megalomania
June 26th, 2003, 04:10 PM
FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
Registered: MAR 2001
posted March 20, 2001 06:36 PM
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Ive long held some fascination with electrochemistry (since 3rd grade probably), but age restrictions apply to me so i cant get a lot of chemicals. The following is just some thinking i've been doing. I ask of you to read it,to (try) to understand it, and to critique, verify, or contradict my ideas, and to fill me in on what im missing out on.
Beware, and judge not, for what lies below is the ramblings of a 15 yr. old (yes, thats right). I may not have used correct terminology, or said something incorrectly, but I know what I am talking about. I try to explain myself as best as possible, but it is partly up to the reader to try to interpret my words.
-------------------------------------------
Today I was thinking about something.
In a NaCl somewhat concentrated solution @12v
In doing various things with NaCl solution and a 12v power supply, I have noticed that if I didn't use an iron nail for one of my electrodes, cathode i think, my copper wire would erode away, leaving some green compound in the electrolyte. If I just put in it for a few minutes, then took my soldering torch to it (the green stuff on the wire) it made a nice green flame. I'm assuming this was copper chloride, in fact im pretty convinced it is. If so, one could produce reasonable amounts by using, say, a copper pipe/tube for the electrode. The copper pipe would provide the copper, and the Cl- in solution would be the Cl for the compound.
I was thinking today, if ammonium sulfate, which I hear is available as fertilizer, was used as an electrolyte, couldn't you produce (with an iron electrode), iron sulfate and a high concentration of ammonium hydroxide?
Assuming this is true, the Fe2SO4 (i think thats right) could be used to produce sulfuric acid, and ammonium hydroxide could be used in many applications, hydrazine, making AN if you cant get it, and other things.
On the chlorate/perchlorate cell pages, it is said that iron can be 'cathodically protected', which, as I understand, is when there is enough power flowing through an electrode for it's given surface area. This protects the iron from corrosion, but corrosion is actually what I want. Im thinking increasing the surface area (or decreasing current flow) of the electrode would negate this effect, leading to the corrosion (desired) of the electrode. I think about this kind of stuff a lot and i come up with different ideas sometimes.
I read on Megalomania's site ((gotta love that site) under 'Ammonium Nitrate), that ammonium sulfate is not very soluble in water, so if you could substitute in ammonium nitrate, you would not get a sulfate compound but rather a nitrate compound. Using a copper electrode you could get copper nitrate, possibly for TACN or whatnot. Im guessing you might also be able to use iron, to get iron nitrate for use in HMTD Factory's (i think) "Weird Nitration Process". All this is based on my observation of corrosion of the copper cathode by chlorine. When a normal large iron nail is used this doesnt happen (it does on the anode though! Rust! Lots of it! So I use carbon!).
I would try this out, but I dont have any AN or AS.
I think I am (somewhat) safe in saying, that if this process works, high concentrations of ammonium hydroxide could be attained until the amount of electrolyte became quite low, where the process would slow down and would eventually not be worth the time/effort.
I can't try any of this right now, though. I don't have a power source at the moment, because once I left an electrolysing solution unattended, and when I came back the fuse was blown, and the glass part was a nice black color (it's one of those tube shaped fuses about 1" long). I can't continue my 'experiments' without one of those, so until I get one I am stuck.
My idea of ammonium hydroxide being produced comes from a website call From Caveman to Chemist. When I was searching for ways of producing sulfuric acid (I have given up the search, and decided to just wait for Megalomania to put it in his synthesis section ), I stumbled across
this page and it is actually quite interesting. I think it is actually some class. One of the projects described is electrolytic production of NaOH. I believe this is produced because chlorates are produced at higher temperatures (around 80c if i recall). The only thing I am unsure about is the production of NaOCl (undesired). If you read the procedures for making hyrdazine, it describes dissolving chlorine in cold sodium hydroxide solution. Chlorine is obviously one of the chemicals produced by electrolysing NaCl solution, and since it does produce hydroxide, you would think it would eventually begin to change to hypochlorite. While it could be useful, electrolytic production of sodium hypochlorite is not something I am terribly interested in at the moment. It may be something I could do as a future project (when I get more fuses).
Returning to the topic of electrolytic production of ammonium hydroxide, something you would NOT want to do is to use ammonium chloride. I say this because in Improvised Primary Explosives, it gives electrolysing a NH3Cl solution as a method of producing NCl3 (nitrogen trichloride), a sensitive, unstable, explosive oily substance.) I actually want to try this sometime. At higher temperatures (anything not ice cold im guessing) there is a chance of ammonium chlorate forming, which I have read is quite unstable, and should not be used for anything. I am not sure, but I highly doubt that any danger could come from using the other ammonium compounds I have been talking about.
Something I also want to try is to melt NaCl (or any alkali Cl for that matter) and electrolyse the molten compound to get metals that i can throw in a bucket of water on a boring day or something hehe. I intend to do this (someday) by melting a compound such as NaCl (i hear CO3 and OH also work) in an iron 'trough' that I will have someone weld for me from flat iron that is something like 3/16" thick, and electrolyse it (with iron electrodes, and maybe steel cables for wires hehe.) A propane torch ought to be enough, dont you think?
Okay now im done talking for the time being. Please inform me on if my thinking is right, wrong, genius, or incredibly stupid, and tell me how I could improve my comprehension of the subject.
I could use some references on what compounds will/will not ionize or dissociate in water. Someone care to fill me in on this? Is it just nonpolar substances?
...damn thats a lot o' typin...
(did that link come out right?)
the_wingman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 48
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 21, 2001 01:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I once tried to produce Sodium by melting NaCl. But it didn't work.I assume it was because of my poor equipment. I would advice you to use NaOH; it melts much earlier than NaCl.
I think producing all chemicals at home isn't a good choice. It is inneffective and needs a lot of time. I'd rather search in different shops where you can find many chemicals.
You can get "Sulfate of Iron" in garden shops as fertilizer. And you get other useful stuff there. Look at pet, photography and electronic shops ( the ones that sell etching eqipment), too.
PS: iron sulfate will never be Fe2SO4. The only possibilities are FeSO4 or Fe2(SO4)3.
FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
Registered: MAR 2001
posted March 21, 2001 01:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. But would this idea work at all (for iron/copper/whatever compounds, and for NH4OH)?
jin
Frequent Poster
Posts: 111
From: uk
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 22, 2001 01:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i just heard on the news today someone in jail tryed to eat through the bars of his cell with electro chemistry.he used vinegar from brown sauce on the bars of his cell and made some al foil leads from the lights.he only made it half way through the bar before being caught.
FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
Registered: MAR 2001
posted March 22, 2001 11:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cool. That's what I call improvising hehe. I wonder how he connected his Al leads though...
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
Registered: MAR 2001
posted March 20, 2001 06:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ive long held some fascination with electrochemistry (since 3rd grade probably), but age restrictions apply to me so i cant get a lot of chemicals. The following is just some thinking i've been doing. I ask of you to read it,to (try) to understand it, and to critique, verify, or contradict my ideas, and to fill me in on what im missing out on.
Beware, and judge not, for what lies below is the ramblings of a 15 yr. old (yes, thats right). I may not have used correct terminology, or said something incorrectly, but I know what I am talking about. I try to explain myself as best as possible, but it is partly up to the reader to try to interpret my words.
-------------------------------------------
Today I was thinking about something.
In a NaCl somewhat concentrated solution @12v
In doing various things with NaCl solution and a 12v power supply, I have noticed that if I didn't use an iron nail for one of my electrodes, cathode i think, my copper wire would erode away, leaving some green compound in the electrolyte. If I just put in it for a few minutes, then took my soldering torch to it (the green stuff on the wire) it made a nice green flame. I'm assuming this was copper chloride, in fact im pretty convinced it is. If so, one could produce reasonable amounts by using, say, a copper pipe/tube for the electrode. The copper pipe would provide the copper, and the Cl- in solution would be the Cl for the compound.
I was thinking today, if ammonium sulfate, which I hear is available as fertilizer, was used as an electrolyte, couldn't you produce (with an iron electrode), iron sulfate and a high concentration of ammonium hydroxide?
Assuming this is true, the Fe2SO4 (i think thats right) could be used to produce sulfuric acid, and ammonium hydroxide could be used in many applications, hydrazine, making AN if you cant get it, and other things.
On the chlorate/perchlorate cell pages, it is said that iron can be 'cathodically protected', which, as I understand, is when there is enough power flowing through an electrode for it's given surface area. This protects the iron from corrosion, but corrosion is actually what I want. Im thinking increasing the surface area (or decreasing current flow) of the electrode would negate this effect, leading to the corrosion (desired) of the electrode. I think about this kind of stuff a lot and i come up with different ideas sometimes.
I read on Megalomania's site ((gotta love that site) under 'Ammonium Nitrate), that ammonium sulfate is not very soluble in water, so if you could substitute in ammonium nitrate, you would not get a sulfate compound but rather a nitrate compound. Using a copper electrode you could get copper nitrate, possibly for TACN or whatnot. Im guessing you might also be able to use iron, to get iron nitrate for use in HMTD Factory's (i think) "Weird Nitration Process". All this is based on my observation of corrosion of the copper cathode by chlorine. When a normal large iron nail is used this doesnt happen (it does on the anode though! Rust! Lots of it! So I use carbon!).
I would try this out, but I dont have any AN or AS.
I think I am (somewhat) safe in saying, that if this process works, high concentrations of ammonium hydroxide could be attained until the amount of electrolyte became quite low, where the process would slow down and would eventually not be worth the time/effort.
I can't try any of this right now, though. I don't have a power source at the moment, because once I left an electrolysing solution unattended, and when I came back the fuse was blown, and the glass part was a nice black color (it's one of those tube shaped fuses about 1" long). I can't continue my 'experiments' without one of those, so until I get one I am stuck.
My idea of ammonium hydroxide being produced comes from a website call From Caveman to Chemist. When I was searching for ways of producing sulfuric acid (I have given up the search, and decided to just wait for Megalomania to put it in his synthesis section ), I stumbled across
this page and it is actually quite interesting. I think it is actually some class. One of the projects described is electrolytic production of NaOH. I believe this is produced because chlorates are produced at higher temperatures (around 80c if i recall). The only thing I am unsure about is the production of NaOCl (undesired). If you read the procedures for making hyrdazine, it describes dissolving chlorine in cold sodium hydroxide solution. Chlorine is obviously one of the chemicals produced by electrolysing NaCl solution, and since it does produce hydroxide, you would think it would eventually begin to change to hypochlorite. While it could be useful, electrolytic production of sodium hypochlorite is not something I am terribly interested in at the moment. It may be something I could do as a future project (when I get more fuses).
Returning to the topic of electrolytic production of ammonium hydroxide, something you would NOT want to do is to use ammonium chloride. I say this because in Improvised Primary Explosives, it gives electrolysing a NH3Cl solution as a method of producing NCl3 (nitrogen trichloride), a sensitive, unstable, explosive oily substance.) I actually want to try this sometime. At higher temperatures (anything not ice cold im guessing) there is a chance of ammonium chlorate forming, which I have read is quite unstable, and should not be used for anything. I am not sure, but I highly doubt that any danger could come from using the other ammonium compounds I have been talking about.
Something I also want to try is to melt NaCl (or any alkali Cl for that matter) and electrolyse the molten compound to get metals that i can throw in a bucket of water on a boring day or something hehe. I intend to do this (someday) by melting a compound such as NaCl (i hear CO3 and OH also work) in an iron 'trough' that I will have someone weld for me from flat iron that is something like 3/16" thick, and electrolyse it (with iron electrodes, and maybe steel cables for wires hehe.) A propane torch ought to be enough, dont you think?
Okay now im done talking for the time being. Please inform me on if my thinking is right, wrong, genius, or incredibly stupid, and tell me how I could improve my comprehension of the subject.
I could use some references on what compounds will/will not ionize or dissociate in water. Someone care to fill me in on this? Is it just nonpolar substances?
...damn thats a lot o' typin...
(did that link come out right?)
the_wingman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 48
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 21, 2001 01:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I once tried to produce Sodium by melting NaCl. But it didn't work.I assume it was because of my poor equipment. I would advice you to use NaOH; it melts much earlier than NaCl.
I think producing all chemicals at home isn't a good choice. It is inneffective and needs a lot of time. I'd rather search in different shops where you can find many chemicals.
You can get "Sulfate of Iron" in garden shops as fertilizer. And you get other useful stuff there. Look at pet, photography and electronic shops ( the ones that sell etching eqipment), too.
PS: iron sulfate will never be Fe2SO4. The only possibilities are FeSO4 or Fe2(SO4)3.
FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
Registered: MAR 2001
posted March 21, 2001 01:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. But would this idea work at all (for iron/copper/whatever compounds, and for NH4OH)?
jin
Frequent Poster
Posts: 111
From: uk
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 22, 2001 01:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i just heard on the news today someone in jail tryed to eat through the bars of his cell with electro chemistry.he used vinegar from brown sauce on the bars of his cell and made some al foil leads from the lights.he only made it half way through the bar before being caught.
FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
Registered: MAR 2001
posted March 22, 2001 11:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cool. That's what I call improvising hehe. I wonder how he connected his Al leads though...