vitamin c flashpowder [Archive] - The Explosives and Weapons Forum

Alchemist

May 31st, 2001, 11:19 AM

Hello gang,

Just a quick note. I found ascorbic acid (vitamin C) at a pool store the other day. It is used in spa's as a alkaline neutralizer. I got kicked out before I could get the price. They did not like me writting in a note pad what was on the labels. Ass holes!!!

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May 31st, 2001, 02:20 PM

It can be bought from homebrew shops, but it isn't cheap!

J

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"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John 'Lofty' Wiseman

eNt0n

May 31st, 2001, 03:03 PM

In Germany you can buy pure (99,9%) ascorbic acid at the pharmacist. It will cost 2§/100gr. I don't now, but in several german speaking countries you can by it in the pharmacist. Just check out. Don't now about the other countries. But I think it must be avaible there, because it's a very good method to fight against a cold.

CodeMason

May 31st, 2001, 07:18 PM

I'm going to order 500g through my pharmacist. What's my excuse? "I'm mixing up some health drinks and I like to add a small amount of vitamin C to them." Wish me luck.

the freshmaker

June 1st, 2001, 05:03 AM

or maybe you have catched a big bad coldhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif

CodeMason

September 7th, 2001, 01:09 PM

Bah, I tried it with ~80% pure ascorbic acid and it was less of a flash and more of a slow, crackling burn, a lot slower than KNO3+sucrose. The other 20% or so was made up by sodium ascorbate, this may have been the problem.

Damn, I hate when I waste my money on expensive ingredients that don't actually do anything. >_<

Agent Blak

September 7th, 2001, 07:22 PM

Did you just mix them then let it burn? or did you go through and refine(mill and press)?

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

CodeMason

September 8th, 2001, 08:35 AM

I used the broomstick method, ie I got it in a film canister and beat the fuck out of it with the end of a broom stick, then closed the lid, shook up real good and repeated. I did this for about an hour. I have quite good results when I do this with standard black powder.
When that didn't work I tried melting the two together ala KNO3+sucrose smoke bombs, letting it dry then crushing it into a fine powder. That worked even worse.
I shouldn't have to do the precipitation method either because ascorbic acid is soluable.

marky

September 14th, 2002, 09:05 PM

Hey i thought this might help you guys but thant link for the flash powder dident work so could someone give me the proper proportions
i already did a search and nothing in the picific catorgory came up.
(sorry for the spelling mistakes)

I Also, I made a fool of myself today, I had been milling some KNO3 and Ascorbic acid over night(separately) of wich I tried a mixture 45% AA to 55% KNO3. Tested it and it seemed to burn too slow for any purposes as propellant. So I decided to get rid of the remaining powder. Mixed it up(I don't know how much of each) in a ziplock bag and went outside, put the pile on the ground(around 30 grams in total) and put a match to it. Wooosssh!(I was engulfed in a smoke cloud), almost burned my hand there, seems as I only have to work on the percentage.
*Credit to Xoo1246*

Sparky

September 15th, 2002, 02:11 AM

If you're running out of space on your site, register another site domain and cross link them.
I don't think this stuff really counts as flash powder per se. Flash powders have metals as fuels.
Marky: One of the proportions on NBK's pdf is: 200.6 AA, 327.4 KNO3 and 22 grams corn starch. You're better off downloading NBK's PDF from the FTP if you have an account. I'm pretty sure the corn starch is to bind the grains, but in most pyrotechnic compositions dextrine (pyrolysed corn starch) is used for that.
I remember reading an article about gunpowder alternatives, but I can't find it now. It mentioned vitamin C powder and the impression I got was that it is a better propellant than regular black powder, because it gives a more even pressure when it burns. But it burns slower, so it does not work well for loose fitting projectiles such as fireworks shells. When I was searching for this article I found something similar (golden powder - not to be confused with fulminating/yellow powder):
<a href="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=380B86DB.B1472957%40igc.org&rnum=3" target="_blank">http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=380B86DB.B1472957%40igc.org&rnum=3</a>

xoo1246

September 15th, 2002, 04:25 AM

Remove

[ December 11, 2002, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

marky

September 15th, 2002, 06:11 AM

where do you buy ascorbic acid whats its uses i tryed using vit-C
and didnet work :( (barly burned)and would citric acid pure powder
work as well as ascorbic acid thanks guyz.

Thanks anywayz.

xoo1246

September 15th, 2002, 06:19 AM

Remove

[ December 11, 2002, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

ALENGOSVIG1

September 15th, 2002, 01:12 PM

It doesnt need to be ball milled. A minute or two in a coffee grinder works fine. Using this method i recieve poweder that burns fastr than BP.

Marvin

September 15th, 2002, 01:26 PM

While ballmilling will produce very fine powders and intimate mixtures, its important to note that golden powder is not a mixture of its ingredients. Ascorbic acid and KNO3 are dissolved in water and then heated in an oven. When the water is driven off the ascorbic acid starts to decompose releasing more water, carbon dioxide and leaving an unspecified polymer containing very fine KNO3 crystals. This is the main reason for the use of relativly expensive complex organic acids like ascorbic. Citric/tartaric/malic are all very simple acids and are unlikley to work. Golden powders primary benifits, are the production without any milling, and the lack of water insoluable residue after ignition. Its massivly more expensive to produce than gunpowder and rather hygroscopic. You need an electric oven with good temperature control to produce it, and the mixture rises in the oven, so a large container is preferable. The chemistry suggests the product will be superior to ground mixtures of its ingredients.

Stay safe.

nbk2000

September 15th, 2002, 01:48 PM

Where did you come up with the name Golden Powder for VitC powder? Is this an existing name for such compositions (URL of references please), or something you made up yourself?

Mine was always purplish/red, so "golden" seems rather inappropriate.

xoo1246

September 15th, 2002, 02:55 PM

Remove

[ December 11, 2002, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

carbonated

September 15th, 2002, 03:35 PM

I got ascorbic acid (vitamin C) from an organic health foods store for somewhere around $20 a pound. Its a white powder. I thought I might try it in HMTD because I still can't find citric acid, but I can't find hexamine either, so I might give "golden powder" a try.

CodeMason

September 17th, 2002, 12:31 PM

Well, I'm currently nursing some horrible second degree burns all across my right hand because of this stuff, and I can now testify for its fantastic burn rate, which is indeed comparable to that of good, milled black powder. Marvellously complete deflagration, bright orange WHOOSH. Very nice for powder that does not require milling of any kind (mixed KNO3, ascorbic acid, and a pich of NaHCO3, wetted, and heated on stove.) [side note - I think what is forming is sodium polyascorbates, which would then be much better reducers than simple ascorbic acid] I recommend this to all, but the next time I do it I'm going to use fucking LOW heat and wear some nice fire-retardant gloves. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Luckily the gods had (sparing) mercy on my carelessness this time.

xoo1246

September 17th, 2002, 12:57 PM

Remove

[ December 11, 2002, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

nbk2000

September 19th, 2002, 11:31 AM

I wonder if you could use a microwave instead of a conventional oven? That'd certainly expand the capacity to make it. That'd be nice since I don't have a conventional oven to use. :(

Also, anyone tried using it (VitC) for making something? I'm thinking this would be good stuff for making those exploding "ninja" smokebomb things where you have a central bag of a propellant like BP (or VitC in this case) surrounded by a larger bag of an inert powder like talcum that is dispersed in a cloud.

I've got a coffee grinder, KNO3, VitC (soon), and an idea. :)

I'm going to soak some silica gel in a CS solution from a MACE can. Let dry and grind it into a fine powder with the grinder. Mix with talcum and disperse as a screening/teargas cloud. Firstly, they can't see through it, then, if they go through it or it blows over them, they get maced. :D

CodeMason

September 22nd, 2002, 04:21 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I wonder if you could use a microwave instead of a conventional oven? That'd certainly expand the capacity to make it. That'd be nice since I don't have a conventional oven to use.<hr /></blockquote>Candles? Hot-plate? Small fire? Personally, I wouldn't want to risk putting a low explosive material in an enclosed space such as a microwave for cooking. If something goes wrong out in the open, at least you're only going to have flames and smoke, if something goes wrong in the microwave, it pressurizes, cannot vent, and then ka-boom.

vir sapit qui pauca loquitur

September 22nd, 2002, 08:10 AM

can i suggest a test with a small amount, and _gradual_ increases of powder quantity. I can't think of any reason for spontaneous combustion if there was only a small amount of liquid within the mixture before starting,no metallic objects and if the time left in the 'nuker was kept to a minimum (also a dessicant in microwave would be good as otherwise the water vapour might be re-absorbed)

hey, NBK is there any truth in the myth about the Klan wiring up
microwave ovens to turn on when opened?(sp)...just asking :D

vir sapit qui pauca loquitur

September 22nd, 2002, 11:08 AM

I've just gone away and tried it... it works like a dream !
it takes a lot less time then the oven process, the first time i used the microwave i achived an excellent result, i just had to leave it to stand for a bit to allow the super heated water vapour to escape, (i advise that a dessicant is used as a fair amount of vapour is produced) BUT on the second try i left it in too long (as i was aiming for dry as soon as it was out of the microwave) and it started to "fizz" and pop. i was conducting this from about 12' away so i pulled the plug (extension leed plug :p )

i have only tried 1/2 measures of the recipie (53.5 gm of kno3)
so i DONT pretend to know about higher weights (i have to clean out the microwave before my room mates find out i've been trying to launch the microwave into orbit) so PLEASE FOR G(M)ODS SAKE BE CAREFUL! I dont want a crispy pyro on my conscience (hahaha,me...conscience!) and dont blame me if your microwave becomes the next sputnik

btw, i used a ceramic crucible to hold the solution, and i found that i had to use it on DEFROST mode for about 3mins 30 secs before water was gone (i have a 1.5 kw microwave freed from a 7-11)

nbk2000

September 22nd, 2002, 01:30 PM

The site describing Golden Powder says that a temperature of between 17?F to 180F is needed to melt the ingredients together.

This temperature is well within the reach of a pot of simmering hot water. A simple double boiler arrangement would seem suitable for safe mass production.

And I don't think including a dissecant in a microwave would do any good since the water would be boiled out of it as well. Though if you had an air circulator that passed the microwaves air through an exterior dissicant absorber, that would work well.

Kettch42mk.2

September 22nd, 2002, 05:03 PM

A word of caution on microwaving mixtures involving KNO3. I once tried do the same thing with KNO3/Sucrose (figured it would be faster than melting them on the stove) and it ignited almost instantly on low power. It was only about 5 grams, and it was in a crucible, but it still made an ungodly mess.

CodeMason

September 23rd, 2002, 02:01 AM

Plus microwaves pump shitloads of energy into an already combusting material (especially if it has metal present). Placing an ignited sparkler (hey, I was interested in plasma physics <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) in the microwave left permanent black scars on the interior, and probably did godawful things to the magnetron as well.

inferno

October 1st, 2002, 01:09 PM

Would anyone happen to have a synthesis for ascorbic acid? All I can come up with is that it's main precursor is d-glucose, grape sugar. Ascorbic acid from a chem supplier is US$9/25g, even if a food supplier is 10x cheaper, that's still around US$18/lb, way too high to consider for mass production.

Any ideas?

EDIT - found this:
Ascorbic acid is prepared from a 1,4-lactone selected from gulono-1,4-lactone, galactono-1,4-lactone, idono-1,4-lactone and talono-1,4-lactone by a process comprising protection of the hydroxyl groups of the lactone so as to form an intermediate having a free hydroxyl group at either, but not both, the 2- or 3-position, oxidizing this free hydroxyl group to a keto group and hydrolyzing the oxidized intermediate to remove the hydroxyl-protecting groups.
Doesn't say much, but may help.

[ October 01, 2002, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: inferno ]

nbk2000

October 1st, 2002, 06:49 PM

VitC isn't intended for mass production is the multi-kilo amounts anyways. It's a rather specialized propellant that is superior to black powder for certain purposes. Those being ease of manufacture and use in ball and cap firearms.

But, figure like this...how much would it cost you to make BP of similar quality? Figure the cost of a ball mill, time, explosion hazard, finding proper hardwood charcoal, etc...as compared to mixing two (or three) ingredients in water and warming in the oven.

Yafmot

May 14th, 2008, 09:06 AM

I make mine in a beaker. 60/40 KNO3 & Vit-C, respectively, with just a couple of ml of water. Some people use a pinch of bicarb to keep down any acid formation, but I just use a bit of household Ammonia in place of some of the water.

Heat to boiling while stirring. As soon as the clear liquid starts turning a sort of amber-yellow, remove it from heat and pour into a shallow, disposable Aluminum pan. Put it in the oven on the lowest "bake" setting, opening the door every hour or so to introduce fresh, dry air. When the water is gone, the propellant should have an amber hue which lightens toward yellow when finely divided (hence the "Golden Powder" moniker).

Cleaning up the beaker is a snap. After the stuff dries out, just shave off a little from the sides and let it collect on the bottom. Take it outside (or don't if you like a house full of smoke) and toss a small, burning piece of Visco in it. You'll be rewarded with a big whoosh of smoke and flame (so don't stand over it). Then you just rinse out the black residue and wipe it clean with a damp paper towel.

I use the stuff in my old Colt's Dragoon replica, and it outperforms FFFFg nicely. Plus it's way less messy.

Yeah, 18 bucks a pound is a lot to pay for Vit-C, but keep in mind that it only entails 40% of the product, the rest being $4 a pound KNO3. Also, your time is worth something, and this stuff is way, WAY, WAAAY less labor intensive than BP.

A commercial version is available called "Black Mag-3." It's reprocessed and graphited for better uniformity and handling, but it's the same basic stuff.

Bert

May 14th, 2008, 10:22 AM

How do you deal with graining the propellant- I would assume that ballistic uniformity would depend on uniform grain size from shot to shot.

-=HeX=-

May 14th, 2008, 10:43 AM

Bert: I would imagine that pressing and then pushing through a mesh while damp would possibly do the job. Then the pellets of it could be then fried out. Is that what you mean? I would process it just like blackpowder.

tomu

May 14th, 2008, 03:29 PM

@Yafmot

Vitamine C is ascorbic acid so it doesn't make any sense to use a "pinch of sodium bicarbonate or ammonia to keep down an acid reaction"

I recommend to mix also some red iron oxide (about 0.5% - 1%) into the KNO3/Vit-C mix to catalyse the burning.

Yafmot

May 14th, 2008, 07:54 PM

Bert, it doesn't handle anything like BP. You just dry it thoroughly, crunch it up and screen it. If you sprayed water on it, even w/alcohol, it would just turn to a stiff, doughy, almost rubbery mass that you'd never be able to push through a screen.

-=HeX=-, same thing. Forget the water.

tomu, the way I heard it, the basic stuff is to keep other acids from forming. I'm thinking Nitric, since it can be had from KNO3. They also said it's especially important in fixed cartridges, my guess being that something in the brass catalyzes or otherwise reacts with it to form other compounds.

NOTE: If you boil it until it turns medium-brown or darker, you've overcooked it. What you'll get is a mass such as described above, but with some of the damnedest hygroscopic properties you've ever seen. If you let it set out for a few days, it'll get nice & dry & crumbly. Then, in another day or two, it'll revert back to mush. It will keep cycling back & forth between the two extremes for months. But here's the wierd part: It doesn't seem to correspond with the weather/humidity! A couple days of dry, North wind may leave it mushy, and after a few rainy days it may become crunchy again! But not always. I'm stumped.

DONMAN

July 2nd, 2008, 02:22 AM

Vitamin C is not hard to come by in pure form at all..... Go to any well stocked health food store and they will have it. I got mine from Trader Joe's (franchised store) for about 12 bucks for a pound! I guess hippies can't handle the orange flavor that most normal vitamin c tablets have.....

Has any one tried a different oxidizer for this? Say ammonia nitrate? It would be super hydrophilic but might be worth a try.

On a side note.... Vitamin c powder is really awesome to cook with. Like marinades and sauces ect..... :D