megalomania
June 25th, 2003, 05:25 PM
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 21, 2001 11:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was looking at the labels of some car chemicals and noticed how silicone lubricant contains dimethylpolysiloxane. I recognized this from a patent for weather proofing gravel mines.
After lookng through the patent database I noticed that there are plenty of patents that utilize this as a plasticizing binder for explosives.
Now I got the idea that by using the the lubricant spray as is with the explosives mixed in with it before catalying the polymerization of the silicone into a plastic, you could make a plastic explosive without all the complicated chemicals mentioned in most other plastic explosive formulations.
An example of this would be US patent #5,547,526
The thing that's stumping me is what to use as a catalyst. The patents mention mixing 2 different types of polysiloxanes, other adipates, sebecates, and such.
Any suggestions for alternative polymerizers would be appreciated since silicone lube spray is so readily availbale and it only takes 5% of the total weight of the explosive for the silicone to be plasticize it.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 22, 2001 01:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't speak to the question of a catylyst, but I once did some precision molding with two-part silicone rubber compounds, and used what was marketed as a "910 Silicone Oil" (a GE product) as a "thinner". In higher concentrations this produced a compound of *very* liquid consistency that (using an air nozzle) could be made to flow into the most minute detail of the mold positive. When fully cured, material "thinned" in this way was very soft and almost slimy to the touch (but completely dry), sort of like those very soft and bouncy rubber toys that feel creepy when you touch them LOL.
The patent you referenced mentions pre-"plasticizing" the explosive particles with a toluene-thinned polymer and curing by evaporation prior to mixing with the two-part silicone rubber binder. I assume this pre-treatment is either to "seal" the explosive against reaction with the silicone components or to provide a nonporous particle and thus improve the bond. It seems to me if the explosive is pre-treated in this way that there are *many* silicone rubber compounds suitable for use as binders, particularly if thinned as described above. After all, the two-part product specified was an off-the-shelf product marketed for some purpose other than making pressed charges.
It's quite possible the siloxane-based lubricants you mention could serve as good thinners provided the rubber compound is in the same chemical family. However, most silicone lubricants of the aerosol sort contain solvents that evaporate leaving a dry silicone film, and the ratio of essential product to solvent is therefore likely to be quite small.
Another avenue for investigation might be the wide selection of "synthetic" fluids available for automotive and aircraft uses, or the special fluids that have replaced PCBs in power transformers. Many are silicone-based formulations, but without solvents. Some of these might be suitable for use as thinner/additives in binder-type applications such as the pressed charge fabrication described in the patent, or as non-curing plasticizers in the manufacture of moldable plastiques.
A thought: I've long wondered if AN could be rendered non-hygroscopic. Do you suppose treating AN in this way would do the trick (without desensitizing it completely)? Or would a "pre-treatment" of acetone-dissolved NC alone (similar to the patent's "Step 1") be more effective?
outsider
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 22, 2001 01:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Plastic Bonded Explosives (PBX) are very interesting. But it's basically just binding crystalline (solid/powedered) explosives to get a mouldable plastic substance. The most simple way is just the "old wax method": mixing the powdered explosive with wax/vaseline, kneading it to a homogenous mixture and you have your C4/semtex. It doesn't get much easier. But I can see the charme of making PBXs. Tim Lewis describes a few of them using mainly some silicone that polymerizes after the addition of a catalyst (most time some kind of peroxide; reacting with the alkene of the pre-polymer (I believe, it's a long time ago)). Seems all not very hard to do or get. But the method described in the patent is! You need two different dimethylopolysiloxanes an unknown catalyst and a lot of toluene. And glassware for a vacuumdestillation.
And they go through all that trouble just to produce a PBX with "extraordinarily high softness".
The second method they use to get that is more interesting: plasticising a polymer/plastic and mix it with explosive. Instead of using EVA (plastic) and DOA (plasticiser) you could use just some ordinary plastic and "plasticize it" with acetone or NM (although it's not quite the same: it would produce a PBX, only with a volatile component (in case of NM explosive) instead of a real plasticiser)).
If you want to use "this easily available silicone lube spray" just find some "peroxide" used in other 2 component glues or something. But you would have to kmix it (just prior) before adding the solid explosive. If it cures too fast you could dissolve it in a lot of solvent, mix it, evaporate the solvent and let cure.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted March 22, 2001 02:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't butyl peroxide the catalyst normally used?
And I read somewhere that in (I think) silicone plastic explosives, potassium dichromate is used as a cross-linking agent, which I suppose means that it is used to make it thicker by forming bonds between the polymer chains.
outsider
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 22, 2001 02:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Butylperoxide possible, I only recall benzoylperoxide but it's basically all the same. You just have to watch the amount because it's the amount (and temperature and kind of pre-polymer) that makes the "curing time". But like I said just use a little or dissolve all the components in a lot of solvent if it cures to fast (before you get a chance to knead the powdered explosive in).
And in hobby stores they also sell different kind of resins and hardeners. Maybe some of those hardeners contain useful chemicals.
(Ooops, cross-linking is of course something different than polymerisation, I'll have to refresh my memory).
outsider
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 22, 2001 07:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I checked Tim Lewis to see if didn't talk too much bullshit. And to manufacture PBXs he uses "polymerisable" silicone oils of various types mixed with a little benzoylperoxide (0.25 gr added to 200 gr. silicon oil for example). And he first makes the silicon gel-like "putty" and after that the solid explosives gets kneaded in resulting in a plastic bounded explosive. The type of oil seems to be the deciding factor for the mouldabilty of the resulting PBX (e.i. it depends on the oil used what kind of plastique is created: tough or soft).
Now, the easily available silicon NBK2000 found should produce a very soft plastique but I'm not 100% sure. Because I don't know if it's the same as those polymerisable silicon oils.
But otherwise the silicon mentioned by c0deblue could be used it clearly produces a very soft silicon "gel".
[This message has been edited by outsider (edited March 22, 2001).]
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted March 23, 2001 12:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, that's right. It's benzoyl peroxide.
outsider
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 23, 2001 02:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I think it is this benzoyl peroxide that's used in 2 component glues. I believe (a solution of) benzoyl peroxide is sold in small tubes for this purpose but I not sure. I've seen it somewhere, sometime, but can't remember where and when. But I think if you "browse" through a hobby or hardware store you'll find it. The only thing I don't know is where to get those "polymerisable" silicone oils and where they are normally used for.
By the way, maybe/probably acetone peroxide can be substituted for benzoyl peroxide. (Maybe you can just knead AP into the silicon oil? A part will act as a catalyst resulting in a plastic/silicone bonded (primary) explosive. This would be very simple but the problem would be that the silicon will cure very fast and I don't know if the AP is affected by the reaction).
[This message has been edited by outsider (edited March 23, 2001).]
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 23, 2001 07:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The usual hardener is methylethylketoneperoxide/MEKP.
I recently bought a bottle of silicone oil with the 1000 centistrokes blabla mentioned by Tim Lewis. (Used for model racing cars) When i add a little drop MEKP to the oil and heat slightly, it thickens. I also thought of AP as possible "polimerizing agent" but i doubt it'll dissolve in the silicone oil so it will be not the best choice.
------------------
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zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 403
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 23, 2001 07:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ummm, they are both used as hardeners, I have seen benzoyl peroxide used in a hardener for wood filler, its a white paste inside. I have a place that people in the UK can order these two peroxides from, and some others, I can post it if you all want.
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted March 24, 2001 03:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is not a good idea to use AP for plastic explosive because its detonation speed is very low (for that aplication), it's oxigen balance is NEGATIVE. I've tried some formulas but they don't work...But maybe someone could succeed to make it!
outsider
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 24, 2001 06:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
first of all: a plastic explosive is something different than a plastic bonded explosive (PBX) (although in some cases it maybe the same. To be clear: a PBX is an explosive bounded within a plastic or polymer (it may be "plastic"/elastic but not necessarily). A plastic explosive/"plastique" is an explosive made plastic/elastic with anykind of substance (wax, oil, polymer, etc.). Secondly, for a plastic explosive, VoD is totally unimportant. You make plastic explosives if you want an explosive to be "plastic", that is: mouldable and easy to use for different shapes. If you make AP putty you get a plastic primary explosive. If you use AP for manufacturing a PBX you just get a primary explosive bounded in a polymer. You can even make a plastic explosive with flashpowder (by adding some motoroil, see Tim Lewis for detailed information) with a VoD as low as 1300 m/s. I hope I'm not too bold again.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted March 27, 2001 03:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It may be convenient to have a "plastique", but one would still have the desire for a powerful explosive as well? Someone wouldn't go through all the trouble of making plasticizers and stuff and end up with a chunk of plasticene, that would be annoying.
Don't worry, you're not being bold.
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 21, 2001 11:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was looking at the labels of some car chemicals and noticed how silicone lubricant contains dimethylpolysiloxane. I recognized this from a patent for weather proofing gravel mines.
After lookng through the patent database I noticed that there are plenty of patents that utilize this as a plasticizing binder for explosives.
Now I got the idea that by using the the lubricant spray as is with the explosives mixed in with it before catalying the polymerization of the silicone into a plastic, you could make a plastic explosive without all the complicated chemicals mentioned in most other plastic explosive formulations.
An example of this would be US patent #5,547,526
The thing that's stumping me is what to use as a catalyst. The patents mention mixing 2 different types of polysiloxanes, other adipates, sebecates, and such.
Any suggestions for alternative polymerizers would be appreciated since silicone lube spray is so readily availbale and it only takes 5% of the total weight of the explosive for the silicone to be plasticize it.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 22, 2001 01:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't speak to the question of a catylyst, but I once did some precision molding with two-part silicone rubber compounds, and used what was marketed as a "910 Silicone Oil" (a GE product) as a "thinner". In higher concentrations this produced a compound of *very* liquid consistency that (using an air nozzle) could be made to flow into the most minute detail of the mold positive. When fully cured, material "thinned" in this way was very soft and almost slimy to the touch (but completely dry), sort of like those very soft and bouncy rubber toys that feel creepy when you touch them LOL.
The patent you referenced mentions pre-"plasticizing" the explosive particles with a toluene-thinned polymer and curing by evaporation prior to mixing with the two-part silicone rubber binder. I assume this pre-treatment is either to "seal" the explosive against reaction with the silicone components or to provide a nonporous particle and thus improve the bond. It seems to me if the explosive is pre-treated in this way that there are *many* silicone rubber compounds suitable for use as binders, particularly if thinned as described above. After all, the two-part product specified was an off-the-shelf product marketed for some purpose other than making pressed charges.
It's quite possible the siloxane-based lubricants you mention could serve as good thinners provided the rubber compound is in the same chemical family. However, most silicone lubricants of the aerosol sort contain solvents that evaporate leaving a dry silicone film, and the ratio of essential product to solvent is therefore likely to be quite small.
Another avenue for investigation might be the wide selection of "synthetic" fluids available for automotive and aircraft uses, or the special fluids that have replaced PCBs in power transformers. Many are silicone-based formulations, but without solvents. Some of these might be suitable for use as thinner/additives in binder-type applications such as the pressed charge fabrication described in the patent, or as non-curing plasticizers in the manufacture of moldable plastiques.
A thought: I've long wondered if AN could be rendered non-hygroscopic. Do you suppose treating AN in this way would do the trick (without desensitizing it completely)? Or would a "pre-treatment" of acetone-dissolved NC alone (similar to the patent's "Step 1") be more effective?
outsider
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 22, 2001 01:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Plastic Bonded Explosives (PBX) are very interesting. But it's basically just binding crystalline (solid/powedered) explosives to get a mouldable plastic substance. The most simple way is just the "old wax method": mixing the powdered explosive with wax/vaseline, kneading it to a homogenous mixture and you have your C4/semtex. It doesn't get much easier. But I can see the charme of making PBXs. Tim Lewis describes a few of them using mainly some silicone that polymerizes after the addition of a catalyst (most time some kind of peroxide; reacting with the alkene of the pre-polymer (I believe, it's a long time ago)). Seems all not very hard to do or get. But the method described in the patent is! You need two different dimethylopolysiloxanes an unknown catalyst and a lot of toluene. And glassware for a vacuumdestillation.
And they go through all that trouble just to produce a PBX with "extraordinarily high softness".
The second method they use to get that is more interesting: plasticising a polymer/plastic and mix it with explosive. Instead of using EVA (plastic) and DOA (plasticiser) you could use just some ordinary plastic and "plasticize it" with acetone or NM (although it's not quite the same: it would produce a PBX, only with a volatile component (in case of NM explosive) instead of a real plasticiser)).
If you want to use "this easily available silicone lube spray" just find some "peroxide" used in other 2 component glues or something. But you would have to kmix it (just prior) before adding the solid explosive. If it cures too fast you could dissolve it in a lot of solvent, mix it, evaporate the solvent and let cure.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted March 22, 2001 02:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't butyl peroxide the catalyst normally used?
And I read somewhere that in (I think) silicone plastic explosives, potassium dichromate is used as a cross-linking agent, which I suppose means that it is used to make it thicker by forming bonds between the polymer chains.
outsider
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 22, 2001 02:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Butylperoxide possible, I only recall benzoylperoxide but it's basically all the same. You just have to watch the amount because it's the amount (and temperature and kind of pre-polymer) that makes the "curing time". But like I said just use a little or dissolve all the components in a lot of solvent if it cures to fast (before you get a chance to knead the powdered explosive in).
And in hobby stores they also sell different kind of resins and hardeners. Maybe some of those hardeners contain useful chemicals.
(Ooops, cross-linking is of course something different than polymerisation, I'll have to refresh my memory).
outsider
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 22, 2001 07:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I checked Tim Lewis to see if didn't talk too much bullshit. And to manufacture PBXs he uses "polymerisable" silicone oils of various types mixed with a little benzoylperoxide (0.25 gr added to 200 gr. silicon oil for example). And he first makes the silicon gel-like "putty" and after that the solid explosives gets kneaded in resulting in a plastic bounded explosive. The type of oil seems to be the deciding factor for the mouldabilty of the resulting PBX (e.i. it depends on the oil used what kind of plastique is created: tough or soft).
Now, the easily available silicon NBK2000 found should produce a very soft plastique but I'm not 100% sure. Because I don't know if it's the same as those polymerisable silicon oils.
But otherwise the silicon mentioned by c0deblue could be used it clearly produces a very soft silicon "gel".
[This message has been edited by outsider (edited March 22, 2001).]
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted March 23, 2001 12:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, that's right. It's benzoyl peroxide.
outsider
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 23, 2001 02:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I think it is this benzoyl peroxide that's used in 2 component glues. I believe (a solution of) benzoyl peroxide is sold in small tubes for this purpose but I not sure. I've seen it somewhere, sometime, but can't remember where and when. But I think if you "browse" through a hobby or hardware store you'll find it. The only thing I don't know is where to get those "polymerisable" silicone oils and where they are normally used for.
By the way, maybe/probably acetone peroxide can be substituted for benzoyl peroxide. (Maybe you can just knead AP into the silicon oil? A part will act as a catalyst resulting in a plastic/silicone bonded (primary) explosive. This would be very simple but the problem would be that the silicon will cure very fast and I don't know if the AP is affected by the reaction).
[This message has been edited by outsider (edited March 23, 2001).]
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 23, 2001 07:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The usual hardener is methylethylketoneperoxide/MEKP.
I recently bought a bottle of silicone oil with the 1000 centistrokes blabla mentioned by Tim Lewis. (Used for model racing cars) When i add a little drop MEKP to the oil and heat slightly, it thickens. I also thought of AP as possible "polimerizing agent" but i doubt it'll dissolve in the silicone oil so it will be not the best choice.
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 403
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 23, 2001 07:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ummm, they are both used as hardeners, I have seen benzoyl peroxide used in a hardener for wood filler, its a white paste inside. I have a place that people in the UK can order these two peroxides from, and some others, I can post it if you all want.
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted March 24, 2001 03:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is not a good idea to use AP for plastic explosive because its detonation speed is very low (for that aplication), it's oxigen balance is NEGATIVE. I've tried some formulas but they don't work...But maybe someone could succeed to make it!
outsider
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 24, 2001 06:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
first of all: a plastic explosive is something different than a plastic bonded explosive (PBX) (although in some cases it maybe the same. To be clear: a PBX is an explosive bounded within a plastic or polymer (it may be "plastic"/elastic but not necessarily). A plastic explosive/"plastique" is an explosive made plastic/elastic with anykind of substance (wax, oil, polymer, etc.). Secondly, for a plastic explosive, VoD is totally unimportant. You make plastic explosives if you want an explosive to be "plastic", that is: mouldable and easy to use for different shapes. If you make AP putty you get a plastic primary explosive. If you use AP for manufacturing a PBX you just get a primary explosive bounded in a polymer. You can even make a plastic explosive with flashpowder (by adding some motoroil, see Tim Lewis for detailed information) with a VoD as low as 1300 m/s. I hope I'm not too bold again.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted March 27, 2001 03:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It may be convenient to have a "plastique", but one would still have the desire for a powerful explosive as well? Someone wouldn't go through all the trouble of making plasticizers and stuff and end up with a chunk of plasticene, that would be annoying.
Don't worry, you're not being bold.