porcelain.


Victim
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From: Nottinghamshire
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posted 06-21-2001 07:29 PM
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Wouldent those camping "mess tins" hold the acid long enough to boil the acid? there stainless steal and hold about 2 pints, got a handel as well, shold be usefull.
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Teck
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posted 06-22-2001 02:10 AM
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Damn, just go steal or get a car battery, pour the acid into a jar let the lead particles settle, then pour it off through a filter. How hard is that. If you want to go all the way heat it till the water evaporates.
But diluted sulfuric acid still works in AP.



blackadder
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posted 06-24-2001 06:50 PM
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Just heat it up in a glass beaker/jar.


jin
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From: uk
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posted 06-24-2001 10:01 PM
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i posted a queston a few days ago, about converting hydrochloric acid to sulphuric acid by adding plaster of paris (caso4) to the hcl because the hcl is cheaper than h2so4 drain cleaner in the uk but it was deleted for some reason could you tell me why.
(Because all you're going to get is calcium chloride, not sulphuric acid. NBK2000)

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited June 25, 2001).]



J
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posted 06-25-2001 07:30 AM
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Victim, the mess-tins are Aluminium IIRC. I believe the H2SO4 would react with the tin to produce Al2(SO4)3 and Hydrogen gas.
J

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Victim
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From: Nottinghamshire
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posted 06-25-2001 08:41 AM
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Well the one that I have has "Stainless Steal" stamped onto it, although some Acids will react with steal just thought that you might be able to boil it up in one of thses, o well.


kingspaz
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From: UK
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posted 06-25-2001 05:36 PM
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well i tried to boil the H2SO4 in a stainless steel container. after heating for a about 30 seconds the solution began to turn green then it started bubbling like hell and kept on bubbling when i took it off the stove. i thought it was just water boiling off as the container was in a frying pan and heat from the pan was still being taken in. by now the solution was very dark green. finally it stopped bubbling and i was left with a hell of alot of what i think is chromium sulphate. also they was a dark black layer of somthing on the inside after i emptied the container.


Victim
New Member
Posts: 11
From: Nottinghamshire
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-25-2001 05:39 PM
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whats chromium sulphate, no results in search..? Is there anything that you can do with chromium sulphate?
[This message has been edited by Victim (edited June 25, 2001).]



jin
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From: uk
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posted 06-25-2001 06:54 PM
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i read somewhere stainless steel was only used for dilute nitric acid storage.

[This message has been edited by jin (edited June 25, 2001).]



Anthony
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posted 06-25-2001 08:33 PM
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Oopsie


kingspaz
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posted 06-26-2001 05:36 PM
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victim, stainless steel is an alloy of steel (or is it iron?) and chromium, alloy means 2 or more metallic elements mixed together (i'm starting off like this to make sure you understand)
anyways the acids react with metals to make hydrogen gas and the metal salt.
so, chromium (in the stainless steel) + sulfuric acid = hydrogen + chromium sulphate.
its not really usefull for our purposes although i'm sure it would probably be used in pottery as a colouring agent. i was going to right the symbol equation but chromium has a variable oxidation state doesn' it? and my brains dead.


deezs
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posted 07-08-2001 12:22 PM
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I know a good use for potassium-dichromate. This could be made from chromium-sulfate: add some carbonate to the chromium-sulfate solution, heat the precipitaion. Now you have Cr2O3. Melt this together with KNO3 and K2CO3 (1g Cr2O3, 2g K2CO3, 1g KNO3)
Dissolve it in water, and add some sulfuric acid. Let the K2Cr2O7 cristals to form.
Make saturated solution from these cristals, and add some concentrated sulfuric acid to it. Red CrO3 cristals will form. Filter them out with glass filter (the sulfuric acid dissolves the paper), and dry them.
If you add some alcohol to these cristals, it will light, like the glycerin with KMnO4. (that experiment is easier, but I don't like simple things.)
If you have other interesting experiments, please post them!

[Efraim_barkbit]

I´ve had no problem at all when using the acid directly from a car battery, no boiling and filtering at all, just use a larger quantity of acid. a good thing with less concentrated acid is that the mixture wont heat up as much when the acid is poured in.

if one wants to concentrate it, put it in a glass jar, and put the jar in a pot with water and put it on the stove. I´ve not done it, but I see no reason it wouldn´t work.

[Anthony]

Apart from that the water will boil at way too low a temperature to boil conc H2SO4.

And that the jar could well crack, and the resulting hydrolisation could cause a the water/acid to flash boil...

[kingspaz]

Efraim_barkbit, i've found from experience that a sand bath works quite well for the purpose of concentrating H2SO4 since it gives a nice even heat. an oil bath will also work though aswell.

why do people bother using conc. H2SO4 for making AP? why not just dilute it and then use it. thus no localised overheating of the solution.

[knowledgehungry]

SWIM uses conc H2SO4 because it works better with lower concentrations of H2O2.

[Efraim_barkbit]

OK, Anthony, I didn´t know that...
I dont think glass jars would crack if there is no sudden temperature change, atleast nothing has happened for me. but I guess it will always be the risk of it happening.

Kingspaz, how do you heat the sand bath? just put it in a pot?

I have to make some more primary soon, for use as det for ANNM(this stuff ROCKS:D), and I´m out of battery acid. I could probably get some HCl, but since I´ve got some 62% nitric lying around, I´m is thinking about using that instead.
I don´t have any conc. sulfuric, so I really don´t have any other use for it at the present time. (except for maybee trying to make some Na- or KNO3. just need more info about it´s manufacturing first)
would I need to take some special precations or something then, or should I just try to get HCl?
I´m also thinking about testing HMTD instead of AP, maybee both and do some comparing.
I´m getting a bit curious about it, because I have heard it to be more powerful and/or sensitive, as well as I have heard it to be less...:confused:
I guess there is no way to really know before I have tested and compared it myself.

[kingspaz]

'but since I´ve got some 62% nitric lying around, I´m is thinking about using that instead' - don't waste nitric acid on some crappy AP. there is also the possibility of side reactions as the nitric could possibly oxidise the AP formed. just buy some HCl or go to the dump and get another battery (charge it first to liberate as much acid as possible).

as for the sand bath... i used a deep pan and put some sand in the bottom. then i put a jam jar in and put some sand around it. problems you have to watch for are the acid boiling over the sides of the jam jar into the sand in which case it boils instantly making a cloud of H2SO4. it will also splatter H2SO4 coated sand everywhere. its best to use a large container to hold the acid and boil a small amount at a time. once the sand is up to temperature it should just be a matter of applying heat every so often to maintain a steady boil.