Improvised Ammo ? I must be mad. - Archive File

[megalomania]

Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 09, 2001 09:34 AM
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Remember my idea about the (wildcat ?) homemade shotshell ? Well how about a homemade straight-wall cased bullet ? Surely one can be made from a short section of thin walled aluminium tube blocked off at one end with a very short section of aluminum round stock epoxied into place. Of course, this would be safer in a home-made bolt action weapon or some sort. I don't know if anyone here has tried anything like this, but what do you think about the idea of 'necked' cartridges ? Can they be improvised practically ?
I have plenty of ideas already but I want to hear some of your opinions on this subject first.

(I am presently writing a file on stuff like this so watch this space.)



Igenx
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: No Fucking Way
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 09, 2001 05:20 PM
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They are fairly practical, (easiest way is to alter an existing round) but they have to be machined. Having a round with a weld at the shoulder wouldn't work, and if you glue the shoulder/ neck it in place you run the risk ok having it break off in the chamber. For the sake of simplicity, stick with straight walled rounds. Easier to make, easier to make a chamber that will work with them.
If you have some time to kill and equiptment available then this is the project for you.
[This message has been edited by Igenx (edited March 09, 2001).]



HMTD Factory
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Posts: 220
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 10, 2001 02:06 AM
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I don't quite understand, if you need to make a new "necked" cartridge, why not go with current design?
Aluminum cases only withstand up to 60000psi
compare to brass case 75000psi.

During war time, hunters who have a lathe turn their shell with solid brass.

first, outside dimension is made.

then inside dimension is turned out with a boring machine.

third, neck trimmed to desired thickness and
flash hole drilled.

last, flash hole and case mouth chamfered.

The turned case can last almost forever but can only use smaller charges because of the thicker wall.

I am not an active wildcatter but I think straight wall cases can be necked down, then fireform into shape. Or progressive swaging
can be used, but will require special order dies.



Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 10, 2001 03:43 AM
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I was thinking more along the lines of a solid bar that could be drilled in one end with a large diameter drill and in the other end with a smaller diameter drill. The outside of the bar could then be turned down to a 'neck'. How do you post pictures on here ? It would be better if I could show you a picture...


HMTD Factory
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Posts: 220
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 11, 2001 01:44 AM
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I think I got what you mean, Bitter.
How do you want to seal the base of the cartridge? There are many failed experiment
of two-piece cartridge shell design or failed
screw-on shell designs(they leak and ruined the action)

It might not withstand, say normal working pressure of smokeless powder firearm.



Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 11, 2001 06:25 AM
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HMTD, I was thinking only in terms of a ammuniton for bolt-action guns, otherwise the minor problem of sealing the base of the cartridge effectively would be a serious problem. Especially if the ammo was used on an auto or semi auto weapon (or any other gun with an unlocked bolt).
Maybe epoxy would do, or perhaps threading.



SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 397
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 11, 2001 02:39 PM
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Would turning the outside of the case be neccesary ? Then making the camber would be easier. Just an Idea
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"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug



Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 12, 2001 01:08 PM
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Good point. Necked cartridges are only necked to ease ejection in auto guns aren't they ? A bolt action wouldn't need it. Thanks all of you.


HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 220
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 12, 2001 09:12 PM
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Bitter, before you decide to do the cartridge
, I got something to tell : bolt guns seals the chamber as much as a gas operated semi-auto do (They don't seal, if the case fails then it is ruined). If the case body isn't well sealed, the result is still leaking and destroying the action. Personally I won't epoxy it.


Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 159
From: Australia
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 12, 2001 10:08 PM
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Although this is off the topic has anyone ever thought of putting a small amount of AP in a .22 shell,then putting the bullet head back on and having an extremely high velocity bullet.Of course this would be extremely dangerous as the AP could rip apart the barrel and cause serious damage but if the bullet was loaded into a stronger type of barrel/rifle,eg(.22 Magnum,.222,etc.)which could hold the shell in place,still be fired and withstand the blast? the results would be very intersting.Just a thought.
Demolition
[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited March 12, 2001).]



BoB-
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Posts: 657
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 13, 2001 01:29 AM
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No way, the breech would be destroyed, and the barell would split/fragment.


c0deblue
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Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 13, 2001 02:01 AM
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I'd steer clear of that if I were you. This was in fact a means occasionally employed by some losers in Vietnam to get rid of a hated officer or personal enemy ("fragging" was another popular method). A rifle cartridge would be packed with HE or a stub of Det Cord and planted in the victim's ammo supply. When fired, the round would shear the breach lock or fracture the receiver lugs - usually with fatal results since the bolt would be blown rearward at explosive velocity. If the weapon was being fired from the shoulder it would pretty much tear most of the victim's head off. This didn't happen that often, but no real statistics are available - combat covered a multitude of crimes.


SMAG 12B/E5
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Posts: 61
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 18, 2001 09:09 PM
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cOdeblue, I was in Vietnam and privy to much more intelligence output than the average soldier. I don't recall reading or hearing of such an incident being used on American officers. There was, however, a certain classified operation carried out against the communist which "seeded" communist 7.62 X 39mm ammunition. The technology was similiar to, but more refined, the method you described. The effects were extremely rewarding. Some of that ammunition was recovered by GI's, contrary to regulations. The results could be called, "Unfortunate". I am unsure as to whether the project still carries a classification or not. Details of such projects carried a classification of "TOP SECRET" for 30 years which was downgraded to "SECRET" for the next 10...and so on. In ten years, I'll tell you the codename.


c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 19, 2001 02:36 AM
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I received this information from a trusted source (my Staff Sergeant cousin) during a three-month assignment in Vietnam as a civilian "observer". I was one of the lucky ones - exempted from military service thanks to my aerospace/defense contractor employer. I heard (as well as saw) a lot during my three months there, but I never saw my cousin again.
I don't question that activity of this sort went unreported - the effects would no doubt have been even more demoralizing for the troops than the war itself and the no-win political intrigues that prevented our "side" from ever doing more than holding its own (if that). "Fragging" too went largely unreported (officially), yet its incidence is undisputed by most who saw frontline action.

The operation you describe isn't surprising - I myself have been involved in a few officially sanctioned programs that required me to check "moral" concerns at the door. However, your account of "accidents" involving spiked rounds "recovered against regulations" by our soldiers merely confirms that such incidents did indeed occur. If the military and political brass chose to characterize these as "accidents" (and perhaps some were), so be it. My only purpose was to illustrate how dangerous HE-loaded rounds are.



SATANIC
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
From: australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 21, 2001 01:05 AM
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I heard the same type of thing was done by the vietnamese (north) who put a detonator and small amouts of c-4 into zippo lighters. they were then given to soldiers, or 'left' lying around


BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 657
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 21, 2001 08:03 AM
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thats a short detonator!
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5 out of 4 people have a problem with math.



SMAG 12B/E5
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 21, 2001 10:12 PM
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The VC also "short-fused US grenades and left them to be "found" and used. I blew a French grenade that had been modified and left for the dimwitted to play with. The most disgusting was the use of children strapped with sapper charges and sent to approach servicemen.
Damn! Sorry, this is all way off topic.

[Scientist]

More difficult would be a completely homemade round.
It could be quite dangerous due to the sensivity of the primer, but there's still a different concept
which wasn't commercialy adapted at large.
It's a round without a case. As far as I know it was developed by a German company.

Anyway can anyone comment on the danger of a homemade round?

[CypherNinja]

Caseless ammo was developed by Heckler and Koch for the G11. Supposedly it was going to be adopted by the German Army, but the idea was shelved after the reorganization. The reason they went caseless was not only so the ammo was much lighter, but it also had something to do with the crazy high firing rate that the G11 used in burst mode, I think.


Many people have made homemade rounds before, but you seriously have to know what your doing. Here's a link to an article about a guy in Canada that built his own 4-bore.

http://www.cybertorpedo.com/africanhunter/firearms/4bore_part01_03.htm


I've occasionally read about experimental guns that utilized sky high chamber pressures (like 90-120kpsi!!!!) to pack alot of grunt into a relatively shorter barrel. Did these weapons possibly use steel casings? HMTD Factory quoted figures about (typical?) strengths of Al and Brass casings, but maybe they simply used thicker casing walls and stronger breech/barrels. These were usually large AT type rifles usually, which explains the desire for more bang in a shorter barrel.

Finally, about propellants. AP or any HE is surely overkill, but it would be nifty if we could come up with a propellant that was more powerful than the norm. That way you could increase the power if you wanted, but you could also make much smaller casings! It would be cool to be able to load a 5.56mm NATO round into something similar to a .22LR casing and have the same amount of power....... albeit in a custom gun.

[xyz]

Using AP or HMTD as a propellant is plain suicidal, these are high explosives (all firearms use LOW explosives), a low explosive just produces a lot of pressure that can push the bullet down the barrel. A high explosive produces a shockwave that will shatter the barrel or blow it to pieces.

Anyone wishing to make their own ammo should read "Homemade guns and homemade ammo", it is on the FTP.

[Wild Catmage]

In Vietnam, caseless rounds were used on the main gun on the M113 APCs (which I'm guessing was a .50cal Browning). Sadly, this ammunition frequently caught fire, incinerating the vehicle and its crew. - http://www.vietnampix.com/mach2.htm

Gun cotton was used in the naval guns of WWI and WWII. There's a site listing other propellants used in naval guns - http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/Gun_Data_p2.htm

[Lurking_Shadows]

When I was younger and stupider I tried modifying my own rounds, I only used .22 LR hollow point bullets.

I started by boring out the hole to make it slightly deeper / wider and due to my lack of knowledge on explosives I emptied out other .22 shells then I picked out the mercury fumilate or lead azide (not sure what it was at the time) then I packed it very firmly into the hole that I had made in the lead bullet and capped it with wax.

I smoothed over the wax with a heated nail (yea I know stupid me) to get rid of the excess wax and sealing in the explosive. (very well I might add)

I never had a problem with these rounds when I used to use them the problem arisen when I took off the .22 rounds head and replaced the powder (not sure what class) with powder I had previously taken from a shot gun shell (also don't know what class) it blew up the action on my gun and I ended up picking a few brass filing from my skin.

Also I'm sorry if what I wrote is off topic in any way.

[xyz]

You probably put too much powder into the case, shotgun powder is fast burning but the powder from a .22LR should also be pretty fast burning so I think that the problem was just that there was too much of it (or you didn't reseat the bullet properly and it jammed in the barrel).

There is a forum member (unsure of who) who has succesfully made exploding .22LR rounds by filling hollowpoints with AP and then sealing the top (I think they used wax :eek:, epoxy resin would definitely be safer).

[ossassin]

I'd suggest buying bullets from a large sporting-goods store or a specialized reloading shop. You could order them, too. (For those novices out there, a bullet is NOT the same as a cartridge.) :rolleyes: That would probably be your best option if you're looking for a cheap way to get large quantities of bullets with which to make your own ammunition.

Also, you definately need to use jacketed bullets. If they're not jacketed, they'll sure screw up your barrel over time, unless you clean it VERY well and VERY frequently.

[xyz]

The jacketing depends on the bullet's velocity, if it is below about 1750fps then you don't need jacketing (how many jacketed .22LRs have you seen?, and I am not talking about copper washed ones that look like they're jacketed).

[NickSG]

Stingers are JHP...

Anyway, unjacketed bullets dont do anything special to ruin your barrel. They just seem to burn with more residue than jacketed bullets. I shoot unjacketed .22LR bullets through my wheelgun all the time, and they only need cleaning every 200 rounds or so, if even that often.

[PHAID]

To use lower velocity lead rounds like the .22cal will not harm anything but over time you get buildup of lead deposits in the rifleing which will adventualy cause poor accuraacy and can help cause pitting as well.

IF used in high velocity rounds it builds up quite fast and is a royal pain to get cleaned out properly.

[ossassin]

That's what I meant, PHAID. Copper deposits are easier to deal with and don't do as much damage to the bore as lead deposits. And I don't know about any of you, but I use jacketed .22 rounds; I suggest you do the same.

[NickSG]

If you clean your gun properly and and clean it often there will not be any problems. Ive shot about 15,000 of wal marts bulk pack rounds through my M60 and I havent had a single problem. If you shoot unjacketed bullets without cleaning after you shoot, the lead residue will harden and it will be nearly impossible to completely clean. Otherwise, when its fresh its just as easy to clean than any other bullet.

[ossassin]

Yes, but in the field, who has time to thoroughly clean the weapon right after each use? That's not exactly a low-maintenence situation. When making your own ammo, which seems to be what people want to do on this thread, you're either going to have to spend extra time jacketing the bullets or extra time cleaning the barrel. It's your choice. Personally, I would recommend jacketing the bullets, as it would be better to spend the extra time before the conflict than during it.

[grendel23]

If you are loading your own ammo, try to find or make hard cast bullets. I used to do a lot of target shooting and found that the hard cast bullets caused less fouling than the soft swaged ones. Jacketed bullets are also fine, but are much more costly.

I shot a .357, mostly with .38 special ammo, hotter rounds may give different results.

[arnold]

I wonder what type of modified ammo is more effective again st human: poisoned or exploding?

1)if poisoned: what would be the most optimal poison to use (efficient and available)? Maybe powdered aconite root or phenol?

2) if explosive: primary explosive, kclo3 mixed with something or petn or ammo caps put into the bullets as shown in WRM?