Improving Whistle Powder for use as Flash Powder?

[Zero-X]

Hello everyone! Yesterday I came across some tubes that could be used as salutes and some fuses and end plugs. The problem was that I had no flash powder to use with my tubes. I came across some Piccolo Petes (a crappy whistling firework) and tried to use the flash powder from them as the charge for the salute. It seemed somewhat like a good idea until I lit the fuse and got a crappy little crack of a report from it. The endplugs and fuse were epoxyed and it was filled 3/4 with the powder. I was wondering if anyone has any ideas on how to improve the whistle powder so that it will give a louder report. I'm not sure what the composition of it is, but I'm guessing that it is 70% Potassium Perchlorate and 30% sodium benzoate. You guys seem extremely knowledgeable and I am excited to hear what you have to say. Thank you ahead of time for any answers or comments that you can give me.

[Mr Cool]

IMHO, 70:30 KClO4:benzoate whistle comp kicks ass for salutes, without any improvements!
Well, OK I use KClO3, but there shouldn't be too much difference in performance.

I'm really not sure how it could be improved, since if it is a 70:30 whistle comp it's already a bloody good mixture!

[Zero-X]

Oh, well I guess my that it cant be that composition, because the report was really weak. Also, I tested the mix for sensitivity and it was virtually impossible to get it to ignite by hitting it with a hammer. Does that give any hint toward what the composition can be? Thanks for your thoughts mr cool.

[yt2095]

i`m with Mr Cool on this one too,
in fact the advantage with whistle over KClO4/Al mix is that it won`t dead press so you don`t need the air gap in your container.
i make a 50/50 mix of whistle and KClO4/Al flash and that seems to work great also.
you may find that with whistle tho, that you`ll get incomplete burn of all of it, as the initial rupturing of the container often scatters some of the powder. try greater confinement several layers of duct tape around your salute.

all the best :)

[Mr Cool]

Maybe your tubes just aren't thick enough for it to reach its full potential?
I've used the KClO3/NaBenzoate mixture in home-made tubes about 10cm long, 3cm wide and with walls approaching 5mm thick. They were made from paper, wetted with dilute PVA solution to hold it all together well after it had dried. I fill salutes about 2/3 full.
The tubes are totally shredded by the explosion, it's rare to find any pieces with a dimension larger than about 3cm.
You can get quite nice effects if you do not wet the paper with PVA; the explosion shreds the walls, and you get a load of confetti-like paper floating in the air.

Would an Admin like to move this thread?

[Zero-X]

Thanks for all of the replys, I tried extracting flash powder from firecrackers and the report was MUCH louder. Maybe my tubes are too thin for the whistle mix. I will try your suggestions and see what I can come up with, if I notice anything interesting I will post it. Thanks

[NickSG]

Like all the others said, whistle mix works really well in salutes, and most of the time confinement is not a problem. I remember dry rolling a tube with craft paper, and made it only 2 layers thick to see how powerful it really was. When it set off it rattled the metal railings on my front porch. With tubes 1/8 inch thick (rolled with glue spread on one side of the paper while rolling) it makes a thunderous report, very similar to my flash powder.

[Cricket]

Maybe if you mix in some good fine metal powder. If you have it, it might something to try.

[Zero-X]

Well, im pretty sure that confinement isnt a problem since when I used flash powder (extracted from firecrackers :o ) it produced a thunderous report. I am going to try confining the hell out of the salute with tape to see if I can get an improvement. I also think that I have some aluminum or magnesium powder around here somewhere.... :)

[Zero-X]

I tried taping the salutes, woah, what a difference! :D The salute had much more power and was way louder, very close to the thunderous bang of the flash powder one. I was unable to find any metal powder to add to the composition, but with a couple layers of tape, it is unnessary. Now I need to try to tape the flash powder ones :p .


Edit: In case anyone was wondering, I was using the 2 1/8" long, 3/4" inside diameter and a 3/32" wall tubes from Cannonfuse.com.

:D Exploding things underwater can be suprisingly fun!

[yt2095]

most splendid!

now here`s another tip i haven`t shared yet and i`m sure some already know/employ it perhaps?, i was going to post it in the "making charcoal" Thread but the guy is interested in rockets and not salutes.

it applies to BP also tho, when you`ve made you tube to put your mix into, especialy a relatively slow burning mix put your fuse in the CENTER of the tube :)
not at the top, it will only burn from top down then, in the center like a `T` shape, it will burn all of it twice as fast, as it will have 2 propogation fronts :)

burning fron center left and right to both ends of your tube,,, same gas quantity, in half the time, effectively doubling your powder burn rate.

taping the flash powder ones (unless it`s homemade flash?) will probably not significantly enhance the report much, but you never know, give it a shot anyway :)

i`m well pleased for you :D

[Mr Cool]

So, confinement was the problem! I thought it would be. Glad you got it sorted out :).

Next time you set something off underwater, try putting an empty paint can / coke can or something in the tank, to see what the shock does to it. I've just thought of this now, it might be interesting to see if you can crush things :D. If you get it just right, you can apparently implode things too. I read somewhere about an effects company using oil drums underwater, with flash charges, to produce water plumes (depth charge effects etc.) by blowing the water up out of the drum. Either the charges weren't big enough to rip the drums open, or the water pressure from outside prevented it, or both. Then I guess the momentum of the water rushing out of the drum, combined with the cooling gas/condensing combustion products in the drum, created an underpressure which sucked in the drum's walls.

Yeah, fuse (cylindrical) charges from the middle. Also, lie them down flat. This way the flame from the two fronts can flash over the top of the powder very quickly, and then it only has to burn down through a thin layer of powder in order to burn all your composition. It's just another way to increase the burn rate.

The quality, and indeed composition, of "flash powder" varies greatly. I doubt extra confinement will help much with flash, but if it's a slower powder then it will.

[Zero-X]

Originally posted by Mr Cool
I doubt extra confinement will help much with flash, but if it's a slower powder then it will. [/B]

Yeah, thats exactly what I was thinking too!

Unfortunately I cant try to see the damage that the salute does to a container that is full of anything because the testing ground is my friend's pool. :D It is dirty enough that no one will tell that we were lighting things underwater. But, we can see the damage that it does to an empty soda can, paint can, etc. I think I will try that out today, if I see anything interesting then I will take a picture and post it. Another thing that is fun is to place it in about 6 inches of water and set it off, when I did it I got a nice ........THUMMMP.... and a splash of water about 30 feet in the air!! :D It can be a helpful remedy to cure boredom.

[NickSG]

Taping a flash powder salute will not increase the report much, but it will raise its shattering power.

[0EZ0]

Next time you set something off underwater, try putting an empty paint can / coke can or something in the tank, to see what the shock does to it. I've just thought of this now, it might be interesting to see if you can crush things. If you get it just right, you can apparently implode things too.

It's interesting that you mention that Mr Cool. I witnessed some tests carried out to see if an implosion effect could be seen when a small charge was detonated in an empty drink can (for uniformity) submerged underwater. A 150mg charge was prepared and secured inside a can. The can was then submerged up to it's rim in a container of water. Upon firing the charge, an implosion effect was clearly seen. The can itself had been severed at the bottom and had been crushed inward at it's places of separation.

If I get some time next week, I'll post a full write-up in a new topic if anyone is interested. Sorry, no pics. But I could try and illustrate what happened using a paint program.

Back to the real topic at hand...

I have always read that Whistle Powder (KClO4:Benzoate) was quite powerful. Easily powerful enough to rupture a thin walled tube with a nice report. In many places it states that in a sense whistle powder is like an organic flash powder with a little less power than traditional 70/30:confused:. Also that in rocket engines, if there are any voids in the whistle powder fuel grain then it will quite readily explode. Maybe I misinterpreted what was written?

[grammarless]

I too have had no difficulties using whistle mix for salutes. I remember my attempts to make rockets from bottle rocket propellant, even packed kind of tightly they would explode quite nicely, and that was in a pen tube with one end open.

[knowledgehungry]

You have to pack it very tightly for it to work as a rocket you would probably need to use a solvent too.

[grammarless]

I found out you do really have to pack it (the hard way) although I eventually got a few rockets to work. I was wondering what type of solvent could be used for whistle mix?

[Zero-X]

Originally posted by grammarless
I found out you do really have to pack it (the hard way) although I eventually got a few rockets to work. I was wondering what type of solvent could be used for whistle mix?

I would imagine that you would use alcohol or acetone, but I don't know what is compatible/incompatible with the composition.

[Sparky]

Potassium (sodium even more so I think) benzoate is very water soluble. Sodium benzoate may have the problem of not drying out. Another thing people use to make whistles easier to press is vaseline. My friend has found that it is easy to add too much vaseline and get no whistling effect. He has also found that vaseline is not necessary, as 7/3 perchlorate/potassium benzoate whistles (at least small ones) are easy enough to press with a vice. BTW, as you probably know never ram whistle mix into a tube, only press it.

[Mr Cool]

0EZ0, what did the charge consist of, and where was it placed in the can? Maybe I will have a go and put up pictures.
Another idea I've got for messing about underwater is directing the shockwave with a parabolic dish. I was wondering for ages how I could make a parabola of sufficient size and strength, that was deep/"long" enough to focus a good portion of the waves. Then I remembered seeing "bullet lamps" for sale at a car shop. As the name suggests, they're kinda bullet-shaped, perhaps 4" wide at the mouth and about the same depth, made out of aluminium about 4mm thick, and although I don't know for sure, I would guess that they were parabolic in order to reflet the light straight ahead, or at least in a fairly tight beam. I'll pick one up and have a play with it.
(Anything I do will be written up in a new thread; if someone wants to start a thread for any other underwater stuff then feel free to do so, and I'll put it in there.)

[0EZ0]

Sorry about the very late reply Mr Cool. The tests were not carried out by myself, so I can't take credit for this experiment.

To answer your questions...

The container was an empty drink can (eg. Coca-cola)
I'm quite sure they used 150mg of AP pressed into a standard .22 brass shell.
The charge was placed inside the can, on the direct centre of the domed bottom.
It was affixed with a dob of quick set adhesive resin.
The can was then submerged up to it's rim in 4 litres of tap water.
The opening in the top of the can was left unsealed.
There was no water inside the can.
The charge was fired by a 10cm length of standard pyrotechnic fuse (1.6mm Diameter, 1cm/sec).
Upon detonation, the can's base was severed and collapsed inward where it had been severed.
The base of the .22 shell had been forced right through the base of the can, through a 1mm thick Al plate, then through the water container and into the earth underneath.

The objective of this test was to see how well a container would hold up against an explosion of a small fragmenting charge while submerged. Frags from the .22 shell were also collected for analysis. Approx 50-60 frags were accounted for if memory serves (quite high).

Mr Cool, I would give it a go. The effects of an implosion can be seen quite clearly. It was quite interesting to see the results. Fragments of the charge container are also very easily collected this way. While negating the need for sand or other material in direct contact with the charge, therefore effecting results.

Regards

[Mr Cool]

Ah, no water in the can! That's where I went wrong :D.
I used roughly 70mg of PETN (column 2mm wide by about 13mm long, hand pressed), initiated with OTC primary (you can get 144 cracker snaps for about a fiver, the primary from two will initiate PETN ;)).

I made a shoddy little support for the charge out of bamboo skewers, so that it was roughly central in the can. The can is not quite full in the picture, but I topped it up before firing.
Afterwards, the white tub was cracked in three places, and the big plastic crate thingy which I put over it all to stop water from going everywhere was flipped over by the water splash! I love PETN :D.

I don't think anything conclusive can be drawn from this!

Before (http://www.boomspeed.com/mrcool/Before.jpg)

After (http://www.boomspeed.com/mrcool/After.jpg)

Still need to get myself a bullet lamp, and an old bath for testing stuff :).

[Tended Tripod]

Sorry if I'm a bit late on this topic, but I've always had excellent results with whistle mix. It exploded quite well even when it was in a tube with only one end plug. I used whistle mix from Picollo Petes, which I ground up in a mortar and pestle (mines ceramic, I've heard they have caused explosions but what else are they made out of?). I know not to grind certain chemicals together with it but commercial whistle mix seems pretty shock and friction stable.

My favorite mix for firecrackers, however, is the whistle mix from whistling bottle rockets combined with the flash powder in the report. This seems to have more power, as instead of just blowing open an empty can, it shatters it into at least 3 pieces.

I make all of my firecrackers out of tubes from a Missile To Mars class c firework. They are 2 and 11/16 in. long, 3/8 in. wide, with 1/16 in. walls. The tubes already have 2 holes through them because of the fuse, so i just put a fuse in one hole, seal the other so no powder gets out, fill it with powder, and plug the open end. For a plug i just crumple a piece of paper about 2 in. by 1 in. and push it into the tube until its flush with the end. Finally I drip some superglue onto it. These firecrackers take me about 30 seconds to 1 minute to make. Delightful...

[blindreeper]

You can get motar and pestles made of glass with a frosted inside to promote grinding.

[Anthony]

I wouldn't grind whistle mix anymore than I would flash as they're essentially the same thing. A dangerous practice IMO.

[vulture]

Try using the chlorate variant. Goes always boom, even if compressed into an open tube. Well, it's more like a loud and sharp crack which returns every casing to dust. :eek:

[mr.pyro]

I have used those crappy little "safe and sane" piccolo petes, for 4th of July activities in California.

Ill tell you what we used to do.

First was get the powder from 1 PP.

Fill a zip lock bag, make sure its in one corner.

Put Powder in 20 oz bottle. Dasani ones work good. Make sure its around the rim with the rest of the bag folded over.

Put cap on on top of bag trying not to spill the powder everywhere.

Drill hole in cap and insert fuse.



Adding water will make more noise.
We were able to get a ground "vibration" from 3 PP's in one bottle thrown down a sewer.

[kano420]

I'm with mister pyro, up here in oregon we to the same thing, unfourtunatly for me this is like the only expirement if have ever been able to get good results with, i'm still a beginer but i am an expert in the piccolo pete field. the trick to making a good piccolo pop bottle is to do like mr. pyro says and use the powder from only 1 piccolo pete!!!!!!!!!!! no more if you use 2 or 3 lots of times all the flash powder wont even burn up and there will be powder all over the ground that didn't burn. The loudest report you will get is to only use 1 piccolo and also heres another tip, fuck a 20oz bottle and use a 2 liter plastic bottle this will give you a much louder report. besides the bottle I agree 100% with mr. pyro's procedure. fuck those Piccols i'm on a mission to make nitrogylerin and then turn it into T.N.T.

-Kano

[Bert]

You're on a mission to do something quite different in my estimation!

[SafetyLast]

Sorry to dredge up such an old topic, but I have been using Piccolo Petes quite successfully lately, the whistle powder works well enough in my opinion and doesn't have to be improved to be used in simple salutes. The plastic widgets from cans of Guiness can be used to make a sort of cherry bomb. I won't go much into detail as I'm sure you've all heard it before, but damn these things are loud!! I use 1 fountain for each widget then dip them in red plasti-dip for an outer coating. These fountains are becoming harder to find however and I think they are trying to ban them because too many people have been injured by modifying them.

fuck those Piccols i'm on a mission to make nitrogylerin and then turn it into T.N.T.
what...the...hell?? hmm, that reminds me, I need to go turn AP into RDX hahaha!

[GlowinPontiac]

Piccolo Petes were banned in CT because they said they shot too big a flame and were a burn hazard.

I still think the real reason is that people were stomping on them to make big salutes and setting them off at 2am in residential neighborhoods.

[Yafmot]

Ah, Piccolo Petes. Back in the '60s (I'm really dating myself here), the trick was to get a pair of Vise Grips and squish the buggers right on the California fire marshall's seal. (How's THAT for irony?) It would loosen he mix at the bottom of the burn so at the end of the whistle you'd get a healthy bang. It doesn't seem to work any more, for some reason.

Anyway, last July 4th, my kid (he's 30) said "Hey, Dad! Whip up something that'll make some real noise!" Always glad to oblige, I put a 3/16 bit in my drill, and buggered a half dozen or so PPs, being careful not to dig too far and get a bunch of clay along with the mix. I had to keep stopping to dig the stuff out of the flutes, but when I was done, I had about 10g of mix which fluffed out nicely with application of a razor blade. Quite a pile, actually.

I dumped it into your standard pill bottle, along with a bunch of "Dragon Eggs" from a couple of packs of those "Crackle Balls," punched a 1/8" hole in the cap, knotted one end of an 8" piece of visco, threaded it through the bottom of the cap and screwed it on, making sure there was no residue on the threads.

Now, here's the important part. I've filament wound a lot of rocket motor casings and other pressure vessels over the years, so I applied this expertise to the device, using that glass fiber reinforced strapping tape that's so hard to snap. First, I wrapped the casing longitudinally (that's lengthwise, for you clowns who flunked english). I went around the jar from end to end, being careful not to crowd the fuse, and also avoiding crumpling the tape, the idea being to distribute the fibers as evenly as possible. It's okay to cut the tape and start a pass from a different angle as long as you don't do it too frequently. these windings will make sure that the cap doesn't go flying before max pressure is reached. It's important that the fibers be distributed as evenly as can be done.

Next, I "hoop wound" the casing, keeping the fibers 90 degrees off the longitudinal axis. These fibers keep the sides from bursting prematurely. Just a couple of layers will suffice.

Finally, I repeated the windings in vinyl electrician's tape, which helps to squish the whole mess down evenly.

What we got was, well, BOOM!!! Followed shortly by a pleasent cracking sound from some very widely dispersed dragon eggs. (My son was tickeled pink & said the crackle was a nice touch.)

SAFE & SANE MY ASS!!!

[Bert]

Back in the 70's I did much the same. A simple 1" cube of cardboard for a case with the fuse coming out at a corner, then 3 wrapings at 90 degrees to each other of 1" filament tape... Using 1 ground bloom flower's powder to 1 picollo pete's increased the yield considerably, and added a good flash from the metal fueled spinner mix. The neighbors would not believe they were "home made" and kept asking where they could buy M-80's too...

The tape wrapped cube works for BP salutes too, substituting strong cotton string soaked in carpenter's glue for the tape is more traditional and cheaper though, if you have the time for it to dry.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I was trying to remember that name ('ground bloom flower') for a very long time. Hell yes, I did that also. Great minds and all that... IIRC "picollo pete's" were sold as far back as Bobby Kennedy. I used a tissue roll-rolled up further and taped the same as the above. Good God, did all of the kids who did that stuff ever grow up? :-]

[Bert]

Growing old is unavoidable. Growing up is allways optional...

[Yafmot]

I think the selection of tape is very important. Use cellophane tape ("Scotch Tape"), and you won't get shit for your trouble. But those glass fibers are very strong, and if you orient the fibers correctly, picking up the load paths induced by the gaseous expansion, the effect is equivalent, and in some cases superior to, a metallic casing. That's why a firefighter's SCBA tank can be made to hold twice the supercritical air as a metallic tank of much greater weight & size. That's the trick with any composite structure: Calculate your load paths and orient your fibers accordingly, always keeping them loaded in tension. I've designed some components with the fibers loaded in compression, but they have to be oriented absolutely dead nuts accurately with the load. Even 1/2 a degree off will fuck things up: As the angle deviates from the load, the strength of the part diminishes exponentially.

This, of course, is using unidirectional fibers, using "tow," or small bundles of individual fibers, for filament winding, or unidirectional "Tape," or "Uni-Tape" for short, where a series of tows are collimated in one direction and impregnated with lightly catylized resin, usually epoxy, called "prepreg."

But this isn't meant to be a treatise on advanced composites, merely to illustrate the best way to create a pressure vessel suitable for your needs. Yes there are woven versions of this stuff, both dry and prepreg, but they would have limited value in the context of this thread. If there is sufficient interest, I'd be glad to start a new thread on the subject of advanced materials and processes. Indeed, modern rocketry and missilery would be impossible without them. Let me know what you think, troops.

[Yafmot]

I think the selection of tape is very important. Use cellophane tape ("Scotch Tape"), and you won't get shit for your trouble. But those glass fibers are very strong, and if you orient the fibers correctly, picking up the load paths induced by the gaseous expansion, the effect is equivalent, and in some cases superior to, a metallic casing. That's why a firefighter's SCBA tank can be made to hold twice the supercritical air as a metallic tank of much greater weight & size. That's the trick with any composite structure: Calculate your load paths and orient your fibers accordingly, always keeping them loaded in tension. I've designed some components with the fibers loaded in compression, but they have to be oriented absolutely dead nuts accurately with the load. Even 1/2 a degree off will fuck things up: As the angle deviates from the load, the strength of the part diminishes exponentially.

This, of course, is using unidirectional fibers, using "tow," or small bundles of individual fibers, for filament winding, or unidirectional "Tape," or "Uni-Tape" for short, where a series of tows are collimated in one direction and impregnated with lightly catylized resin, usually epoxy, called "prepreg."

But this isn't meant to be a treatise on advanced composites, merely to illustrate the best way to create a pressure vessel suitable for your needs. Yes there are woven versions of this stuff, both dry and prepreg, but they would have limited value in the context of this thread. If there is sufficient interest, I'd be glad to start a new thread on the subject of advanced materials and processes. Indeed, modern rocketry and missilery would be impossible without them. Let me know what you think, troops.

[Bert]

There are a number of uses for fiber reinforced tubes in pyrotechnics, particularly in the construction of rocket engines. One of the rocket men who frequent the PGII convention in particular loves to make huge black powder rockets in fiberglass tubes, these things are comparable to the old Congreve rockets in size. The audience NOTICES them, even in the firestorm that is PGII open shooting.

Back to the original topic, here is a video of 500g of whistle mix being ignited unconfined.
http://tinyurl.com/yp9zeq

[Bacon46]

If there is sufficient interest, I'd be glad to start a new thread on the subject of advanced materials and processes. Indeed, modern rocketry and missilery would be impossible without them.

I would definitely be interested in seeing a thread started on the construction of composite rocket motor casings.

[Yafmot]

OK, then, give me a couple of days to work up an outline to construct it from. This stuff isn't any harder than learning any other field, but there is a lot to it, and I've seen some very bright people make some incredibly stupid mistakes.

Bacon, why stop at motor casings? In the "real" world, a lot of missiles are almost ENTIRELY plastic. Nose Cone/Radomes, Fuselages, Fins, Bulkheads, Stiffeners, you name it! Certain of these materials are also good for launchers, gun projectiles/sabots, even barrels!

(Yes, I know how to build a plastic pistol that is nearly undetectable by X-Ray, having done so for "a client." It was a five shot, .45 Auto using entirely nonmetallic materials, even for the ammo. Upon delivery of "the item," along with all drawings, material callout sheets, design notes etc, I was instructeds to destroy any copies, as well as any scrap materials or rejected components, and to NEVER describe specific, critical technologies to ANYONE, OR ELSE! So don't expect anything to do with that program, although the occasional clue will be unavoidable, and could be picked out by a bright viewer.)

I'll leave it to the Mods to decide where to put the thing, since the technology is useful in so many areas, and especially since the first post will be a WHOPPER! Maybe even a whole page worth, though I'll try to be as succinct and to the point as the subject allows.

This ought to be some fun stuff!

[Bacon46]

Thanks Yafmot

You have to start somewhere and rocket motor casings are a good a place as any. Who knows where it will go from there.

Start the thread in the “Tool, Plans and DIY Projects” section.

[Yafmot]

Bacon, I've started a new thread under the tools & DIY section. It's entitled "Advanced Materials and Processes." So far, I've covered Fibers, and their manufacture and general properties. Next will be Matrix Materials (resins & such). Then will be processes. Then I'll wrap the polymeric material with a discussion of design considerations.

After that, I'll delve into refractory metals and Metal Matrix Composites (MMCs). Finally, we'll discuss High Performance Ceramics and Ceramic Matrix Composites (CMCs).

There will be some overlap between these topics. This is inevitable for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the way the Forum is structured. This is a good thing: Questions get answered as we go along, rather than at the end.

So, Bacon, by the time we're finished, you'll be able to design a lot more than just rocket motor casings. But if you just absolutely have to make some plastic motors yesterday, we can work something out. Maybe a separate thread, or something.