megalomania
June 21st, 2003, 04:06 PM
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 267
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-28-2001 03:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had always wanted to start this topic,a counter explosive preparation...I believe decomposition isn't the right word but basically how is it to turn HE into scrap/ non explosive anymore.....I read long ago the procedure for NG, but it's gone somewhere..
ahh,Nitroglycerin can be destroyed by boiling in a solution of potassium or sodium hydroxide and ethyl alcohol. (the great MEGA)
Does anyone has the database of lists of methods to change HE chemical properties to a non-explosive substance?
ps, interesting link for NI3 (is it me? can't tell)
http://boyles.sdsmt.edu/triiodide/explosive_decomposition.htm
[This message has been edited by frostfire (edited June 28, 2001).]
mongo blongo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 175
From: I live in a Creosote Bush!
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-28-2001 05:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
is this just out of interest?
do you mean to safely dispose of an explosive?
i remember reading something about a strain of bacteria has been produced by the army or bomb squad or something to eat away and decompose explosives safely and environmently friendly.( not practical)
i suppose its possible to, as you say, to deompose or safely dispose any explosive.
obveously there would be different procedures for each exolosive.
one that i know of is to dispose of lead azide. you mix celic ammonium nitrate to it(im not sure about the "celic" bit but it's something like that)
do a search on the net for safety cards. It should give disposal procedures for what ever explosive you seek.
hope this is usefull?
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 267
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-28-2001 07:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey thanks alot,
I've never heard some of them so it is in fact useful, although I haven't found anything particular with the keyword
cutefix
Frequent Poster
Posts: 330
From: california
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-30-2001 04:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During nuclear disarmament,conventional explosive boosters found in Russian missile warheads were recycled to commercial explosives.This is indeed a worthwhile way than allowing it to biodegrade, or make it inert in some form of chemical decomposition.This latter procedure will create difficult to dispose residues ,and pose health hazards.Just think of the fact that most of older military explosives contain aromatic derivatives which are carcinogenic and slow to degrade.Even RDX and HMX are potential health hazards.The energy locked in surplus and waste energetic materials are enormous and should not be wasted by throwing in a dump an letting microbes decompose it; why not dispose it by blowing it up in a safe place in front of safely located audience and film the explosion.Hollywood could well authenticate their special effects,by using real explosives and not fuels!Majority of humanity are impressed by explosions.But many are afraid of it because of ignorance!
The state should amply educate its citizens and remove the mystique of explosives by doing that. It can be a good souce of tourist entertainment creating additional income for a certain locality that practices it.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1513
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-30-2001 12:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, what if you did something you shouldnt have and need a way to get rid of your chems safely, this is what I think FF had in mind.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 267
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-01-2001 09:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VERY TRUE!!
and I need access to destroy AP fasttt (not by decomposition!)
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1513
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-02-2001 12:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ap you could just flush, although if it got caught in a clog and you drained your pipes someday and it was still there you could have a sewage pipe explosion, needless to say this is not pretty and it dosent smell pretty either, so I wouldn't recomend that unless they were knocking at your door. I think ap is semi soulable in acetone so you could take a large amount of acetone pour your ap in there and dump it on some land, it would then soak in the soil and evaporate and leave the ap behind, although this could cause a problem for smokers that like to throw their cigarettes on the ground you can deflagrate it fairly safely when wet although this does leave some behind.
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 07-02-2001 03:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
simply disolve the AP in some acetone, and then poor the acetone on the ground and burn it.
simple and effective.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 267
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-02-2001 11:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
aye, why didn't I think of that, thanks Mick
only, I'm kinda environmentalist and seek for the "best" way...
anyway, we got nitro and AP, anyone can add other exp method to the list?
I'm also still searching in libraries and searchengines....to whom who has the complete Urbanski series, does the book cover such exposive conversion process?
John456
Frequent Poster
Posts: 105
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 07-02-2001 12:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The approved method of destroying TNT is by burning it.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1013
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 07-02-2001 04:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I bet many could be oxidised by HNO3 or dehydrated by H2SO4 at high temps., but then you have the waste to get rid of...
I'd say burn them in small amounts.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1513
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-02-2001 09:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I for one would not add ap TO H2SO4
Lagen
Frequent Poster
Posts: 178
From:
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 07-02-2001 11:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All that the Urbanski books have to say about explosives disposal deals with MF, lead azide, DDNP and tetryl. But maybe I've missed something, I don't have Vol.4... Anyways, now for vols. 1-3:
Tetryl reacts with excess of sodium sulfiDE (in the form of a 13% solution). Even at normal temperature the nitro groups are reduced to yield a nonexplosive compound. This reaction can be used to dispose of tetryl containing wastes.
A 10% solution of sodium sulfiTE is capable of reducing tetryl to a nonexplosive compound at a temperature of 80-90°C. A similar reaction proceeds with sodium thiosulfate, which yields a residue, yellow in colour, of uncertain composition.
Mercury fulminate is decomposed by means of a sodium thiosulfate solution:
(CNO)2Hg + 2 Na2S2O3 + 2 H2O = HgS4O6 + (CN)2 + 4 NaOH
This process is suitable for quantitative assay of MF by titration of the resulting sodium hydroxide solution. It can also be used for disposing of MF containing waste and residues. The usual impurities contained in the MF (oxalate and nitrate) are insoluble in thiosulfate.
Lead azide is destroyed by a dilute solution of sodium nitrite in weak nitric or acetic acid, the decomposition products being soluble therein. To dispose of residual and waste lead azide, an 8% solution of sodium nitrite in 15% nitric acid is used.
An aqueous suspension of lead azide can be oxidised by cerium(IV) sulfate, which is accompanied by liberation of nitrogen:
Pb(N3)2 + 2 Ce(SO4)2 = PbSO4 + Ce2(SO4)3 + 3 N2
This reaction is also suitable for quantitative assay of lead azide.
Diazodinitrophenol (DDNP) cannot be decomposed by concentrated acids at normal temperature. However, a dilute solution of NaOH (e.g. 0.5%) causes its decomposition even at normal temperature, with liberation of nitrogen. This can be used to dispose of it.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 267
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-03-2001 04:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey Lagen,
I owe you man!
THANXSSS
anything else?
'n thanks for the other too!!!
[This message has been edited by frostfire (edited July 03, 2001).]
Lagen
Frequent Poster
Posts: 178
From:
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 07-05-2001 04:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One more I could remember - according to Gerald L. Hurst, this is the
"Picatinny Arsenal standard method for the destruction
of picric acid:
Dissolve the material in 25x its weight of a solution
made of 1 part NaOH and 21 parts Na2S.9H2O (Na sulfide)
in 200 parts water. The reaction gives off some ammonia
and hydrogen sulfide.
The recipe is somewhat generic in nature. With some
modifications, the general chemistry can be used to
dispose of certain other R-(NO2)x and R-(ONO2)x compounds,
but a specific, tested standard procedure should be used
for each material."
And he recommends lighting a bonfire from a safe distance as the most convenient method for "most" explosives.
I'm aware that in the Urbanski books they give a lot of other destructive reactions for almost every material, but I couldn't find any more that would be specifically designated as disposal methods. I guess usually either the process, or the products are not benign enough (e.g. picric acid -> picramic acid, chlorpicrine, HCN etc.)
Lagen
Frequent Poster
Posts: 178
From:
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 07-05-2001 06:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I noticed that the procedure I gave for lead azide might well be what mongo blongo had in mind - cerium(IV) sulfate is also called ceric sulphate (celic-ceric???)
Frequent Poster
Posts: 267
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-28-2001 03:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had always wanted to start this topic,a counter explosive preparation...I believe decomposition isn't the right word but basically how is it to turn HE into scrap/ non explosive anymore.....I read long ago the procedure for NG, but it's gone somewhere..
ahh,Nitroglycerin can be destroyed by boiling in a solution of potassium or sodium hydroxide and ethyl alcohol. (the great MEGA)
Does anyone has the database of lists of methods to change HE chemical properties to a non-explosive substance?
ps, interesting link for NI3 (is it me? can't tell)
http://boyles.sdsmt.edu/triiodide/explosive_decomposition.htm
[This message has been edited by frostfire (edited June 28, 2001).]
mongo blongo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 175
From: I live in a Creosote Bush!
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-28-2001 05:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
is this just out of interest?
do you mean to safely dispose of an explosive?
i remember reading something about a strain of bacteria has been produced by the army or bomb squad or something to eat away and decompose explosives safely and environmently friendly.( not practical)
i suppose its possible to, as you say, to deompose or safely dispose any explosive.
obveously there would be different procedures for each exolosive.
one that i know of is to dispose of lead azide. you mix celic ammonium nitrate to it(im not sure about the "celic" bit but it's something like that)
do a search on the net for safety cards. It should give disposal procedures for what ever explosive you seek.
hope this is usefull?
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 267
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-28-2001 07:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey thanks alot,
I've never heard some of them so it is in fact useful, although I haven't found anything particular with the keyword
cutefix
Frequent Poster
Posts: 330
From: california
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-30-2001 04:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During nuclear disarmament,conventional explosive boosters found in Russian missile warheads were recycled to commercial explosives.This is indeed a worthwhile way than allowing it to biodegrade, or make it inert in some form of chemical decomposition.This latter procedure will create difficult to dispose residues ,and pose health hazards.Just think of the fact that most of older military explosives contain aromatic derivatives which are carcinogenic and slow to degrade.Even RDX and HMX are potential health hazards.The energy locked in surplus and waste energetic materials are enormous and should not be wasted by throwing in a dump an letting microbes decompose it; why not dispose it by blowing it up in a safe place in front of safely located audience and film the explosion.Hollywood could well authenticate their special effects,by using real explosives and not fuels!Majority of humanity are impressed by explosions.But many are afraid of it because of ignorance!
The state should amply educate its citizens and remove the mystique of explosives by doing that. It can be a good souce of tourist entertainment creating additional income for a certain locality that practices it.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1513
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-30-2001 12:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, what if you did something you shouldnt have and need a way to get rid of your chems safely, this is what I think FF had in mind.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 267
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-01-2001 09:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VERY TRUE!!
and I need access to destroy AP fasttt (not by decomposition!)
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1513
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-02-2001 12:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ap you could just flush, although if it got caught in a clog and you drained your pipes someday and it was still there you could have a sewage pipe explosion, needless to say this is not pretty and it dosent smell pretty either, so I wouldn't recomend that unless they were knocking at your door. I think ap is semi soulable in acetone so you could take a large amount of acetone pour your ap in there and dump it on some land, it would then soak in the soil and evaporate and leave the ap behind, although this could cause a problem for smokers that like to throw their cigarettes on the ground you can deflagrate it fairly safely when wet although this does leave some behind.
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 07-02-2001 03:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
simply disolve the AP in some acetone, and then poor the acetone on the ground and burn it.
simple and effective.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 267
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-02-2001 11:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
aye, why didn't I think of that, thanks Mick
only, I'm kinda environmentalist and seek for the "best" way...
anyway, we got nitro and AP, anyone can add other exp method to the list?
I'm also still searching in libraries and searchengines....to whom who has the complete Urbanski series, does the book cover such exposive conversion process?
John456
Frequent Poster
Posts: 105
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 07-02-2001 12:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The approved method of destroying TNT is by burning it.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1013
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 07-02-2001 04:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I bet many could be oxidised by HNO3 or dehydrated by H2SO4 at high temps., but then you have the waste to get rid of...
I'd say burn them in small amounts.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1513
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-02-2001 09:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I for one would not add ap TO H2SO4
Lagen
Frequent Poster
Posts: 178
From:
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 07-02-2001 11:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All that the Urbanski books have to say about explosives disposal deals with MF, lead azide, DDNP and tetryl. But maybe I've missed something, I don't have Vol.4... Anyways, now for vols. 1-3:
Tetryl reacts with excess of sodium sulfiDE (in the form of a 13% solution). Even at normal temperature the nitro groups are reduced to yield a nonexplosive compound. This reaction can be used to dispose of tetryl containing wastes.
A 10% solution of sodium sulfiTE is capable of reducing tetryl to a nonexplosive compound at a temperature of 80-90°C. A similar reaction proceeds with sodium thiosulfate, which yields a residue, yellow in colour, of uncertain composition.
Mercury fulminate is decomposed by means of a sodium thiosulfate solution:
(CNO)2Hg + 2 Na2S2O3 + 2 H2O = HgS4O6 + (CN)2 + 4 NaOH
This process is suitable for quantitative assay of MF by titration of the resulting sodium hydroxide solution. It can also be used for disposing of MF containing waste and residues. The usual impurities contained in the MF (oxalate and nitrate) are insoluble in thiosulfate.
Lead azide is destroyed by a dilute solution of sodium nitrite in weak nitric or acetic acid, the decomposition products being soluble therein. To dispose of residual and waste lead azide, an 8% solution of sodium nitrite in 15% nitric acid is used.
An aqueous suspension of lead azide can be oxidised by cerium(IV) sulfate, which is accompanied by liberation of nitrogen:
Pb(N3)2 + 2 Ce(SO4)2 = PbSO4 + Ce2(SO4)3 + 3 N2
This reaction is also suitable for quantitative assay of lead azide.
Diazodinitrophenol (DDNP) cannot be decomposed by concentrated acids at normal temperature. However, a dilute solution of NaOH (e.g. 0.5%) causes its decomposition even at normal temperature, with liberation of nitrogen. This can be used to dispose of it.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 267
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-03-2001 04:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey Lagen,
I owe you man!
THANXSSS
anything else?
'n thanks for the other too!!!
[This message has been edited by frostfire (edited July 03, 2001).]
Lagen
Frequent Poster
Posts: 178
From:
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 07-05-2001 04:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One more I could remember - according to Gerald L. Hurst, this is the
"Picatinny Arsenal standard method for the destruction
of picric acid:
Dissolve the material in 25x its weight of a solution
made of 1 part NaOH and 21 parts Na2S.9H2O (Na sulfide)
in 200 parts water. The reaction gives off some ammonia
and hydrogen sulfide.
The recipe is somewhat generic in nature. With some
modifications, the general chemistry can be used to
dispose of certain other R-(NO2)x and R-(ONO2)x compounds,
but a specific, tested standard procedure should be used
for each material."
And he recommends lighting a bonfire from a safe distance as the most convenient method for "most" explosives.
I'm aware that in the Urbanski books they give a lot of other destructive reactions for almost every material, but I couldn't find any more that would be specifically designated as disposal methods. I guess usually either the process, or the products are not benign enough (e.g. picric acid -> picramic acid, chlorpicrine, HCN etc.)
Lagen
Frequent Poster
Posts: 178
From:
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 07-05-2001 06:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I noticed that the procedure I gave for lead azide might well be what mongo blongo had in mind - cerium(IV) sulfate is also called ceric sulphate (celic-ceric???)