Best way to extract NA from fuel oil? - Archive File

[megalomania]

Teck
Frequent Poster
Posts: 146
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 22, 2001 05:33 AM
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Crap I wrote NA instead of AN
My question is whats the best way to separate fuel oil (deisel) from amonium nitrate? I can get like a bag of blasting grade anfo and need some advice on how to make AN pure without any traces of fuel oil.

I was thinking soaking it in regular gasoline to desolve the oil, filtering it and washing it again once its filtered.

Im planning on making some ANNM

[This message has been edited by Teck (edited March 22, 2001).]



wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 22, 2001 11:09 AM
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You're sure the ANFO is premixed?
I think it would be a real pain to extract the AN from ANFO, if not impossible.

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c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 22, 2001 12:34 PM
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Fuel oil *will* evaporate (slowly) in open air. I guess you could get rid of most of it simply by spreading the material out to dry. I wouldn't think washing would be necessary.
I don't know if any remaining fuel oil residue would adversely affect ANNM performance, but it shouldn't considering ANNM can be made with less-than-pure NM (i.e. NM mixed with other fuels).

Of course after evaporating most of the fuel oil you'd still have to pulverive the AN prills and heat to drive off moisture, so there probably wouldn't be any fuel oil left after this anyway.

[Al Nobel]

Why not just dissolving the ANFO in water.Fuel oil swimms on top of the sollution and the dissolved AN can easily be recristalizized.

[Trinitrotoluene]

Another method is to perform distillation. I think it will only work if the fuel oil have a lower boiling point. If the boiling point is high then the AN will decompose. So under careful distillation it should work fine.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Distill it? Why collect the fuel, when you can just let it evaporate?

Distilling the fuel out of prills would be very time consuming. Assuming that the fuel could actually be evaporated off, why not just heat it in a shallow dish rather than distlling it?

[yt2095]

you could send it back with a letter of complaint demanding the unmixed stuff :)
(just kidding)
i`de set up and cotton sheet raised off the floor outside (maybe a frame) the cotton will absorb the fuel oil like a wick on a candle and also give you a full 720 degrees of surface area with which to evaporate the unwanted oil.
it`ll stink a bit tho, so beware nosey neigbors!

all the best :)

[Tended Tripod]

Originally posted by yt2095
and also give you a full 720 degrees of surface area

720 degrees? Did you ever take high school geometry? 360 degrees is all the way around foo, not 720. Anyways, the fuel oil should evaporate off quite well. Might take some time though.

[0EZ0]

Settle tripod, he most likely meant 360 degrees at two axis. Think of it as looking from a vantage point with a full 360 degree view. That means you are looking left and right around you. Add another dimention, up and down and you have a 3 dimentional view so to speak. I don't know too much on the specifics of that kind of mathematics, but he probably was thinking something along the lines of 360+360=720.

So with that in mind , the evapouration off the cloth would be from all sides, front back and edges instead of evapouration from one angle if it were sitting in a dish (from the top).

[tri-x]

0ez0, I believe you are correct. It's usually stated in radians rather than in degrees.
4pi radians = 720 degrees, a complete sphere
Like a 4pi radiation detector, sensitive to particles arriving from any direction.
Definitely covered in high school geometry.

[0EZ0]

Yep, you're right tri-x. Radians, degrees, pi, trig, linear equations, quadratics etc. are realitive to the subject and are taught in high school levels of mathematics. Mine's a touch rusty mind you:p. Ugh, just the thought of it makes my stomach turn.

[Marvin]

The unit for solid angles is steridians, when used in relation to partical detectors or solid angles, this is the unit they mean and 'all directions' is 4pi.

Someone would have to be suicidally stupid to try distilling ANFO, while its difficult to set off at room temperature the same is not true at elevated temperatures, even if the 'hey lets distill this high explosive' wasnt obvios enough.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

I dont believe distilling the fuel out of anfo would be risky at all. I've made cast AN explosives where the salt is heated until its molten.

"To determine the sensitivity of initiation by heating, FGAN sensitized mixtures were placed in 8-inch lenghts of 2-inch diameter standard steel pipe which were sealed at both ends with threaded caps, and were heated over burning rags and fuel oil. None of the mixtures exploded under these conditions. In these experements, either pipe caps ruptured, the bomb leaked around the threads or the pipe split open with very little explosive force."

From "Improvised Munitions From Ammonium Nitrate".

[Marvin]

Melting point of pure AN is around 170C,
At Oxford MSDS under boiling it says 210 (decomposes),
Several sources confirm that this is ball park for noticable decomposition.

At atmospheric and assuming no interaction with the AN,
Mid point (50% mass condensed) of deisel oil is something like 280C,
Fuel oil, as in the thread title doesnt typically even start to boil until 330C.

I dont take safety cues from fringe literature, though I do get a lot of ideas, and Id be more impressed if they had tested how initiation requirements changed versus temperature rather than something that boils down to 'it didnt kill us when we tried it'. 'sensitised FGAN' could mean almost anything anyway, but I'm digressing.

I cant see distilling ANFO as being safe, sane, or likley to work at all even under vacuum. I'm amazed you think the idea is at all defensable ALENGOSVIG.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

I don't think its a good idea at all. And who says were talking about ANFO mabe with diesel?

As i said in my original post, it would be time consuming, and easier to just let the fuel evaporate in a shallow dish assuming the fuel actually could be evaporated.

But i don't think it would be "suicidal" at all assuming ofcourse the fuel has a lower BP than the decomposition temperature of NH4NO3.

As for the sensitivity of molten NH4NO3, here's some info:

Drop test with 2kg weight.

Temp Celcius...........25 100 150 175
Impact test, inches...31 27 27 12

Taken from federoff vol 1.

[Marvin]

"And who says were talking about ANFO"

Err, I did, you did, and its also the subject of the entire thread. The initial question confuses Fuel Oil for Diesel, so I gave both values.

The fereroff information is interesting and I wonder if the change over 25C is due to the change in crystal form. I was expecting to see a more gradual change, but aparently not. On the other hand critical confinement probably will change continually, and a lot over the temperature range.
I'm still happy with 'suicidal' to describe an attempted distillation of ANFO.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Nice job quoting part of my sentence. I originally said "And who says were talking about ANFO mabe with diesel? A little different from "who says were talking about ANFO" wouldn't you say?

Since when does ANFO mean AN/diesel? ANFO = Ammonium nitrate/fuel oil. Fuel oil = A liquid petroleum product.

Obviously Attempting to distill a fuel that boils at a higher temperature than AN decomposes at isnt going to work, but ANFO made with gas/toluene/alcohol etc. could be distilled easily.

[Marvin]

Fuel oil is not a generic term for petrolium products, it is a specific fraction of crude oil boiling above about 330C.

The quote crop is thus very minor, though it did add slightly to the effect. ;)

The alternative fuels are irrelevent.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

You may be right about the definition of fuel oil, but a quick search on the net gave these definitions:

1.)A liquid petroleum product having a flash point above 37.8°C.
2.)A liquid or liquefiable petroleum product that is used to generate heat or power.
3.)petroleum product used for fuel.

I didn't find any mention of fuel oil being a specific fraction of crude oil though.