megalomania
June 26th, 2003, 03:16 PM
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 28, 2001 02:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just dreamt of a nice "experiment" involving an improvised shaped charge.
It was built as shown on the pic and filled with ca. 100g AP-putty. The NC for the putty was extracted from a NC based glue for archaeological ceramic. The label said 22,5% NC of which 15% was "lowmolecular" and 7,5% "highmolecular", solvent was 37,5% acetone and 40& ethylacetate. I could have used the glue in this form for the putty, but i wasn't shure if ethylacetate and AP are "compatibel", so i evaporated it and redissolved the NC in pure acetone.
Because i knew that an aluminium cone is a very, very poor choice for shaped charges i put some solder in it.
The charge was placed on an old, rusty 500l steelbowl that was laying upside down. It was ca. 5mm thick steel.
After detonation there was a 3cm deep dent in the metal but the charge didn't cut through.
In my next dream a metalpipe & coppercone should be used i think... we'll see, although i thin AP-putty might be a poor choice for shaped charges, too.
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 196
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 30, 2001 04:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd reccomend making the cone about 45-60 degrees ( yours is 70 ). Also, why do you put that blob of solder in the top point of the cone ? It might interfere with the formation of the jet.
You are right that AP is not that good an explosive for shaped-charges, at least not against very hard and tough armour such as steel. What's important is the velocity of detonation; picric acid is quite good ( though not comparable to RDX or Octol )
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 01:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
use copper for the lining of the shapred charge. it is more dense then Al and it is softer. it would more easily be formed into a jet, and once in the jet, it will have more "punch" copper is the way to go when using something as wimpy as AP.
------------------
...Æ
ST
Frequent Poster
Posts: 100
From: 000
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 05, 2001 02:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A problem with using AP putty in shaped charges would be its tendancy to shrink, often from the outside it will look fine, but inside the explosive may have dried unevenly resulting in a pretty crappy shaped charge.
was it a "dent" or a "crater"?
------------------
ST
posted pictures
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 05, 2001 01:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
try using just pure AP, not ap plastique. when using the plastique you might get an uneven explosion resulting in an un even distrabution of the AP thourgh out the mixture. try like 150g of AP instead. and try a copper lining like i mentioned before.
------------------
...Æ
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 196
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 05, 2001 05:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree.
I did a viability test of AP putty in cast charges myself, and found that something needs to be done to keep it from forming large spaces inside the "body" of the explosive. Maybe you could dry it while applying constant pressure to keep it from forming these spaces; you would continually collapse the cavities as they formed.
Anyway, when I made my test, I used a paper tube 6mm internal diameter with a few grams of AP putty ( 50/50 by weight ). As the putty started drying out, I used an aluminum rod I had cut into a 50 degree cone on my lathe to shape it ( you could use a shapened pencil ). As it continued to dry, I pressed it periodically by putting almost as much of my weight as I was able onto the rod.
When it was completely dry, I cut it in two to see how it had formed, and it turned out that there was just a relatively thin shell and a large cavity in the center. This would not be very good for shaped-charges.
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 216
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 05, 2001 07:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems the more Acetone you use to melt the smokeless,the higher the tendency to have the cavities in it.I've often wondered about sealing the still-wet AP putty in an airtight container.Would it be detonable in moist form?.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2321
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 06, 2001 01:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When moist it is still sensitive to flame put is quite a lot less sensitive to shock. The problem may be that although the surface is dry enough to detonate, the core may not be.
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 196
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 09, 2001 09:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually it will cut steel.
But you are right in saying that the liner will not be liquified; it will simply be a stream of high-speed fragments, but nevertheless it will be sufficient to cut mild steel.
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 11, 2001 10:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
outsider: The ceramic glue is "Archäocoll 2000".
Contains:
15% NC lowmolecular
7,5% NC highmolecular
37,5% acetone
40% ethylacetate
Price is 18 DM / ~9 USD per liter.
I won't tell where i get it, cause it's my only source & in my *fucking* country & i don't want this stuff banned because all the kewlios order it.
Mail me & i tell you.
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
[This message has been edited by wantsomfet (edited March 11, 2001).]
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 403
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 11, 2001 10:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Outsider, come on, I take it that you looked at the pics in his signiture? Didn't you realise the .444 etc are calibres of bullets? They are showing the different penetration of certain calibres, not shaped charges!! (Now if this is wrong, i'm gonna look like an idiot)
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 28, 2001 02:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just dreamt of a nice "experiment" involving an improvised shaped charge.
It was built as shown on the pic and filled with ca. 100g AP-putty. The NC for the putty was extracted from a NC based glue for archaeological ceramic. The label said 22,5% NC of which 15% was "lowmolecular" and 7,5% "highmolecular", solvent was 37,5% acetone and 40& ethylacetate. I could have used the glue in this form for the putty, but i wasn't shure if ethylacetate and AP are "compatibel", so i evaporated it and redissolved the NC in pure acetone.
Because i knew that an aluminium cone is a very, very poor choice for shaped charges i put some solder in it.
The charge was placed on an old, rusty 500l steelbowl that was laying upside down. It was ca. 5mm thick steel.
After detonation there was a 3cm deep dent in the metal but the charge didn't cut through.
In my next dream a metalpipe & coppercone should be used i think... we'll see, although i thin AP-putty might be a poor choice for shaped charges, too.
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 196
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 30, 2001 04:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd reccomend making the cone about 45-60 degrees ( yours is 70 ). Also, why do you put that blob of solder in the top point of the cone ? It might interfere with the formation of the jet.
You are right that AP is not that good an explosive for shaped-charges, at least not against very hard and tough armour such as steel. What's important is the velocity of detonation; picric acid is quite good ( though not comparable to RDX or Octol )
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 01:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
use copper for the lining of the shapred charge. it is more dense then Al and it is softer. it would more easily be formed into a jet, and once in the jet, it will have more "punch" copper is the way to go when using something as wimpy as AP.
------------------
...Æ
ST
Frequent Poster
Posts: 100
From: 000
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 05, 2001 02:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A problem with using AP putty in shaped charges would be its tendancy to shrink, often from the outside it will look fine, but inside the explosive may have dried unevenly resulting in a pretty crappy shaped charge.
was it a "dent" or a "crater"?
------------------
ST
posted pictures
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 05, 2001 01:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
try using just pure AP, not ap plastique. when using the plastique you might get an uneven explosion resulting in an un even distrabution of the AP thourgh out the mixture. try like 150g of AP instead. and try a copper lining like i mentioned before.
------------------
...Æ
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 196
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 05, 2001 05:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree.
I did a viability test of AP putty in cast charges myself, and found that something needs to be done to keep it from forming large spaces inside the "body" of the explosive. Maybe you could dry it while applying constant pressure to keep it from forming these spaces; you would continually collapse the cavities as they formed.
Anyway, when I made my test, I used a paper tube 6mm internal diameter with a few grams of AP putty ( 50/50 by weight ). As the putty started drying out, I used an aluminum rod I had cut into a 50 degree cone on my lathe to shape it ( you could use a shapened pencil ). As it continued to dry, I pressed it periodically by putting almost as much of my weight as I was able onto the rod.
When it was completely dry, I cut it in two to see how it had formed, and it turned out that there was just a relatively thin shell and a large cavity in the center. This would not be very good for shaped-charges.
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 216
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 05, 2001 07:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems the more Acetone you use to melt the smokeless,the higher the tendency to have the cavities in it.I've often wondered about sealing the still-wet AP putty in an airtight container.Would it be detonable in moist form?.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2321
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 06, 2001 01:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When moist it is still sensitive to flame put is quite a lot less sensitive to shock. The problem may be that although the surface is dry enough to detonate, the core may not be.
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 196
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 09, 2001 09:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually it will cut steel.
But you are right in saying that the liner will not be liquified; it will simply be a stream of high-speed fragments, but nevertheless it will be sufficient to cut mild steel.
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 11, 2001 10:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
outsider: The ceramic glue is "Archäocoll 2000".
Contains:
15% NC lowmolecular
7,5% NC highmolecular
37,5% acetone
40% ethylacetate
Price is 18 DM / ~9 USD per liter.
I won't tell where i get it, cause it's my only source & in my *fucking* country & i don't want this stuff banned because all the kewlios order it.
Mail me & i tell you.
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
[This message has been edited by wantsomfet (edited March 11, 2001).]
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 403
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 11, 2001 10:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Outsider, come on, I take it that you looked at the pics in his signiture? Didn't you realise the .444 etc are calibres of bullets? They are showing the different penetration of certain calibres, not shaped charges!! (Now if this is wrong, i'm gonna look like an idiot)