AN mix VS. ANFO

[ancalagon]

I've used AN before to add power to or desensitize other explosives, but have never actually made ANFO. It seemed to me to be a waste of time, when one can use a much more powerful explosive that is more sensitive yet still stable. However, I'm always interested on learning new things. My question is, will an AN powder mix be more sensitive and/or powerful than ANFO? The mix is as follows

-AN
-Hexamine
-Black Powder

VS.

-AN
-Gasoline
-Naptha
-Toluene
-Petroleum Jelly
-Acetone
-(add or take away whichever fuels are a bad idea)

Both will need quite a shock to detanate. I was thinking that several CO2 cartridges (which I have laying around) detonated by a dozen or so .22 level 5 remington nailgun shot (which I also have lying around) might work.
Any comments or advice would be appreciated, even telling me that I'm an idiot, as long as you explain why.:rolleyes:

[Al Nobel]

It would be usefull to know which ratios you want to use.
The mix you want to use looks quite suspect to me.Maybe you can detonate it but for me it looks like a crapbook recipe.

The sensitivity of ANFO is a secound thing.You can produce cap sensitive ANFO by using activated AN or by adding sensitiving agents.This ANFO can be detonated by a simple 1g AP cap.Normal ANFO on the other side requires large booster charges to reach a full detonation.

When you ask for power then the question is what do you regard as power? High detonation velocity,high gas volume or what?

"Both will need quite a shock to detanate. I was thinking that several CO2 cartridges (which I have laying around) detonated by a dozen or so .22 level 5 remington nailgun shot (which I also have lying around) might work."

Maybe my english is to a bit crappy,but I really can´t understand what you mean by this sentence.Do you want to fill the CO2`s and shoot at it or do you want to use them as detonaters?

[Spudkilla]

It seems to me that those mixes would not sensitize the AN very much. AN combined with black powder would be just that, a HE combined with an LE. Unless I am mistaken, you need a primary to senistize something. When you light off the AN/BP mix, the black powder will explode, throwing the AN around, since low explosives do not detonate high explosives. Adding hexamine to the mix wouldn't do much more than that either.

The exploding CO2 canisters detonated by .22 level 5 remington nail shot would not detonate the AN mix either, because it would still only be a low explosion. You might succede in lighting the volatile chemicals in the mixes on fire when the nail shot went off, but the exploding C02 would probably snuff out any burning.

However, some of you second mixes might work, but they still need a proper blasting cap to be detonated. I performed a search just now on HMTD combined AN, but I didn't feel like going through the 8 pages of search results. I did find that someone combined 250 mg of AN with 6 % bronze paint and some styrofoam prills and sucesfully detonated it with 10 grams of AP.

[kingspaz]

ancalagon, if you want to make ammonium nitrate secondary explosives then you must first make a big fat ass compound detonator. this will work wonders to the success of the AN mixtures you have described.
also, ammonium nitrate explosives generally require a booster charge unless alot of effort is put into preparing the AN carefully. a booster opf say 20g TNP detonated with say 2g MHN and a gram of double salts would give a very high probability of complete detonation ensuring good confinement of the AN mixture.

if i was you i'd learn to walk before i ran...

[Efraim_barkbit]

this has probably been mentioned before, but what about mixing AN with nitro methane as a fuel? not as the traditional ANNM, but in the same proportions as ANFO?

maybee the NM might not sentezize AN more than regular FO in such small quantitys, or not enough to be worth the extra cost?

it could sure save me some money compared to the 75/25 ANNM. I´ll test some ANFO soon too, maybee do a test on NM-ANFO, if you guys think it´ll be worth it. I´m also thinking of getting a 200g ANNM charge on tape to morrow. I´d love to watch it go off more than once...

[ALENGOSVIG1]

I've NEVER had a failed detonation of any well confined (buried 2 or 3 ft. usually) AN/FO mix when using 100g of 60% equivalent ammonia dynamite.

[DBSP]

If you want an easily detonated AN mixtry ANwax. Go to the nearest store an buy a bottle of wax floor polish, add 3% (it won't hurt to add some Al either, a few extra ml of acetone can allso be added to make the mixing a bit easier)of the polish to finely powdered AN and simply pour the mix into the casing without tamping it. A 2g cap will be sufficient to detonate it.

I've never tried traditional prilled ANFO, allthough I have tried powdered ANFO. The first time i tried it 2 years ago I got a partial detonation of a 1,5kg charge, I used a 40g AP det, not very well pressed either, just tamped.

The second time last summer I very succesfully detonated a 0,57 kg ANrapsoil charge, with a 50g ANNM charge. The AN had a very low density and was very porous. I had recrystalized it and foamed it to lower the density. A 20g booster had probably been enaugh but I hate missfires so I used a 50g just to be shure.

[ancalagon]

if i was you i'd learn to walk before i ran...
Actually, am trying to walk after running. Normally I wouldn't bother with trying to get AN to detonate, because the explosive power one could get from AN is close to that which is needed to detonate it in the first place. However, for the sake of knowledge...

I think basically what I would like to know is how much power do I need to detonate a small amount (maybe half again the minimal amount necessary for detonation) of AN powder mix or ANFO? One reason I'm doing this is because I would like to learn new uses for somethings I often have lying around anyway (CO2 cartridges and nailgun cartridges). A single nailgun cartridge (power level 1) will drive a nail through medium hard concrete. A single power level 2 cartridge will drive a nail through hard concrete or thin metal. I have level five, and six is the most powerful. I was thinking that a layer of 7 or 8 CO2 cartridges backed in black powder, underneath a layer of a dozen or more nailgun cartridges (faced downward) also packed in black powder, might provide enough power to detonate a bottom layer of AN powder mix or a layer of ANFO.

-Ancalagon

[DBSP]

I'd definately stop thinking about using CO2 to detonate ANFO. Sure the cartidges may be powerful but it still can't compete with the extremely fast and powerfull shockwave from a HE.

It might very well work with sensitive explosives, primaries etc. maby even with some seconday HEs but not ANFO, thats hoping for a bit to much I'd say.

[kingspaz]

ancalagon, let me quote myself 'if you want to make ammonium nitrate secondary explosives then you must first make a big fat ass compound detonator'

accept it, you NEED a primary explosive preferably initiating a high velocity secondary explosive as part of a compound detonator.

now, listen to what people have told you instead of going on about how you think it will work. the answer is quite simple, as has already been stated by me and others - IT WON'T WORK.

[ancalagon]

Okay, You win. Now to figure out what "simple" primary explosive to use. I swear this the last time I make plans using AN alone as an explosive. I'd ask how much power I need, but I'm sure that information is available elsewhere via a simple searh. Thanks folks!

-Ancalagon

[kingspaz]

its not a question of power. its a question of impulse. like i said before, walk before you can run otherwise you'll fall flat on your face. make some primaries and experiment with those for a bit before you go on to secondary explosives.

[Sonny Jim]

Test each stage of the detonator you plan individually, before throwing it all together into one bastard of a detonator. EG. Say you planned on an initial 2g AP detonator, test it first, then when you know it works, put it into your booster and test that. Only then should you go for your big detonation.

[blindreeper]

Well there are Laws and Rules. Laws you don't mess with but rules can be bent and sometimes broken (man was I watching too much matrix :p )
You don't need a primary, but it is so much easier.

Shockwaves (http://www.shockwavesite.tk/) site shows that you can detonate NG with flash which involves no nasty primaries.

Go to the "Tests and Results" section then go to the "Flash at Nitroglycerine" section to find info there.

Sorry to bust the bubble kingspaz :p [ali G voice]unlucky[/ali G voice]

[ALENGOSVIG1]

As i've said before, using low power detonators or firecrackers to detonate NG will give considerably less power, especially if in tubes less than an inch or two in diamater. Just use a gram of AP.

AP's not that bad. Just store it soaking wet and dry out small amounts as needed.

[kingspaz]

blindreeper, you haven't busted any 'bubble' of mine. i know SENSITIVE secondaries can be detonated without a detonator.

maybe you should look at the title of this thread and the first post, then consider my posts, instead of trying to be a smart ass.

[ancalagon]

I'm thinking of mixing the AN powder I have with AP. AP is definitly powerful enough for AN, and it is very sensitive. The question is, should I use a booster charge for the AP?

-Ancalagon

[yt2095]

APAN is a good choice :) unless you have access to NM then I`de personaly go with that.
if your using AP to detonate the APAN then you`ll only need a fuse, no booster is needed at all, and you may as well keep your .22 nailgun caps for something else (maybe empty them and dissole the primer in acetone to make a decent det cap?

the APAN thread (still visible today 23/7/03) will tell you ALL you need to know about this, I know, `cause I`ve just spent about 2 hours reading it all :)

AN vs ANFO, well it realy all depends on your mix!, a bit like saying how long`s a peice of string realy :)

All the best anyway :)

Edit: 24/7/03. Perhaps if your uncertain as to a booster, the method I employ in my det caps maybe usefull to you.
start with 1 Gram AN (fine powder) add 1 spatula of AP (sorry it`s in volume) about 20%.
then put 30% of your mix into a sealed drinking straw.
add another spatula of AP, mix and do the same again, and continue untill your straw is full.
APAN at base of straw at 20% AP, graduated up to pure AP.
it`s a bit like forcing a DDT reaction, using a graduated combination from primary to secondary H.E.
use what ever percentage you feel comfortable with and graduation layers. this method has never let me down yet. I employ the same method (different chems) for viscose fuse lit thermite!

[ancalagon]

I didn't want to start a new post with this, even those this is not about a high explosive. I was interested in the suggestion by yt2095 to convert the .22's into detonaters by dissolving them in acetone. This should be very easy, since the cartridges are crimped (making them fairly easy to open) and I have plenty of acetone. However, is there some step that I might be missing here? Or is this as simple as it sounds?

-Ancalagon