megalomania
June 26th, 2003, 04:11 PM
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 24, 2001 04:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I recorded a show about spontaneous human combustion (I'm into X-files type shit) and they had a segment about how a scientist discovered a means by which a body can be burned to ashes even more thoroughly than in a funeral crematorium, just by using the bodies own fat.
They experimented with a pig, which has similar body fat as a human, and lit it up wrapped in a cotton blanket. It burned for 7 hours(!) to fine ash.
The secret is to ignite the clothes which, when they burn through the skin, act as a wick, pulling the fat into the flame. The body then turns into a candle, slow burning till even the bones burn to fine ashes.
The clothes have to be of a type that chars to a charcoal, not melt. Cotton, wool, and probably most other natural fibers will work. Synthetics won't work because they just melt into a blob. That eliminates nylon and dacron.
The heat produced by this slow burning is intense enough to melt TVs and such inside a room, but the fire doesn't spread beyond the body, leaving the room intact.
This brings to mind an interesting body disposal technique....
Stun someone with a TASER so there's no blood splatter or broken bones, light them up, and watch them burn.
There'll be no ballistics, toxicology, or other BS to trip you up. What little evidence there was (burn marks) are burnt up with the body.
Most of the people who've burned up this way have been women. That's probably because they have a high body fat content. But I'm sure men could be burnt up too as long as they're not a body builder or super skinny. At least it'd be worth a try.
Anybody have a dead animal they could experiment with this technique on?
Since I recorded the show I'll be making a Real Media video file about this so you can see for yourselves.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
Maddoc
Moderator
Posts: 537
From: Dizneland
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 24, 2001 04:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would be interesting to try on a pig when I return to the island. What with foot and mouth there must be plenty of dead piglets to try that on
I say a similar program when I was in England.
Murder Dectectives, thursday nights, 8pm, channel five (watch it people!). They did one on spontanious combustion with a block of lard (foot high 6 inchs wide cylidrical) and a piece of cloth.
They wrapped the lard with cloth, then lit it, It burned for a good few hours, the cloth acted as a wick.
They also showed pictures of a still burning corpse that someone had murdered. The body was on leaves. She burnt for a long time , nearly totally into ash, the last thing burning was a few fragments and some residual fat on the leaves. The bones were ash.
What might be interesting would be too make it look like they were messing with gas etc in their garage (car work) and caught fire, collapsed after rolling in a blanket in an attempt to put out the flames, and burnt to death.
------------------
Whoa, where my fingers?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted March 24, 2001 04:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I saw the same show on TLC. very interesting indeed. Wasnt a small amount of fuel poured onto the blanket though?
------------------
technology is a wonderful servant, but a bitch of a master.
Explosives Archive
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted March 24, 2001 05:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe someone knows about that body cleaning technique, that will answer the question why the victims have been wemen ...
phyrelord
Frequent Poster
Posts: 135
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 24, 2001 05:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah you have to use a fuel, the one woman had cologne or perfume thrown on her if it's the same program i watched. That is pretty cool though. they wouldn't be able to figure out what happened if you used something inconspicuous like that as a fuel
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 24, 2001 06:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A somewhat gruesome subject, but records introduced at Nuremburg tended to support the defense contention that the amount of fuel consumed in the death camp crematoria did not reconcile with the number of dead cited by allied prosecutors, and therefore charges of mass murder were technically defective. This defense stratagem failed because the trial court refused to even consider it.
Years later the whole "fuel issue" was re-examined in the light of engineering documents uncovered in the context of claims for civil damages against the manufacturers of the crematoria equipment used at Auschwitz and other camps. These papers demonstrated that in designing the ovens and estimating their throughput the designers had carefully taken into account the fuel value of body fat.
The calculation was based on a sliding scale of furnace utilization - the more bodies per hour, the lower the fuel requirement. The ideal was a "break even" point where the process was self-sustaining and no additional fuel was required to maintain incineration - the bodies and heat retention in the furnaces themselves provided all that was needed.
A reference from the Irving v Lipstadt judgment:
"7.65 In addition to the architectural drawings, there are other documents which, according to the Defendants, lend support to their contention that there were gas chambers at the camp which were used for genocidal purposes. I shall not itemise all the documents identified by the Defendants as belonging in this category. They include a patent application for multi-muffle ovens made by Topf. Although the patent application
does not in fact relate to the ovens supplied to Auschwitz in 1942/3, it is said that the principle is the same. The two features of the application on which the Defendants focus are, firstly, the method of employing fat corpses to speed the rate at which corpses can be burned and, secondly, the claim that no fuel is required after the initial two day pre-heating period, no more fuel will be required because of the amount of heat generated by the burning corpses. Van Pelt noted that both these features are reflected in the account given by Tauber of the way in which the corpses were incinerated."
A thorough search would probably turn up some actual engineering numbers assuming anyone has the stomach for something that's obviously way beyond theoretical.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 25, 2001 10:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fuel was added in the pig test and the perfume was splashed on the woman. But the pig test was rigged to insure ignition and the intention of the perfume was to light the entire house, not just the body, on fire.
In actual practice, you'd have to NOT use a fuel in order to avoid any suspicion of arson from ruining an otherwise perfect killing.
In the SHC cases, the ignition sources were candles, cigarettes, and matches.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
Registered: NOV 2000
posted March 25, 2001 11:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also saw a show like that but NBK you said no toxicology. That is not true the show i saw (CSI). The lady had a amount of sleeping pills in her. Her husband went to sleep and when he woke up she was a pile of ashes only makin the ceeling above her a bit burnt and her ancle down was intact that is how they found she had taken a large amount of sleeping pills before her cigaret ignighted her nightgown and she burnt to death.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 25, 2001 08:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seal, you'll notice my post said no toxicology when using a TASER. Obviously if there's anything left they can analyze it. That's why you can't use drugs to incapacitate the target. Strictly soft tissue trauma or electrical.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted March 25, 2001 11:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the smarter way to do it is to get an un-treated bail of cotton, and put the body next to it, on top of it, or whatever, and just wet the bail of cotton - and wala! no body, no bail, no evience.
for those of you who do not know, fresh (and i mean fresh) cotton bails will spontaneously burst into flame when wet. and they will burn for fucking hours - days even.
to give you an example, a friend of my dads, who is a truck driver was driving along one day with 40 bails of cotton on the back of his truck, and it started to rain - now, you always have a several big tarps covering the bails so they don't get wet, but somehow a little bit of water managed to get into one of the bails.
needless to say, an hour later the whole truck was ablaze, and it burnt for 4 days, and when they came back to the truck on the fifth day, 60% of the trailer, and most of the cabin had melted
what was left of the truck was glowing for then following 2 days.
its also dam near impossible to put out as well, because when you wet it with a fire hose, or fire extinguisher the flames go out, but 10mins later it starts smoking again, then just bursts back into flames
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 12:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cotton bails aren't very inconspicuous.
"The body was burnt to ashes in a blazing fire, and the detectives were confused by the presence of the cotton bail till they traced the serial number of the bail to the murderer"
Recent studies by English researchers and noted American fire scientist Dr. John DeHaan, author of "Kirk's Fire Investigation", have determined burn rates for burning bodies by studying fire effects on pig carcasses. Prior to the tests, Dr. DeHaan had estimated the burn rate of a human body from actual photographs of a murdered woman found burning in woods. The animal tests confirmed his estimate.
But seriously, I found some more info about this.
"Recent studies by English researchers and noted American fire scientist Dr. John DeHaan, author of "Kirk's Fire Investigation", have determined burn rates for burning bodies by studying fire effects on pig carcasses. Prior to the tests, Dr. DeHaan had estimated the burn rate of a human body from actual photographs of a murdered woman found burning in woods. The animal tests confirmed his estimate.
They have found that a body burns at a rate of approximately 8 to 24 pounds per hour, and the rate of heat released from the burning body (as in a smoldering fire) is very low with a steady flame height in the 16 to 18 inch range."
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited March 26, 2001).]
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 657
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 10:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, but 7 hours!?! thats an awful long time to gaurd a body, how much smoke did the piggy give off?
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 03:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hmmm, body disposal can be made very simple,
I watch sometime ago in Discovery channel of a serial killler that soak the victim for days in a chalk? like concentrated solution, the body will be dried up in 1 week and can be burnt into very fine ashes.....the guy had only been caught by an accidental trespassing of a teenager into the basement...otherwise, I doubt forensic can analyze/locate ashes spreaded in ocean or river
That SHC is quite neat, is there any upgraded way that make the body burnt mush faster??
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1478
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 05:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how about taking the body to the local steel mill and ditching it in the slag, or how about a bathtub w/ liner full of an acid
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2321
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 05:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The slow roasting is what disintergrates the bones, so rapid burning would probably leave evidence behind.
Trouble with the acid is still whether it would get rid of the bones. Plus what are you going to do with the "solution" afterwards? Emptying down the plug hole would be too obvious as well as the person who recently bought 100-150 1L litre bottles of H2SO4...
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 27, 2001 03:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I finally converted the video into a Real Video file. It's posted in my video section under "Auto-Cremation". Link is below.
There's no sound because I'm having difficulty with my video digitizer.
Acid isn't very effective. I've pictures of people who's bodies were soaked in acid vats and they just shrivel up, but their still recognizable as bodies.
If you can get a body into a steel furnace then that'd be the shit!
But the rest of us will have to get by with burning them in their own fat.
I think what you're referring to by "chalk" is a dehydrating salt of some sort, perhaps calcium chloride or quicklime. When a body is dehydrated like a mummy, it burns like wood.
From the show it was obvious that the burning bodies didn't draw attention because they sort of smouldered and didn't set the rest of the room on fire. Plus indoors is a much more "natural" setting than a body in the middle of a field.
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 24, 2001 04:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I recorded a show about spontaneous human combustion (I'm into X-files type shit) and they had a segment about how a scientist discovered a means by which a body can be burned to ashes even more thoroughly than in a funeral crematorium, just by using the bodies own fat.
They experimented with a pig, which has similar body fat as a human, and lit it up wrapped in a cotton blanket. It burned for 7 hours(!) to fine ash.
The secret is to ignite the clothes which, when they burn through the skin, act as a wick, pulling the fat into the flame. The body then turns into a candle, slow burning till even the bones burn to fine ashes.
The clothes have to be of a type that chars to a charcoal, not melt. Cotton, wool, and probably most other natural fibers will work. Synthetics won't work because they just melt into a blob. That eliminates nylon and dacron.
The heat produced by this slow burning is intense enough to melt TVs and such inside a room, but the fire doesn't spread beyond the body, leaving the room intact.
This brings to mind an interesting body disposal technique....
Stun someone with a TASER so there's no blood splatter or broken bones, light them up, and watch them burn.
There'll be no ballistics, toxicology, or other BS to trip you up. What little evidence there was (burn marks) are burnt up with the body.
Most of the people who've burned up this way have been women. That's probably because they have a high body fat content. But I'm sure men could be burnt up too as long as they're not a body builder or super skinny. At least it'd be worth a try.
Anybody have a dead animal they could experiment with this technique on?
Since I recorded the show I'll be making a Real Media video file about this so you can see for yourselves.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
Maddoc
Moderator
Posts: 537
From: Dizneland
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 24, 2001 04:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would be interesting to try on a pig when I return to the island. What with foot and mouth there must be plenty of dead piglets to try that on
I say a similar program when I was in England.
Murder Dectectives, thursday nights, 8pm, channel five (watch it people!). They did one on spontanious combustion with a block of lard (foot high 6 inchs wide cylidrical) and a piece of cloth.
They wrapped the lard with cloth, then lit it, It burned for a good few hours, the cloth acted as a wick.
They also showed pictures of a still burning corpse that someone had murdered. The body was on leaves. She burnt for a long time , nearly totally into ash, the last thing burning was a few fragments and some residual fat on the leaves. The bones were ash.
What might be interesting would be too make it look like they were messing with gas etc in their garage (car work) and caught fire, collapsed after rolling in a blanket in an attempt to put out the flames, and burnt to death.
------------------
Whoa, where my fingers?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted March 24, 2001 04:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I saw the same show on TLC. very interesting indeed. Wasnt a small amount of fuel poured onto the blanket though?
------------------
technology is a wonderful servant, but a bitch of a master.
Explosives Archive
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted March 24, 2001 05:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe someone knows about that body cleaning technique, that will answer the question why the victims have been wemen ...
phyrelord
Frequent Poster
Posts: 135
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 24, 2001 05:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah you have to use a fuel, the one woman had cologne or perfume thrown on her if it's the same program i watched. That is pretty cool though. they wouldn't be able to figure out what happened if you used something inconspicuous like that as a fuel
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 24, 2001 06:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A somewhat gruesome subject, but records introduced at Nuremburg tended to support the defense contention that the amount of fuel consumed in the death camp crematoria did not reconcile with the number of dead cited by allied prosecutors, and therefore charges of mass murder were technically defective. This defense stratagem failed because the trial court refused to even consider it.
Years later the whole "fuel issue" was re-examined in the light of engineering documents uncovered in the context of claims for civil damages against the manufacturers of the crematoria equipment used at Auschwitz and other camps. These papers demonstrated that in designing the ovens and estimating their throughput the designers had carefully taken into account the fuel value of body fat.
The calculation was based on a sliding scale of furnace utilization - the more bodies per hour, the lower the fuel requirement. The ideal was a "break even" point where the process was self-sustaining and no additional fuel was required to maintain incineration - the bodies and heat retention in the furnaces themselves provided all that was needed.
A reference from the Irving v Lipstadt judgment:
"7.65 In addition to the architectural drawings, there are other documents which, according to the Defendants, lend support to their contention that there were gas chambers at the camp which were used for genocidal purposes. I shall not itemise all the documents identified by the Defendants as belonging in this category. They include a patent application for multi-muffle ovens made by Topf. Although the patent application
does not in fact relate to the ovens supplied to Auschwitz in 1942/3, it is said that the principle is the same. The two features of the application on which the Defendants focus are, firstly, the method of employing fat corpses to speed the rate at which corpses can be burned and, secondly, the claim that no fuel is required after the initial two day pre-heating period, no more fuel will be required because of the amount of heat generated by the burning corpses. Van Pelt noted that both these features are reflected in the account given by Tauber of the way in which the corpses were incinerated."
A thorough search would probably turn up some actual engineering numbers assuming anyone has the stomach for something that's obviously way beyond theoretical.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 25, 2001 10:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fuel was added in the pig test and the perfume was splashed on the woman. But the pig test was rigged to insure ignition and the intention of the perfume was to light the entire house, not just the body, on fire.
In actual practice, you'd have to NOT use a fuel in order to avoid any suspicion of arson from ruining an otherwise perfect killing.
In the SHC cases, the ignition sources were candles, cigarettes, and matches.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
Registered: NOV 2000
posted March 25, 2001 11:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also saw a show like that but NBK you said no toxicology. That is not true the show i saw (CSI). The lady had a amount of sleeping pills in her. Her husband went to sleep and when he woke up she was a pile of ashes only makin the ceeling above her a bit burnt and her ancle down was intact that is how they found she had taken a large amount of sleeping pills before her cigaret ignighted her nightgown and she burnt to death.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 25, 2001 08:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seal, you'll notice my post said no toxicology when using a TASER. Obviously if there's anything left they can analyze it. That's why you can't use drugs to incapacitate the target. Strictly soft tissue trauma or electrical.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted March 25, 2001 11:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the smarter way to do it is to get an un-treated bail of cotton, and put the body next to it, on top of it, or whatever, and just wet the bail of cotton - and wala! no body, no bail, no evience.
for those of you who do not know, fresh (and i mean fresh) cotton bails will spontaneously burst into flame when wet. and they will burn for fucking hours - days even.
to give you an example, a friend of my dads, who is a truck driver was driving along one day with 40 bails of cotton on the back of his truck, and it started to rain - now, you always have a several big tarps covering the bails so they don't get wet, but somehow a little bit of water managed to get into one of the bails.
needless to say, an hour later the whole truck was ablaze, and it burnt for 4 days, and when they came back to the truck on the fifth day, 60% of the trailer, and most of the cabin had melted
what was left of the truck was glowing for then following 2 days.
its also dam near impossible to put out as well, because when you wet it with a fire hose, or fire extinguisher the flames go out, but 10mins later it starts smoking again, then just bursts back into flames
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 12:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cotton bails aren't very inconspicuous.
"The body was burnt to ashes in a blazing fire, and the detectives were confused by the presence of the cotton bail till they traced the serial number of the bail to the murderer"
Recent studies by English researchers and noted American fire scientist Dr. John DeHaan, author of "Kirk's Fire Investigation", have determined burn rates for burning bodies by studying fire effects on pig carcasses. Prior to the tests, Dr. DeHaan had estimated the burn rate of a human body from actual photographs of a murdered woman found burning in woods. The animal tests confirmed his estimate.
But seriously, I found some more info about this.
"Recent studies by English researchers and noted American fire scientist Dr. John DeHaan, author of "Kirk's Fire Investigation", have determined burn rates for burning bodies by studying fire effects on pig carcasses. Prior to the tests, Dr. DeHaan had estimated the burn rate of a human body from actual photographs of a murdered woman found burning in woods. The animal tests confirmed his estimate.
They have found that a body burns at a rate of approximately 8 to 24 pounds per hour, and the rate of heat released from the burning body (as in a smoldering fire) is very low with a steady flame height in the 16 to 18 inch range."
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited March 26, 2001).]
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 657
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 10:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, but 7 hours!?! thats an awful long time to gaurd a body, how much smoke did the piggy give off?
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 03:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hmmm, body disposal can be made very simple,
I watch sometime ago in Discovery channel of a serial killler that soak the victim for days in a chalk? like concentrated solution, the body will be dried up in 1 week and can be burnt into very fine ashes.....the guy had only been caught by an accidental trespassing of a teenager into the basement...otherwise, I doubt forensic can analyze/locate ashes spreaded in ocean or river
That SHC is quite neat, is there any upgraded way that make the body burnt mush faster??
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1478
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 05:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how about taking the body to the local steel mill and ditching it in the slag, or how about a bathtub w/ liner full of an acid
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2321
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 05:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The slow roasting is what disintergrates the bones, so rapid burning would probably leave evidence behind.
Trouble with the acid is still whether it would get rid of the bones. Plus what are you going to do with the "solution" afterwards? Emptying down the plug hole would be too obvious as well as the person who recently bought 100-150 1L litre bottles of H2SO4...
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 27, 2001 03:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I finally converted the video into a Real Video file. It's posted in my video section under "Auto-Cremation". Link is below.
There's no sound because I'm having difficulty with my video digitizer.
Acid isn't very effective. I've pictures of people who's bodies were soaked in acid vats and they just shrivel up, but their still recognizable as bodies.
If you can get a body into a steel furnace then that'd be the shit!
But the rest of us will have to get by with burning them in their own fat.
I think what you're referring to by "chalk" is a dehydrating salt of some sort, perhaps calcium chloride or quicklime. When a body is dehydrated like a mummy, it burns like wood.
From the show it was obvious that the burning bodies didn't draw attention because they sort of smouldered and didn't set the rest of the room on fire. Plus indoors is a much more "natural" setting than a body in the middle of a field.