super acids and their uses

[Jager]

HF + SbF5 is one of the strongest super acids. you can buy hydrofloric acid, but how difficult would it be to make SbF5?



I posted this here because I thought that if you could make this superacid on location you could use it to detroy a lock or door hinges, instead of using explosives as listed below.


Jager

[Ezekiel Kane]

I've never heard of such a 'super acid,' but if you wanted to prepare antimony pentafluoride, you would probably want to use the following reaction in aluminum equipment:
SbCl5 + 5HF -> 5HCl + SbF5

The alternative requires F2 and SbF3, so go with the above method. Antimony pentachloride and hydrofluoric acid are easier to come by.

[GibboNet]

You can buy hydroflouric acid ? I hope you don't mean just from chem supply.

I would like to know any sources. I looked for it a while back, and the best I found was sulfuric / hydroflouric mixed as an Aluminium cleaner "alu brite" for Al Bull bars on 4WD's.

If not sources, can the two (sulphuric + hydroflouric) be separated ? They would both be useful to me individually.

A metal hinge / lock / hasp etc, will be able to be taken out with most acids, (thinking strong acids here) as long as you have enough, and give it enough exposure time. I doubt it is the best way to gain access to anywhere, considering the stregth and quantity of acid you'd have to carry. It'd be nice though.

I don't know any thing about 'super acids' unfortunately.

[mongo blongo]

I *think* I have seen hydroflouric acid as a rust cleaner. I could be wrong though.

[Argeleb Elb]

In my chem supply they sell 50% HF, there is probably a way to get higher concentrations, Acros sell SbF5 but it's realy expensive :-( i don't know anything about SbF5 + HF but i think it will be hard to unlock something with acid.

[Anthony]

I've seen HF as an anti-slip treatment for linoleum floors, but only a weak (~10%) solution.

According to NBK, HF is available as "Wink" brand rust remover. However I've only ever seen phorphoric acid based rust removers.

I'd be surprised if conc HF is available as an OTC product, considering how dangerous it is.

[vulture]

SbCl5 + 5HF -> 5HCl + SbF5

Won't work. HF is a much weaker acid than HCl.

Rather try Sb2O5 + HF.

IIRC this mixture is both a bronsted acid and a lewis acid:

SbF5 + HF ---> H+ + SbF6-

Where SbF6- is the lewis acid.

The equilibrium is so far to the right that it will even protonate other strong acids like H2SO4.

[knowledgehungry]

Couldn't you just distill the HF off of the H2 SO4, not a fun procedure to be sure, but im sure with the right protective equipment it would be possible.

[Jager]

I was considering buying the HF from a chem supply company, GibboNet - why is that a bad idea?
will they not sell you any? or is the price prohibative?


http://www.psc.edu/science/Klein2000/getting_jump_on_superacids.html


These are the superacids I have been able to locate on google, (SbF5) + (HSO3F), (BF3) + (HF) and (SbF5) + (HF)



I have been unable to find any information about the speed at which they can eat through metal/wood, or even any acid for that matter.

[vulture]

It might be a strong acid, but that does not mean it will eat through metal faster.

For example, diluted HNO3 will attack iron, but concentrated HNO3 will not, because of passivation.
If the metal forms insoluble fluorides the superacid won't do shit.

[Jager]

I guess I jumped the gun on this one, I just assumed that it would

[GibboNet]

It's just a personla thing - I don't like to order over the internet, though that may change. Besides, everything I've needed so far has come off the shelves locally, I don't see any reason to chnge.

Besides, with government agencies being able to track such thjings on the internet, you never can be too sure. In 'real life' on the ground, I know what I'm doing and who's watching.

Unfortunately, I have not the time nor the resources to distill, but again, hopefully I'll be changing that.

I think in the end, carrying enough acid, and having to reapply it to a lock (or similar) is way to much work, not to menthion dangerous. I'm much more comfortable with explosives than acids anyway. :rolleyes:

[Arthis]

This sounds amazing, as most explosives are made with strong acids. You should try to get more comfortable with them, they're your friends ! (especially red fuming NA) ;)

[J]

If you spill HNO3/H2SO4 on your arm you'll get some nasty burns, but apart from some scarring you'll live. Spill HF on your arm and it will not only do this, but it will seep down into your bones and react with the Calcium, bone marrow, etc. You will then have insoluble fluorides floating around your blood, which can give you a heart attack/clog up arteries. Your bones will not recover even if you do survive, and so you will quite probably have pain there for the rest of your life.

I don't want to scare anyone, but I feel it's neccessary to point out the extra dangers with this acid. If you are working with it, make sure you have some Calcium Gluconate (IIRC) gell to hand in case of spills.

HF is used in the semiconductor industry to clean Silicon wafers. Interestingly enough, BF3 is also used, but for implanting into wafers. You may wish to bare this in mind if trying to blag any from a chem supplier. Although you won't get the BF3 because it's a highly toxic gas...

[yt2095]

try using a mix of acids, HNO3 and HCL(aq), i beleive the mix is 2 parts HCL to 1 part HNO3.
it`ll dissolve pure gold (i use it myself in metal extraction)
that should be alot safer than HFL and more effective as well for your needs.

Also as a bit of fun, i have a 99p (about 70 cents) padlock here hanging on a glass rod over a watchglass, i`ve been adding acid to it hourly for the last 3 days (except at bed time).
well it`s a most disgusting color, but it hasn`t been breached yet!

personaly, i`de bolt cutter the thing, or blow it if i wanted to be really flash about it and didn`t worry about noise.

i`m using straight nitric on this test though. i expect that the combo Aqua Regia, would maybe knock a few days of this trial :(

sorry to dissapoint, i hate doing that :(

all the best anyway :)

[Leadazide]

An acid could be used to "prepare" a lock for a eventual breakin by adding acid to it over a period of time. This would of course requere relative easy acces to the lock and hoping no one notices it. hmmm.... Not very likely if there is something worth having behind the lock:(

[nbk2000]

Use a thallium salt to cause embrittlement. It takes time, but is invisible, and only has to be done once. Come back in a few weeks and whack it with a hammer to cause it to shatter. No freezing needed. :)

[GibboNet]

I'm hoping you have some more information NBK ?

I had a look around, but didn't turn up anything of interest. It sounds too good to be true, so I'm assuming there is a nig problem with aquiring a thallium salt ?

[vulture]

It sounds too good to be true, so I'm assuming there is a nig problem with aquiring a thallium salt ?

No kidding. Thallium is very expensive and extremely poisonous. If you can afford it you'll be sure to raise some suspicion.

[Jager]

Found three different prices: 48$/100g, 48$/1lb, USD50000/kg

http://www.agriseek.com/buy/e/Agrochemicals/Rodenticides/Inorganic/Thallium-Sulfate/?AUT=8e0f2ba5ee204131aa5cdb71099a11af9795e3ab2&FF_UMX=Y
Has a section for peaple who sell Thallium Sulfate.


What about the thallium salt causes embrittlement?

[GibboNet]

It would be very nice, but obviously, very impractical. :(

I think I'd rather spend some money on a few different sized sets of bolt cutters. At least they can be re-used, arouse no suspicion, and will work on nearly all locks, excepting those that are armoured or otherwise inacessable.

Actually, some locks around here have full 7-8mm thick steel boxes around them, so you can only see the key side. That way there is no chance of smashig, cutting, or dissolving the lock. I suppose Lock Picking skills will have to be honed.

[nbk2000]

If you have one of those super-secure locks to deal with, lockpicking is basically impossible, or would require hours on site. :(

Better would be to inject some thallium into the lock mechanism, come back a few days later, and shatter the now brittle pins with a polish key. :)

This doesn't do you any good if there's a series of locks you'd have to penetrate sequentially, like doors, but for a stand alone, it'd be quite adequate.

I'm not exactly sure how the thallium works to embrittle steel, perhaps by replacing some part of the alloy? Sounds like google'ing is in order.

+++++++++++++++++++

It seems the thallium causes hydrogen embrittlement (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=thallium+embrittlement+steel) in steel. Other heavy metals have similar effect, though not as powerfully as thallium.

[cypher13]

I seem to think perchloric acid is stronger than hydrofluoric.

Hydrofluroic acid is used to etch glass. Some calligraphers use it to make frosted lettering on glass surfaces. They place a sheet of soft wax atop the glass, press it into place, cut letters with an X-Acto knife and then brush on the acid. At one time, hydrofluoric acid was sold in wax bottles; now I imagine it is all plastic.

So, if you want some, go to a calligraphers' conference, find out who does this, and inquire where they obtain theirs.

A

[vulture]

Yes, perchloric acid is a stronger acid than HF. HF is actually a pretty weak acid, but in combination with SbF5 it is a much stronger acid than perchloric acid.

Please read threads before posting.
All the info you gave can be found above.

[Hang-Man]

Just to be clear here; when you talk about acid 'strength', you are talking about the amount the acid disassociates in water? or some made up scale of how fast it eats through things?

[bobo]

Strong = low Pk. And, in water Pk is 0 for many acids including HNO3 and H2SO4 meaning they dissociate 100%. You'd need other solvents to see the difference in strength. Check out some basic graduate chemistry book.

[sauvin]

In wintertime northern Alaska, I'm told, aluminum hand tools are used because if you drop them, at -50F, they're much less likely to shatter. I'm inclined to believe it: experience as a die maker has taught me that extremely hard metals tend to be extremely brittle.

Liquid nitrogen. Case-hardened hammer. BAM. Almost guaranteed to work against padlocks, may be a bit more problematic embedded locks but may be worth a try.

[zeocrash]

hmm, i hate to bring up a (relatively) old topic, but this seems the apropriate place to stick this, and i havent managed to find anything specific about this. i was wondering if anyone knew the concentrations of HNO3 and HCL in aqua regia, will 70% HNO3 do or do i need fuming stuff.

[nbk2000]

And you couldn't find it using Google?

Grrrrr...:mad: