megalomania
June 21st, 2003, 01:51 PM
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-21-2001 05:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well i was reading through something about car batteries on my computer on the comptons encylopedia and i found this:
The 12-volt battery commonly used in automobiles has six 2-volt cells connected in series. The electrolyte is dilute sulfuric acid. Each electrode is made of connected plates. Between the two sets of plates are thin separators made of wood, glass, or plastic that do not enter into the chemical reaction. The separators are porous so that electrolyte can flow around the plates.
Each plate has a framework, or grid, made of a hard alloy of lead and antimony. The grid of a new positive plate is filled with lead dioxide (PbO2). The negative plate contains spongy metallic lead.
Lead dioxide attracts electrons more strongly than metallic lead and starts drawing current when the external circuit is closed. This leaves lead ions (Pb++) in the negative plate. Each of these ions draws a sulfate ion (SO4=) from the solution, making lead sulfate (PbSO4) in the negative plate.
This leaves free in the solution two hydrogen (2H+) ions for each sulfate ion withdrawn. Oxygen ions released by the lead dioxide join the hydrogen ions, forming molecules of water (H2O). This action keeps the positive plate clear to draw current. Since there is no polarization, the battery works as long as any acid is left to furnish sulfate ions and until each plate contains lead sulfate only. Once this condition is reached, the battery can be recharged by sending current through it in reverse. This changes lead sulfate in the plates back to lead dioxide and spongy lead and restores acid to the solution.
So this means that if you charge the car battery before you extract the acid then you'll get acid of a higher concentration and purity
mongo blongo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 175
From: I live in a Creosote Bush!
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-21-2001 08:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think that sounds right the battery should be charged and is not much use after the battery has been used.but i think u can buy it from gararges for electrolite topp ups (u know then just boil it)
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 415
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-21-2001 09:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a good point to bring up. If you try to get sulfuric acid from a dead battery you will not get much. Car batteries that have been discarded usually have little sulfuric acid in them. Plus it will have lead contaminants in it.
It is much better to go buy battery electrolyte from an auto parts supplier. From 5 gallons you can get 1.6 gallons of conc. acid.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-22-2001 04:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks guys. my biggest problem however at the moment is not a matter of chemicals but equipment. i've been searching second-hand shops and car boot sales for a glass pan to boil acids in. i can't find anywhere in the uk that will send things to individual.
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 415
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-22-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go to a 2nd hand store and buy a glass coffee pot. These work well but to be safe only place a small quantity in the pot the first time in case it breaks. Heat the acid until it is giving off dense white smoke, continue this for about 15 minutes. DO NOT touch or move the pot until the acid has cooled down. One the worst things you could possibly get on yourself is hot sulfuric acid.
Always check the pot for small cracks after each use and discard it if you find any.
jin
Frequent Poster
Posts: 113
From: uk
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-22-2001 07:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you can get large pyrex pans from index or argos.you can boil sulphuric acid to a high concentration in them.
[This message has been edited by jin (edited June 22, 2001).]
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-22-2001 08:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kingspaz last time I concentrated some H2SO4 I used a 1L Pyrex measuring jug. It's got a scale on the side, a pouring sout and will take any heat you can give it. Cost was a few quid from a supermarket. You can get pyrex in shapes and sizes from jugs to dishs, bowls, cylindrical doodads that are like beakers etc etc. It's all over the place I can't beleive you can't find something suitable.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-23-2001 04:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks guys. i've looke in index but i couldn't find anything. i'll keep looking though.
anthony, on another post i asked if stainless steel would work. anyways you said it should work and i tried it today and it didn't. however it did make alot of what i guess to be chromium sulphate. well whatever it was it was very dark green. when i emptied the container it was severly corroded. oh well i'll have to keep searching for somthing glass.
Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 228
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-23-2001 04:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got mine from Wilkinsons. Even though it is Pyrex, make sure you don't 'shock' it. I placed mine on a cold tile and guess what?
D'oh!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-24-2001 09:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm, I *thought* stainless was acid resistant, although I may have been thinking of aluminium which is *apparently* HNO3 resistant. A good example of why you should check things people say and not trust my dodgy memory In theory a cheap teflon coated saucepan should be able to handle just about anything (as long as none runs down the side) although I managed to strip the teflon off a pan with a sodium bicarbonate solution!
Argos sell a glass "chopping board" for less than £5, I think it's worth having as it's stopped me burning holes in my workbench with acid/hot pyrex.
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 415
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-24-2001 11:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are different types of stainless steel, magnetic and nonmagnetic. I think the latter is resistant to nitric acid. In KIPE 2 it describes how to make a nitric acid still, in this he uses type 316 stainless steel tubing.
Aluminum is resistant to nitric acid at lower temps but not at temps required for distillation.
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited June 25, 2001).]
Tony Montana
Frequent Poster
Posts: 145
From: Australia
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-25-2001 03:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have concentrated battery acid numerous times, since its one of the only practical ways I have of obtaining H2SO4. You do not need exotic glassware for this one, I like the suggestion about the coffe pot though. In the past I used a large pasta sauce jar, it had an approximate measure down the side, and was made from thick glass.
I filled a frying pan with oil and put a home made stand in it so the jar did no rest on the bottom of the pan. Out of a new battery expect to yeild 1/4 of what you started with, canning jars can also be purchased very cheaply. And they are heavy duty glass, they hold boiling acids no worries(or none yet).
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-25-2001 05:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well i think the stainless holds it at lower temperature because it started to foam and bubble once the temperature increased. does the non-stick coating on pans get eaten by acid. these pans are available everywhere...i could use a big coffe jar i have but i want something that i can trust not to shatter everywhere because i don't want to take the risk of getting concentrated, 100* H2SO4 on me. thats got to be the one of the worst things you could spill on your self.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-25-2001 08:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From my experience jars don't explode if over heated (only to that if badly "shocked") but just crack. Having an even heat source, not like a flame directly on the base of the jar (that does crack it) but like an oil bath or something it should be ok.
Tony Montana
Frequent Poster
Posts: 145
From: Australia
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-26-2001 01:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only way to crack your jar is to put some icy-cold acid in it and quickly submerge it in some intensly hot oil.When heating oil have jar in it from the start.Or drop it, as I said most canning, pasta jars are thick hence; it takes a very big accident like dropping it on cement to break it. I cant see why a 5 or 6 buck jar would not be the logical answer for someone in your position. Concentrating sulfuric acid would NOT be logical in ANY bare metal(uncoated or untreated)recepticle.
Kingspaz: In short use your head, not your keyboard!!!
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-26-2001 05:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tony, i didn't think stainless would hold it but i wasn't 100% sure since it is quite unreactive. on another topic anthony thought it should work so that kind of persuaded me to try it. i think i'll make an oil bath and use a coffee jar as you said i have a deep pan so it should be ok if i suspend the jar with wires so as to avoid direct conduction from the pan base.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-26-2001 08:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Years ago I cracked many jars boiling liquids directly over and alcohol burner.
The base of the pan should spread the heat so it should be ok resting on the bottom, although being suspended would be more even heating. Depends what's practical really, it mgiht be a bit unstable dangling from wires?
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 415
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-26-2001 08:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To get high concentration sulfuric acid you have to heat it until it begins to decompose. This about 330 C, or 626 F. Not too many canning jars etc. can take that temp. The Pyrex type glass bowls or coffee pots are so plentiful in second hand stores etc. that anyone could find a truckload of them in half a day.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-02-2001 04:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well i tried the oil bath thing. what i did was suspend a cup in a deep pan with copper tube. the cup won't move and does not touch the pans surface. then i filled the pan half way with oil and put dilute H2SO4 in the cup. i heated it and the water began to boil off. everything worked fine until my stove ran out of petrol ehich really pissed me off. but the main part is that it worked fine and i'll finish it tomorrow. thanks alot for all the info guys
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 415
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-02-2001 05:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It just amazes me how long some of you guys will stick to a bad idea. What you are trying to do is so fucking simple and yet you persist in trying to do it in the most complicated way you can come up with.
Oil will begin to smoke heavily and may even catch fire long before you reach the temperature sufficient to drive off all the moisture from the sulfuric acid.
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited July 02, 2001).]
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-02-2001 05:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry 10fingers, i used cooking oil. i know its simple to do but i want to do it safely.
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-21-2001 05:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well i was reading through something about car batteries on my computer on the comptons encylopedia and i found this:
The 12-volt battery commonly used in automobiles has six 2-volt cells connected in series. The electrolyte is dilute sulfuric acid. Each electrode is made of connected plates. Between the two sets of plates are thin separators made of wood, glass, or plastic that do not enter into the chemical reaction. The separators are porous so that electrolyte can flow around the plates.
Each plate has a framework, or grid, made of a hard alloy of lead and antimony. The grid of a new positive plate is filled with lead dioxide (PbO2). The negative plate contains spongy metallic lead.
Lead dioxide attracts electrons more strongly than metallic lead and starts drawing current when the external circuit is closed. This leaves lead ions (Pb++) in the negative plate. Each of these ions draws a sulfate ion (SO4=) from the solution, making lead sulfate (PbSO4) in the negative plate.
This leaves free in the solution two hydrogen (2H+) ions for each sulfate ion withdrawn. Oxygen ions released by the lead dioxide join the hydrogen ions, forming molecules of water (H2O). This action keeps the positive plate clear to draw current. Since there is no polarization, the battery works as long as any acid is left to furnish sulfate ions and until each plate contains lead sulfate only. Once this condition is reached, the battery can be recharged by sending current through it in reverse. This changes lead sulfate in the plates back to lead dioxide and spongy lead and restores acid to the solution.
So this means that if you charge the car battery before you extract the acid then you'll get acid of a higher concentration and purity
mongo blongo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 175
From: I live in a Creosote Bush!
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-21-2001 08:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think that sounds right the battery should be charged and is not much use after the battery has been used.but i think u can buy it from gararges for electrolite topp ups (u know then just boil it)
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 415
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-21-2001 09:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a good point to bring up. If you try to get sulfuric acid from a dead battery you will not get much. Car batteries that have been discarded usually have little sulfuric acid in them. Plus it will have lead contaminants in it.
It is much better to go buy battery electrolyte from an auto parts supplier. From 5 gallons you can get 1.6 gallons of conc. acid.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-22-2001 04:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks guys. my biggest problem however at the moment is not a matter of chemicals but equipment. i've been searching second-hand shops and car boot sales for a glass pan to boil acids in. i can't find anywhere in the uk that will send things to individual.
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 415
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-22-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go to a 2nd hand store and buy a glass coffee pot. These work well but to be safe only place a small quantity in the pot the first time in case it breaks. Heat the acid until it is giving off dense white smoke, continue this for about 15 minutes. DO NOT touch or move the pot until the acid has cooled down. One the worst things you could possibly get on yourself is hot sulfuric acid.
Always check the pot for small cracks after each use and discard it if you find any.
jin
Frequent Poster
Posts: 113
From: uk
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-22-2001 07:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you can get large pyrex pans from index or argos.you can boil sulphuric acid to a high concentration in them.
[This message has been edited by jin (edited June 22, 2001).]
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-22-2001 08:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kingspaz last time I concentrated some H2SO4 I used a 1L Pyrex measuring jug. It's got a scale on the side, a pouring sout and will take any heat you can give it. Cost was a few quid from a supermarket. You can get pyrex in shapes and sizes from jugs to dishs, bowls, cylindrical doodads that are like beakers etc etc. It's all over the place I can't beleive you can't find something suitable.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-23-2001 04:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks guys. i've looke in index but i couldn't find anything. i'll keep looking though.
anthony, on another post i asked if stainless steel would work. anyways you said it should work and i tried it today and it didn't. however it did make alot of what i guess to be chromium sulphate. well whatever it was it was very dark green. when i emptied the container it was severly corroded. oh well i'll have to keep searching for somthing glass.
Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 228
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-23-2001 04:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got mine from Wilkinsons. Even though it is Pyrex, make sure you don't 'shock' it. I placed mine on a cold tile and guess what?
D'oh!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-24-2001 09:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm, I *thought* stainless was acid resistant, although I may have been thinking of aluminium which is *apparently* HNO3 resistant. A good example of why you should check things people say and not trust my dodgy memory In theory a cheap teflon coated saucepan should be able to handle just about anything (as long as none runs down the side) although I managed to strip the teflon off a pan with a sodium bicarbonate solution!
Argos sell a glass "chopping board" for less than £5, I think it's worth having as it's stopped me burning holes in my workbench with acid/hot pyrex.
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 415
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-24-2001 11:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are different types of stainless steel, magnetic and nonmagnetic. I think the latter is resistant to nitric acid. In KIPE 2 it describes how to make a nitric acid still, in this he uses type 316 stainless steel tubing.
Aluminum is resistant to nitric acid at lower temps but not at temps required for distillation.
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited June 25, 2001).]
Tony Montana
Frequent Poster
Posts: 145
From: Australia
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-25-2001 03:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have concentrated battery acid numerous times, since its one of the only practical ways I have of obtaining H2SO4. You do not need exotic glassware for this one, I like the suggestion about the coffe pot though. In the past I used a large pasta sauce jar, it had an approximate measure down the side, and was made from thick glass.
I filled a frying pan with oil and put a home made stand in it so the jar did no rest on the bottom of the pan. Out of a new battery expect to yeild 1/4 of what you started with, canning jars can also be purchased very cheaply. And they are heavy duty glass, they hold boiling acids no worries(or none yet).
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-25-2001 05:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well i think the stainless holds it at lower temperature because it started to foam and bubble once the temperature increased. does the non-stick coating on pans get eaten by acid. these pans are available everywhere...i could use a big coffe jar i have but i want something that i can trust not to shatter everywhere because i don't want to take the risk of getting concentrated, 100* H2SO4 on me. thats got to be the one of the worst things you could spill on your self.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-25-2001 08:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From my experience jars don't explode if over heated (only to that if badly "shocked") but just crack. Having an even heat source, not like a flame directly on the base of the jar (that does crack it) but like an oil bath or something it should be ok.
Tony Montana
Frequent Poster
Posts: 145
From: Australia
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-26-2001 01:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only way to crack your jar is to put some icy-cold acid in it and quickly submerge it in some intensly hot oil.When heating oil have jar in it from the start.Or drop it, as I said most canning, pasta jars are thick hence; it takes a very big accident like dropping it on cement to break it. I cant see why a 5 or 6 buck jar would not be the logical answer for someone in your position. Concentrating sulfuric acid would NOT be logical in ANY bare metal(uncoated or untreated)recepticle.
Kingspaz: In short use your head, not your keyboard!!!
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-26-2001 05:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tony, i didn't think stainless would hold it but i wasn't 100% sure since it is quite unreactive. on another topic anthony thought it should work so that kind of persuaded me to try it. i think i'll make an oil bath and use a coffee jar as you said i have a deep pan so it should be ok if i suspend the jar with wires so as to avoid direct conduction from the pan base.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-26-2001 08:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Years ago I cracked many jars boiling liquids directly over and alcohol burner.
The base of the pan should spread the heat so it should be ok resting on the bottom, although being suspended would be more even heating. Depends what's practical really, it mgiht be a bit unstable dangling from wires?
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 415
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-26-2001 08:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To get high concentration sulfuric acid you have to heat it until it begins to decompose. This about 330 C, or 626 F. Not too many canning jars etc. can take that temp. The Pyrex type glass bowls or coffee pots are so plentiful in second hand stores etc. that anyone could find a truckload of them in half a day.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-02-2001 04:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well i tried the oil bath thing. what i did was suspend a cup in a deep pan with copper tube. the cup won't move and does not touch the pans surface. then i filled the pan half way with oil and put dilute H2SO4 in the cup. i heated it and the water began to boil off. everything worked fine until my stove ran out of petrol ehich really pissed me off. but the main part is that it worked fine and i'll finish it tomorrow. thanks alot for all the info guys
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 415
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-02-2001 05:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It just amazes me how long some of you guys will stick to a bad idea. What you are trying to do is so fucking simple and yet you persist in trying to do it in the most complicated way you can come up with.
Oil will begin to smoke heavily and may even catch fire long before you reach the temperature sufficient to drive off all the moisture from the sulfuric acid.
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited July 02, 2001).]
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-02-2001 05:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry 10fingers, i used cooking oil. i know its simple to do but i want to do it safely.