Dinitrate of Hexamine - Archive File

[megalomania]

Detonator
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Posts: 132
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 25, 2001 02:47 AM
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When you treat hexamine with less than 70% NA you will have dinitrate of Hexamine !
Could anyone post more info about this explosive?




Detonator
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Posts: 132
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 26, 2001 01:57 AM
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What's up? no one has info about it?
Common guys.
BTW NA less than 70% would it work?
Do you have to maintain the ratio that is used in making RDX and the heat?



10fingers
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Posts: 442
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 26, 2001 06:19 PM
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The procedure for making hexamine dinitrate is in KIPE 2. Theres a link to it in the some of the posts by wantsomfet. I think it's catfood.tsx.org.
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited February 26, 2001).]



Detonator
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Posts: 132
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 28, 2001 01:40 AM
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Any information about this HE??????????????



simply RED
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Posts: 238
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 28, 2001 08:49 AM
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I really don't know anything about this.
I'm also very interested.


shady mutha
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Posts: 149
From: australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 28, 2001 10:14 PM
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Hexamethylenetetramine dinitrate(hexamine dinitrate)itself is of no importance as an explosive.However,it plays a considerable part in the production of cyclonite in one of the recipes.Hexamine dinitrate is prepared from hexamine by treating it with 50-70% nitric acid,at a temperature not above-15.c.
Foss,Hirst,Jones,Springall,A.T Thomas and T.Urbanski have established that boiling an aqueous solution of hexamine dinitate causes the substance to transform into methylhexamethylene mononitrate.
Observations also made by Foss showed that a certain amount of the nitrate is produced during prolonged storage of hexamine dinitrate owing to partial decomposition followed by the reduction of formaldehyde to a methyl radical.
Ethylenediamine dinitrate
This substance was suggested as a component of explosive materials by Stahler.It was indroduced in Germany during World War 2,where it was used as an ingredient of fusible mixtures containing ammonium nitrate under the name PH-Salz.The drawback of ethylenediamine dinitrate lies in its hygroscopicity.
Le Roux reports that ethylenedinitrate forms an eutectic with ammonium nitrate 50/50,the fusion temperature of which is above 100.c.He suggested using a mixture composed of 50% of ammonium nitrate and 50% ethylenediamine dinitrate instead of amatol 50/50.
Ethylenediamine dinitrate is a chemically stable compound.Its explosive strength is greater than that of TNT or picric acid,but slightly lower than tetryl.The density of ethylenediamine dinitrate pelleted under pressure of 1500kg/cm2 was 1.49g/cm3 according to Kast its expansion in the lead block amounts to 345 cm3.The rate of detonation can reach 6800 m/sec(30 mm dia.cardboard tube)


Detonator
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Posts: 132
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted March 01, 2001 01:51 AM
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Shady we need more info on Hexamine dinitrate as an explosive, if you have any please post it.
Because it's much easier to be made
I didn't get you what is Ethylenediamine dinitrate ?


Microtek
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Posts: 196
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Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 02, 2001 09:26 AM
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What I would like to see is more info on how to go from hexamine dinitrate to RDX. Could it perhaps be done with AN/H2SO4 mix without distillation? Now that would be interesting.


Demolition
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Posts: 159
From: Australia
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 06, 2001 05:45 AM
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quote:
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Secondly with HNO3 less than 70% you only get the dinitrate of Hexamine (explosive salt when dry, more sensitive than ammonium nitrate but oxygen deficient).
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Because dinitrate of Hexamine is oxygen deficient could Ammonium Nitrate be added to level out this deficiency as it is a strong oxyzider.Has anyone ever tried this?
Any ideas on what the VOD would be?
Demolition


ezekiel
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Posts: 110
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 08, 2001 03:34 PM
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Sorry man but you can't just guess Vdet.
As for the hexaminedinitrate...
hexamine will decompose if lest for too long in the presence of strong acid.
Mainly into various nitrates, but i can't remember exactly what.
So the moral is....
keep temp low,
or time short.

[Sonny Jim]

HDN.. Hmm, well I made it once by using NH4NO3 and H2SO4 method. It needs a detoantor, treat it like APAN in that respect. It's power is reasonable. I think of it as stable AP. It's worth a go one time, it doesnt suck royally, but it's not a patch on the other explosives formed by similar nitration methods. I hear it's carciogenic, so be careful with it.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Do you have any idea what your talking about?

HDN has been talked about so many times. It should not be treated like ANAP, as ANAP should be treated just like AP, and HDN is much more insensitive than AP or APAN. I havent been able to detonate it with less than a couple grams of HE. Its also a good deal more powerful than AP.

[rooster]

Also, Sonny Jim, as HDN is a clathrate(right word?), between hexamine and nitric acid, it is most likely not carcinogenic. Anyways, who the fuck cares about carcinogenity? Very many explosives are carcinogenic.

but it's not a patch on the other explosives formed by similar nitration methods.

With your method(sulfuric + nitric), this is right. However, it is the one of the few explosives that can be made with (the main precursor, in this case hex, and) only 50% nitric, probably even less.

[Sonny Jim]

I find when AP is pressed its performance is similar to HDN. Megs site saying that HDN goes a 6000m/s and AP at 5300 seems to indicate similar performance to me.

Oddly enough, when I use APAN (10% AP) I use no less that 3g detonators. Am I being excessive on the detonator side then? I suppose youre right about treating APAN with more care, but I really dont think its anywhere near as sensetive as straight AP.

[knowledgehungry]

10% AP is relatively insensitive, however the main concern with APAN is that it is a mixture, thus settling may occur, so part of your APAN may be 50% AP an 50% AN while other parts may have only 1% AP. That is why you must treat it carefully. HDN can also be made from NH4NO3 and HCl making it very cheap to make.

[Arthis]

A single cristal broken and the whole APAN may start burning, as AN is an oxydiser, you understand the risk.

Don't be confused, the fact that AP and HDN vod are close do not mean they're as powerful. HMTD vod is around 4500 m/s, and it's as powerful as AP, even more if both are unconfined.

[Sonny Jim]

That being the case then, what do VoDs stand for? Surely the speed of the shockwave is what causes the damage?

I see what you mean knowlegehungry, but when I make APAN (or anything else) I try to use it soon after manufacture.

[knowledgehungry]

VoD is the brisancy of an explosive. Explosives have many factors affecting power; VoD, volume of gas released, oxygen balance, and heat of decomposition are all factors in the power of an explosive.

[Sonny Jim]

So is VOD even useful as a rough guide? Surely it is that at least.

[rooster]

As a rough guide to what? It is not like the "power" of an explosive is a term that means one thing. Explosives with aluminium powder in them often frees more Joules/calories per gram, ammonium nitrate has good heaving power, since it releases a lot of gas, and HMX will do better in a lead block expansion test.

Am I right to say that VoD is a guide to how much shattering power an explosive has?

[knowledgehungry]

Yes, ability to shatter=brisancy.

[DBSP]

Sonny jim, you can't just look at the VOD of an explosive you have to have a look at which desity you are packing the explosive and then which VOD you may get. I doubt anyone can reach the 5300 m/s at a density of 1.18 g/cc. AP is a very fluffy explosive and would require a very descent press to accomplish the maximum density. I would allso belive that pressing hard enaugh to achieve the maximum desnity might be risky since it would be easy to get to high pressure on the explosive column.

A more realistic VOD of AP might be between 3500 and 4000 m/s since it has a VOD of about 3570 @ 0,92 g/cc. HMTD on the other hand can more easily be pressed to a descent density, scince it is an amorphous powder it is more easily compressed. @ 0,88 g/cc HMTD has a VOD of 4511 m/s and @ 1,1 g/cc a VOD of 5100 m/s. See why HMTD seemes to be more powerful?

As of today I have not yet seen any figures of at which density HDN has a VOD of about ~6000 m/s. I belive we can say the same thing about HDN as AP, is hasn't got a VOD of about 6000 m/s in everyday use. HDN is allso hard to press and is a very fluffy powder.

Strangely APAN seemes to be quite safe after all, I've shot it with a .22LR and only the AP in front of the bullet exploded, I belive it was a 40g charge I shot, it only made a very dull pop when hit by the bullet and scattered the charge throwing the poweder into the sorroundings(about a 25cm radius). APAN has allso been tested for fuse sensitivity, a fuse was passed through a charge but it didn't detonate. Read the APAN topic, I beliove it might have been Yi or something like that who conducted the test.

In my oppinion this comes from the fact that in a 10% APAN mix the AP crystals ar spaced to far away to be able to start a chain reaction within the charge. Even if a chain reaction would start I doubt that the AN would detonate from the deflagrating AP crystals. The reason to why the AN in APAN detonates is that when subjected to the shock of a proper detonator all or nearly all AP crystals detonate at the same time creating a strong enaugh shock to detonate the AN.

I belive that when AP crystals througout the charge is detonating at the same time the massive ammount of colliding shockwaves create both the confinement and shock needed to detonate the AN that usually requires a substantial shockwave to detonate.

(all VOD and denstities theroff are taken from improvised primay explosives)

[Sonny Jim]

Ah thanks for that DBSP. I generally press AP before use anyway, or it's pathetic I find. I dont like to press HMTD though, because this happenes when I do it often...

When the fuse gets to the pressed HMTD, the top layer deflagerates and chucks the rest of the pressed HMTD away in lumps. This may seem off topic, and for that I apologise, but I dont really see it nescesasary to start a new thread over this.