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megalomania
June 25th, 2003, 04:55 PM
HMTD Factory
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posted March 06, 2001 04:17 AM
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Without using HNO3 and H2SO4? This process is more like an extra method for knowledge since HNO3 and H2SO4 must have flooded in you people's room.
Came across this patent that use NO2 and Fe(NO3)3.H2O--"wet" ferric nitrate, to nitrate aromatic compound, like toluene.

The process takes place at room temperature and under normal pressure. Produces no waste
acid and mild temperature. By product is washed away with water. Funny huh?



nbk2000
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From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 06, 2001 09:24 AM
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Rather than teasing us, why not give us the patent number?
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"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

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HMTD Factory
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posted March 06, 2001 03:54 PM
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Not listed, I think it is a JP patent number,
not US.


nbk2000
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From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 07, 2001 09:59 AM
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Than type the details or scan it in. Hell, even a screen shot would be OK.
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"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.



HMTD Factory
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posted March 07, 2001 02:44 PM
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Details are just like that. Things are all done in room condition, solid liquid mixing, gas blowing.... No liquid is involved except the benzene derivatives.
I think both ferric nitrate hydrate and NO2 involves in the nitration, neither of them is
a catalyst.



ezekiel
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posted March 09, 2001 03:30 PM
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Shall I let you in on the secret?
Here we go:

The NO2 gas dissolves into the hydrated iron oxide,
Now you have a curious little particle that essetially contains HNO3.
The iron oxide will not nitrate itself, partly because is is unreactive, and partly becasue of the local charge configuration in the particle.
Now, the NO2 (kinda part of a HNO3) is being ionised and pushed into an electrostaic filed created by the iron oxide. This makes it even more of a nucleophile than normal.
When a tluen (or whatever) atom comes along the NO2 can't wait to jump off and react with it.
Thus you are still left with your iron oxide; which acts as a catalyst.


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Ezekiel

'Things bad begun make strong themselves by ill'



HMTD Factory
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posted March 10, 2001 01:10 AM
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It's not even iron oxide.
It's Fe(NO3)3 . H2O

Just because you have a general idea of catalyst mechenism doesn't mean you have to let out a lot of "educated guess".

Plus, hydrated iron oxide will react with NO2 in the instant they come in contact. "partially because it is not reactive"? Wachatalkinbout?



ezekiel
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posted March 10, 2001 05:00 AM
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Sorry Imust have misred the question.
I said "partly" beacsue it is a complex electrostatic mechanism that is not easy to explain to anybody without alot of time and a basic knowlege of chemistry.
The reason i assumed it was iron oxide is that a similar reaction occurs between some gases in the presence ofiron oxide.
I'm really ever so sorry for assuming something like that, really I am.

A "BASIC KNOWLEGE OF CATAYLTIC PROCESS" eh?
Why do you have to try and imply that I do not fully understand it?
I accept that I am not an expert, and catalytic chemistry is a subject in itself that is impossibly complex in nature.

Well, having been so rightiously corrected by the man who maketh hexamethylenetriperoxidediamide...
I will conlcude that in fact the reaction is still catalytic (it must be as NO2 and toluene do not react nomally).
It could be basically what I said before but wiht the NO2 anion formed differntly. In the end there must be a NO2 nucleophile ion to bond into the benzene ring.
Sorry guys for misreading that...
I mean I was sjut so out of place!

------------------
Ezekiel

'Things bad begun make strong themselves by ill'



HMTD Factory
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posted March 11, 2001 01:17 AM
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Now our venerable guest speaker who jumped in, didn't read careful enough, acted like an know-it-all, condescended, and then backfired, apologized!
If it is a reaction catalyzed by ferric nitrate hydrate.

Then try explain this : (HA!)

R-H + NO2 ---> R-NO2

without any byproduct or involvement of ferric nitrate hydrate...

Now where'd "thine" H atom go? Shake-a-spear?



Mr Cool
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From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted March 12, 2001 01:09 PM
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Ezekiel: just checking, but you didn't really mean to say a toluene atom, did you? An ATOM of toluene?
No? Oh good, that's OK then.


PHILOU Zrealone
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Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 15, 2001 08:13 AM
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If you knew more about organic chemistry, you would know the chlorination process of aromatics to involve a Cl(+) ion made from Cl2 with a catalyst; this one is AlCl3 (dry) or Fe(Cl3)....They act as Lewis acid by complexing the Cl(-) anion...
FeCl3 + Cl-Cl--> (FeCl4)(-) + Cl(+)
Whitout this Cl2 is inert or attacks but outside the aromatic ring.
C6H6 +Cl(+) ---> (C6H6Cl)(+)---> C6H5Cl +H(+)
Then
H(+) + FeCl4(-) gives HCl (dry gas) and FeCl3.
As a conclusion when all terms in common have been taken away (catalyst):
C6H6 + Cl2--> C6H5Cl + HCl
Why to tell this? Think a bit....
Fe(NO3)3 + O2N-NO2 ---> NO2(+) + O2N-Fe(NO3)3(-)
NO2(+) + C6H6 --> (C6H6NO2)(+)--> C6H5NO2 +H(+)
H(+) +O2N-Fe(NO3)3(-)---> HNO2 + Fe(NO3)3
2HNO2--> H2O + N2O3--> H2O + NO + NO2
2NO + O2 -->2NO2
Thus after simplification:
C6H6 + N2O4 --> C6H5NO2 + 1/2H2O + 1/2NO +1/2NO2
ASAT: As simple as that