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knowledgehungry
June 30th, 2003, 04:09 PM
Well sitting around being bored waiting for H2O to boil off copper sulfate, i got the brilliant idea to see what happens when you put a droplet of NG on a heated metal surface, i thought nothing would happen or there would be a small crack like that of AP. Well it detonated, blew a 1 inch hole in the thin piec of sheet metal it was on and left my ears ringing. It was one drop! A very small drop at that. I thought that NG wasnt detonated by heat:confused:. I was just letting others as dumb as myself know that just because a substance isn't flame sensitive it doesn't mean that it will not detonate due to heat. I wonder Flash detonated NG? Or thermite detonated NG it might have its uses... Thermite fuse instead of using a cap to set it off... Any ideas other than im an idiot that deserves to lose my hand?

kingspaz
June 30th, 2003, 07:12 PM
well atleast you have no permanent injuries providing your ears stop ringing.
you must ask yourself why you didn't know NG detonated under heat. you should read up on what you're making before you go pissing around with it. COPAE has extensive information on this explosive. you must also realise that a small drop of NG is going to destroy everything its in contact with when it detonates. how much is in a small drop? 0.2ml? 0.2ml at 1.6g/ml (not sure of exact density) = 0.2*1.6 = 0.32g. now it seems like alot more...

knowledgehungry
June 30th, 2003, 07:57 PM
Yes, me being bored is always a bad thing, i do things just to see what happens and often its not something good. The drop was much smaller than a BB, I was blanking on the fact that all explosives detonate with enough heat. And i was thinking more of AP in terms of how powerful such a small amount would be, i know that NG was more powerful than AP(duh) but i didnt realize how much more powerful. What do you guys think about Thermite detonated NG? worthy of testing?

ALENGOSVIG1
July 1st, 2003, 12:24 AM
NG doesnt usually detonate by heat. Unless its brought to hundreds of degrees in less then a second. :D

NG has a very wide range of det velocities. You dont achive the high veloceties unless the diameter of the tube is of moderate size (couple inches) and you use a good blasting cap. So i'd say fuck thermite and just use a gram of primary. Simple.

nbk2000
July 1st, 2003, 01:07 AM
DUDE! :eek:

Read COPAE! Explained quite clearly is how dropping NG on hot metal plates causes powerful explosions. :)

vulture
July 1st, 2003, 06:51 AM
Why can you set off explosives with a blasting cap or a hammer whack if they're sensitive enough? Because both these ways of initiation deliver energy over a very short period of time, delivering high power, as power equals energy/time.

Looking at this you can see you can detonate ANY explosive if it is heated rapidly enough.
It even works with AN, remember those ships that exploded?

knowledgehungry
July 1st, 2003, 01:21 PM
Yes as i said I am a dumbass, my ears still act funny sometimes like one will go kinda dead for like a minute:o. I know that the way explosives detonate is due to rapid energy moving through them, I just didn't think that NG would do that, and i was curious to see what happened. My apologies for bringing down the reputation of this forum with my stupidity;).

yt2095
July 1st, 2003, 02:17 PM
well i`m glad your still WITH US (had to shout up a bit just in case)

never having succesfully made my own NG, only played with it as a teenager from sweaty old dynamite in a barn.
i was curious about 2 things really, 1) would NG be classed as a primary (due to sensitivity like TATP)?

2) why wouldn`t a simple fuse set it off? surely if just the 1`st few molecules were to burn or even detonate, the shockwave would trigger the rest (DDT)?

and Knowledgehungry, i`m similar if i get bored, i start making NG, then chicken out sometime later when i`m not so bored, and i don`t mind admiting it! scares the hell outa me!
i don`t even know how you can store the stuff TO DROP on a hot metal plate :)

Stay safe, you`ll live longer :)

knowledgehungry
July 1st, 2003, 02:58 PM
Fuse doesn't heat up the NG quickly enough, thats why i was thinking of thermite, but the more experienced members eem to think of it as a waste of effort with little success.

frogfot
July 1st, 2003, 03:06 PM
A hole in plate?! how thick plate was it?
I once ignited a pea sised, pyramide shaped AP putty piece on 0,75mm iron plate and it only got a small dent (less than 0,5mm)

EDIT: AP putty detonates always for me in any quantities, when I ignite it by flame/hot wire.. (reply to post below :rolleyes: )

Axt
July 1st, 2003, 03:47 PM
frogfoot, igniting and dropping it on a hotplate are not the same thing, so not comparable. The thing with NG is that it is a liquid which when dropped on a plate flattens out, the high surface area is heated very fast and detonation occurs. Simply igniting NG like you did with the AP results in a pretty flame, thats the subject of this thread.

Note that AP putty will also have a critical size needed for def -> det transition so small sizes arent a measure of true power.

Arthis
July 1st, 2003, 05:18 PM
In fact this is the case for most explosives, but AP putty is a bit different. It's AP cristal in an energetic binder. The putty (nitrocellulose laque) does not detonate alone, it's the AP cristals detonating that makes it detonate.
As AP cristal are confined, they detonate, then it makes the whole stuff detonate.
A single AP cristal detonating is enough I think.

But this is a particular case as AP is not an homogen compound.

Axt
July 1st, 2003, 05:58 PM
The AP/NC burns, its not immediately self confined. There WILL be a delayed def-det transition which is a factor when talking about miniscule quantities, even if its too fast to see it.

Cricket
July 2nd, 2003, 01:18 AM
When I got to play with APNC, I noticed that when I poked a small nugget with a red hot wire, I would feel many pieces of something hit my wire holding hand and whatever else was close enough to it. I thought about it and concluded that is must have been small pieces of NC shrapnel hitting me. The shockwave from a small bit isn't enough to detonate the NC, but enough to make it sting you it seems :eek:. But I am sure a larger amount of APNC would create a powerful enough shockwave to crack the NC molecules apart. Wait a minute, how'd we get from NG to APNC? But anyways, that is pretty damn impressive, to a NG virgin, to hear a drop doing that!

knowledgehungry
July 9th, 2003, 04:46 PM
Perhaps itwasnt pieces of NC that hit your hand, wen something detonates that close to you it can feel like your hand just got smacked with something, even though it was merely the shockwave.

Cricket
July 9th, 2003, 07:42 PM
I am not sure. It felt like 10-15 places were pricked by a needle, instead of a constant even pressure. Strange.

kingspaz
July 9th, 2003, 07:56 PM
circket, that could have been the shockwave overloading your sensory neurones. did you experience any numbness afterwards?

yt2095
July 10th, 2003, 02:25 PM
a simple improvised way to find out for sure.

melt some parafin wax in a tin, let it cool to room temp, and repeat the experiment again making sure the wax is same distance as your hand was (use a longer wire for you this time, as you already know what it feels like)
then check your wax surface afterwards :)

probity
July 12th, 2003, 03:47 AM
Spaz, I've had that happen to me before... very strange.

nbk2000
July 12th, 2003, 08:56 PM
Since he was holding a metal wire in direcet contact with the explosive at the moment of detonation, and metal conducting soundwaves must faster than air, it's very likely he got stung that way.

It's like when you hold a metal bar and whack it onto another metal object. The metal bar vibrates like a chime in your hands, numbing it. :)

zippoxiv
July 12th, 2003, 10:04 PM
When I first started with APNC it was in the winter with about two feet of snow on the ground. When I would detonate a small charge (1in x .5in dia cylinder) and I would find small black/greenish specks leftover in the pure white snow. After skimming off the top layer of snow, and letting it melt until just the specks were left, they appeared and behaved much like particles of NC would. I always suspected that the APNC was not fully detonating, but instead throwing around a bit of unburned and undetonated NC and this agrees with both the specks of NC in the snow, and his pricked finger.

BANG_BANG
July 19th, 2003, 07:37 AM
Are you sure it was the heat the detonated the Nitro, maybe it was the height that you dropped it from.
Or even the dropped it which stressed the nitro enough to cause it to detonate from the heat

blindreeper
July 19th, 2003, 08:17 AM
I am no nitro expert but I don't think nitro is that sensative that it would go off from a 1 foot fall. I assume 1 foot cause who honestly pipets things from 1m in the air ?:rolleyes:

knowledgehungry
July 19th, 2003, 11:23 AM
No it was definitly the heat, i dropped the drop and after about one second it went bang(enough time for me to realize i made a mistake and to turn my head away).

ALENGOSVIG1
July 19th, 2003, 01:18 PM
A drop of nitro detonating from a couple foot fall? NO!

Im getting so SICK AND TIRED and these fucking morons who keep saying that nitro is incredibly sensistive. In every nitro thread, theres at least one or two inexperienced fucktards who exaggerate the sensitivty of NG because of some shit they saw on mcguyver and becuase they want to sound knowledgeable by warning us against NG.

Well fucking stop it because your making a fool out of yourself.

BANG_BANG
July 19th, 2003, 05:26 PM
Real so all these warnings on web sites etc have just been fucking me around for the past month,
I've been making acetone peroxide for ages and had no problems with it, Easy to make AP.
People have been saying thats more sensitive then NG. I never plan to keep my AP for long and don't bother to Deacitise(mixing it with sodiium bicarb) how would this effect the sensitivity, would it be like NG when it's acidic or basic it's more unstable or would it decress the stablitiy?

ALENGOSVIG1
July 19th, 2003, 05:37 PM
Real so all these warnings on web sites etc have just been fucking me around for the past month,

If they've got you convinced that a drop of nitro will detonate from a couple foot fall, then yes, they have been fucking with you.

nbk2000
July 20th, 2003, 11:16 AM
Alen, it's not the poor yuks' fault that he's ignorant of NG's properties. After all, how many of us have watched movies and TV shows where the hero/villian was super-nervous about handling NG while trying to blow up something? It's practically ingrained into everyones unconcious mind that bumping NG equals certain death.

It probably also has some orgin in preventing people from trying to make a very powerful, and very simple, high explosive from commonly available materials. Pretty much any other explosive of comparable power is much more complicated to make.

While I wouldn't want to play hackey-sack with a bottle of it, it's not something to be feared, just respected, like all explosives should be. :)

Likely the reason for the stereotype of super-sensitive NG is because of people "back in the days" using NG that was extracted out of dynamite (bad) or poorly synthesized and acid contaminated (worse). Oh, and let's not leave out the thawing transitional crystalline phase change and the stresses that induces that can result in explosions.

If your nitro is acid free, water free, and not in the process of thawing (or freezing), then it's not too dangerous to handle as long as you don't get stupid with it. Explosives are a very effective means of natural selection when it comes to weeding out stupid genes from the gene pool. :D

I've never had a problem with it myself. :) Not surprising, considering how I've never made it. ;)

I'd be quite content to let the rest of the population continue to suffer under the delusion that NG=Certain Death, leaving it one of the least likely explosives to have its precursors controlled and monitored (not that that'd be really possible), and one more method to my advantage. :)

BTW, I can get USP Glycerine for $4/pint, and nitrate instant cold-paks for cheap, thanks to my employee discount. Oh, happy days. :)

frogfot
July 20th, 2003, 12:13 PM
I was actually dissapointed by NGs unsencitivity (first thoat that I made something other than NG) :rolleyes: So, NBK, youre right about unconcious mind part..

Arthis
July 20th, 2003, 04:24 PM
Does NG evaporates (even very slowly), because what I thought being NG (<1 gm) disappeared slowly in 2 weeks (it was hot and windy here)...
I'm puzzled now, that was the NG made with 58% NA, I begin to wonder if it was really NG, thought I cannot imagine what it could be else (at least not glycerine since it was at the bottom of the beaker).

nbk2000
July 20th, 2003, 11:00 PM
Of course it does. It is a liquid after all and all liquids will evaporate over time.

You might want to try a comparative test. Set two equal volumes of NG and plain Glycerine out on plates somewhere to evaporate and see which goes first.

Imperial
July 26th, 2003, 07:35 AM
SWIM has made lots of NG over the past, but SWIM never had problems with it.

NG will not detonate from a small fall. Heating it or placing a large shockwave on it (e.g. throwing it at a wall while it is in a glass bottle which will smash) may sensitise/detonate it, but it isn't the evil substance it is made out to be.

As long as it isn't heated too much, or given too much of a shock (like dropping in a glass bottle from a metre and a half) then it won't detonate.

I wouldn't try freezing though. That makes the compound unstable, and may cause issues. Especially thawing. Just store in a bottle somewhere in a fridge which isn't set to a temperature which will cause freezing.

yt2095
July 26th, 2003, 07:57 AM
another indication that it evaporates is the smell and smoke like fumes it gives off (I`ve never personaly seen the fumes my self however) the lemony quite pleasant smell on the other hand is a clear indication.

I have a bottle of pure Glycerine here (some spilled down the edge many years ago) it`s still hasn`t evaporated though. So I assume the nitration (other than the obvious) alters it somewhat to make it vaporable.
As for its sensitivity, I cannot comment as I`ve only made quantities smaller than 2ml, burned a single drop and then disposed of the rest, I only made it for the experience, and had no practical use for it.
as for it`s sensitivity being equal or greater than that of AP, I can only assume that NG is reasonably insenstive, as my AP (tho very powerfull) is quite easily handled and manipulated without event.
I must however confess to being one of these "fucktards" myself a few years ago with regards to these materials (I used to make AN half a gram at a time!). being here and doing experiments myself has opened my eyes from the sumliminal sleep imposed upon us all weak minded enough to blindly accept the so called "truth" drip fed to us by society.

hpy2bhre
August 3rd, 2003, 11:49 AM
I hope this is realative to this thread. One of my favorite things to do with ap is to place a gram ( or less ) on a piece of masking tape and fold it over so i can seal the edges. Then I place it flat on a butane heater and turn on the heater to rapidly heat the tape.( it takes only seconds to turn red hot ). The tape sometimes swells and inflates a bit then BANG. I have avery dented heater! The ap seems to be much more powerful detonated like this than when i fuse it and contain it. Could the ap be vaporing a bit before it goes off? I think there is a short period of time that the ap could be a vapor. If this is true then the ng could have also vapored a bit as it inginted on a heated surface resulting in a larger surface area heating up rapidly. Any thoughts?

snuk5
January 26th, 2004, 12:38 AM
I don't care if anybody says that heat will not set off NG

I know it does.

Way back, I was in a hurry and wanted to test my NG and lacked a detonator.

So I took torch (flashlight) bulbs and ground small slits therein, injected the NG and sealed it
up with epoxy and alu foil.

(I soldered the wires on before I did that, I did not believe that heat does not set it off even then!)

They banged without fail, and I continued to use them for quite some time.

vulture
January 26th, 2004, 05:08 PM
That doesn't mean your NG detonated. When heated or burnt, NG will decompose entirely into gas. In a well sealed container this will always result in a bang.

grendel23
January 27th, 2004, 07:04 AM
Even if it did detonate, it would be a weak, low velocity detonation.
Try a comparison, once the way you described, and once with the same amount of NG properly initiated with a primary. Put both on a piece of sheet metal and see which performs better.
If you can make NG you should be able to make some sort of primary.

Restricted_Dog
January 29th, 2004, 06:55 AM
It might seem like a stupid post in this Thread.

Isn't NitroGlycerin just a decomposition reaction, and as one of my older friends told me, just that little bit of NG makes a big amount of gas, and that is why the Pressure increases dramatically, and therefore the air hitting your ear has so much pressure it almost bursts it. I think you are extremely lucky to still hear, even if it was a small amount, less than 0.2mL.

YayItGoBoom!
January 30th, 2004, 11:22 PM
About the whole NG evaporation bit, it is very well likely that nitration would cause NG to have a lower boiling point. The reason glycerine is so sticky is that it has 3 polar OH regions. The negatives of one O mingle with the positive Hs of other glycerine molecules, and since there is a relatively large amount of them, it sticks together. What you are left with is basically a very thick liquid that will not evaporate easily. On the contrary, the ONO2 structure is symmetrical (cancels polarity), and on top of that, it isn't very polar in the first place. The ONO2 structure replaces the OH, making the whole glycerine molecule much less polar. NG molecules don't attract each other as well, and thus it can evaporate much easier.

Actually, when I made NG in ChemSketch (www.acdlabs.com), it ended up forming a pretty much symmetrical planar molecule, leading me to believe that it is not very polar at all, and would evaporate as fast as, say isopropyl alchohol.

Bert
January 31st, 2004, 12:41 PM
WTF. NG evaporates as fast as isopropyl alcohol? Don't THINK so. Fuck your theory, go look at the facts. Possibly do an experiment, even.

T_Pyro
January 31st, 2004, 02:32 PM
YayItGoBoom!,
You meant to say that glycerine has extensive inter-molecular H-bonding, due to which it is highly viscous. Indeed, NG should be comparatively more volatile than glycerine, but apart from such a comparison, nothing definite can be said about its absolute volatility just by looking at the structure. Hence, you are incorrect in presuming that it will "evaporate as fast as, say isopropyl alchohol".

YayItGoBoom!
January 31st, 2004, 07:56 PM
Alright, yea maybe not as volatile alchohol, that post was late last night. But yes you're right what I meant was that the nitration causes the nature of hydrogen bonding to change. :smacks self out of stupidity for comparing NG to isopropyl: