Success with rockets!! :D - what worked for me.

[Pyroboy]

Well I'm pleased to inform you all I've finally been successful with
black powder rockets. It's a great day for me after mastering
everything else (pyro wise) and after many explosions before any kind of lift off
or just poor results I've done it! Without the use of a press to!

Here is what's worked for me...
I used a 12mm diameter steel rod to ram the rockets. I rolled the
tubes out of cardboard nice and thick. I ground up some kitty litter
in my ball mill for the end plugs (the cheapest kind). I used a length
of PVC pipe as the sleeve with hose clamps.

I made three rockets, one was meal powder 75, 15, 10. The other was
KNO3 6, Charcoal 3, Sulphur 1. The last one was the "5 cent sugar
rocket fuel"

Each composition was ball milled for around an hour.

I placed the rocket in the sleeve, added the finely powdered kitty
little rammed it till it was pressed satisfactorily. I then added the
composition rammed that then more kitty litter.

For the meal powder rocket I drilled the nozzle with a 3mm drill bit
only until it just touched the comp. For the 6,3,1 comp rocket and the
"5 cent sugar rocket fuel" I drilled through the kitty litter and just
over half way into the comp (at very low speed).

The meal powder rocket was great took off just as well as any Estes
brand rocket and had a nice raw to it.

The 6, 3, 1 comp was beautiful had a nice tail of charcoal sparks and
reached about 2/3 the height of the meal powder one. It was much like
the class C rockets I've brought.

Finally the sugar rocket was nothing but a disappointment. It went
about 8 feet high then shot off to the side and burnt on the ground.

But the other two were fantastic and after trying many times I'm a
very happy bloke. Now, what payload shall I add.... ;)

Stay green, Matt.

[NickSG]

Of all the KNO3/sugar rockets, all the dry mixed ones failed. When the comp was melted together, it took off much higher, but for larger rockets, it doesnt seem to work well.

Try ball milling your meal powder for about 24 hours, and you should be even more satisfied. :)

[Pyroboy]

I've had KNO3/sugar rockets take of when melted together. The reason I gave this a go is because it seemed like it was a tested and proven formula. After ball milling it, the burn rate was as solid and consistent and when it has been melted together.

As for milling for 24 hours I don't know if that would help, once milling for more than an hour the powders seem to get so fine that they become a little damp and it forms a solid mass at one end of the mill jar. That's even after drying the KNO3 in the oven for an hour. (while no one else is home) ;)

I'm not just talking about KNO3/sugar it happens for black powder as well. It may be because it's pretty cold in the shed...

Still powders milled for 1 hour compared to 5 only show a small difference.

Matt.

[static_firefly]

The rockets is use are candy (kno3 iceing sugar 60/40). First i drive off all the water by placeing the kno3 on a hot water bottle, from my results this helps a great deal. The rockets use car body filler (some sort of epoxy) as an end plug. This i found is good because it drys hard, sticks well, can take a lot of heat and drys in about 10 min, so i am able to have 10 or so rockets ready to go with in 30min. Iv always rammed this comp and out of 20 rockets my current type is up to 100%sucess rate. I was thinking about making 6 rockets, 3 kno3/sugar and 3 kno3/s/sugar and filming the results to compare, however i cant seem to get the DV cam to work on the computer anymore.

[Total_CDRW]

How well does Black Powder work with larger rockets? I've got about an inch diameter casing with Rock Putty for the Nozzle. What would be a good size for the nozzle?

[Pyroboy]

Sounds good static_firefly I'd be interested in the results. Total_CDRW, for a one inch diameter black powder rocket I think the nozzle may need to be press or glued in because it may blow out. As for me I'm going to try nozzleless black powder rockets this weekend so I will post the results.

Matt.

[BANG_BANG]

I don't suggest using black powder to start rocketry. The KNO3/Sugar(you can use dextrin)
is a better fuel to use go to richard nakka web site it has heaps of info on those type of propellants his site is www.nakka-rocketry.net it's realy cool you can even make rocket motors out of PVC tubing.

[Axt]

Ive recently tried to make a KNO3 / rolled newspaper propellant, something thats never going to be a high performance fuel but was done simply for the sake of making something big thats easy.

The grain was just KNO3 impregnated newspaper (think AN smokebomb but with KNO3), Ive uploaded a movie here (http://geocities.com/roguemovies2/index.html) of the test done in 40mm PVC tube buried into the ground, while it was hardly perfect, it showed promise.

Things that should make it better would be a smaller core and have it ignited right up the core with BP soaked cotton string, as it was only ignited at the end in the test hence its slow startup.

[Total_CDRW]

Is there a point when your rocket is too heavy to lift off? Cus i think i did it... Though I did use a Nail mashed into the center while the KNO3/Sugar was still plyable, when i launched it, it just sat there spurting massive amounts of smoke. How can I get these to work? Should i use a smaller tube?

[kingspaz]

'How can I get these to work? Should i use a smaller tube?'
yes we all know the exact circumstances of you rocket failing including the amount of fuel, the diamter and length of the rocket and its fuel segment. we also know the material the rocket was made from and the payload it carried.

now please use some sense and post EXACT circumstances before you expect an answer :rolleyes:

[Total_CDRW]

Sorry, mine is a 1 inch diameter 4 inch long rocket and filled it with the Melted Sugar/KNO3 mix, it's a heafty weight, should i have cored it? Do they need a nozzle?

It's a trouble to get the stuff off the pan and into the rocket, it sticks to everything.

Edit: my sandwich was taking all my brain power when i posted last ^ .

[kingspaz]

i think a nozzle would have worked wonders. it would have increased pressure so made the fuel burn faster. like BP in a pipe sort of thing.

[Total_CDRW]

K, i'll try that next time, i got a casing i made, and i made a nozzle out of rock putty. If i do a 50/50 mix it's more runny, but less powerful correct? If i do the normal 40/60 it's too thick to get into the casing, should i just plan for a loss, it's fun burning the stuff off my iron pan (Even though the firetrucks went around my neighborhood 3 times looking for the fire last week). KNO3/Sugar is the ulimate smoke mixture from what i've seen, slow and smokey!

[Axt]

hmmmm...

I just constructed another KNO3/newspaper engine, but this time primed the core with a BP/NC/acetone paint to ignite it all at once.

http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/rocketfuel.jpg

When ignited ... It blew to shreds.

movie - http://geocities.com/roguemovies2/

Really should have used the thicker PVC!

[Pyroboy]

It's suprizing how much power you can get out of newspaper as a fuel, I'll have to give it a go. Axt your videos are great keep them coming, I sent you an email did you get it?

I'm yet to try the nozzeless black powder rockets but I may give it a go this weekend.

Matt.

[Axt]

When confined the burn rate increases dramatically, combined with the flame propogation between the sheets of paper it burns quite fast. NH4NO3 / newspaper may be even better if its burn rate increases like KNO3 does.

No more videos, for a couple months anyway. I dont actually check my mail anymore, too much spam + I dont really like talking over it, nothing personal.

That last vid was a nozzeless BP rocket, bound with a bit of epoxy with a small core to get it moving in a 15mm PVC pipe.

ps. Ive found "Agnews Water Putty" (bunnings) to be good for the nozzels sets in about 3 hours. Ive never found an epoxy putty that can take heat.

[yt2095]

Axt, Congrats :D

it`s good to see someone`s had some luck using this method, great pics too!
I used to use the same principal using toilet paper and NaClO3 all mine exploded though :(
IF i ever get permission from the missus to make my own rockets again, I`ll try your method as I have plenty KNO3 now, it just means I`ll have to sacrafice my page 3 collection :)
keep up the great work and pics, I love seeing what other folk get up to, all theory can get a bit boring.

Nice 1 :)

[Arkangel]

Axt, you probably do need a thicker tube, however, a major problem if I see your picture right is that your nozzle is way too small. The nozzle as a rough guide has to be 1/3 the area of the tube. Any less and you're going to have problems with overpressure. I haven't seen your video(slow dialup today), but I imagine it burnt ok initially, slowly lifted off and then CATO'd??

Looks like you have a nice solid fuel grain though.

[Axt]

Well, I wouldnt call the two ive tried a success, but they show promise. The picture doesnt show the nozzel very well, its actually the same size as the core but still a lot less then 1/3 the area.

Are you sure its 1/3 area or 1/3 the diametre? I was going off the static test which used the same sized nozzel but it seems the priming made all the difference, so if I was to do it again I would heed your advice and use a larger nozzel.

It was only under thrust for 1 frame until it burst -

http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/papercato.jpg

[Arkangel]

Good pics dude.

Yes, that's exactly as I'd imagined. It ignites, starts to produce thrust, and then as the burning surface area increases you overpressure and explode.

1/3 the area of the tube internally - for a simple motor. It would be ideal to have an ablative lining to the nozzle, so that it erodes as the motor burns, enlarging the nozzle as the core expands. OR something more sophisticated like a "bates grain" or star shaped core or something

[Arkangel]

Apparently I can now only edit messages for 1440 minutes after posting them, so here's another thing.

I've given up on the idea of priming my rocket cores with BP or anything else. I'm fortunate in having lots of quickmatch, so what I do is take a length of it, strip the sleeve off the same length as the rocket core. I then insert it into my core, all the way to the top.

Since using this I've not had a single problem with chuffing, and my launches are perfect (when the rocket's built right)

ALSO, I've had a couple of unexplained CATO's recently, and the only thing I can think is that I damaged the cardboard when I was ramming it. I've noticed that sometimes the tube gets a little kinked. Basically it's due to trying to ram too much fuel at a time. The cure for this is to take more time, ramming more, smaller increments (TOO slow for someone as impatient as me) Or getting a hydraulic press.. The latter is definitely something I want to do. I'm looking out for a secondhand 20 or 40 ton hydraulic press. Once I have it, I'll get my tooling replicated so that I can make 6 or more rockets at one time. I'll naturally get sleeves to stop the tubes bursting under pressure. Should make very solid, smoother burning motors - shit, that's almost like being a professional:eek:

[Pyroboy]

Almost like? ;) After I finish my star roller the hydraulic press is my next project. Since that first post I've continued to have great success with the straight bp rockets. Using the 6 3 1 formula has let me down since the first test. Those rockets take off then lose power and end up burning on the ground. It may have something to do with the core but the first one looked fantastic. I'm going to try wetting the comp and drying it because it should give a faster burn rate. At the moment I'm pushing the straight bp rockets to there limits by slowly drilling further into the bp each time. The first one I made I drilled a core all the way in and it just blew up. Currently all I'm doing is drilling into the kitty litter plug and just into the BP and although they're working fantastic I think I can get a little more power out of them. :)

[static_firefly]

Ok i just tested a few rockets not long ago. I tryed the kno3/newspaper and it didnt even look like it was going to move, which dissaponted me. Then i tryed kno3/sugar/sulphur and just plain old kno3/sugar. They were a little sluggish at first since i didnt spark the cores however they worked and i attempted to film them (filming a rocket is much more diffcult then i thought, i could barely see it, to fast to small). I could show you all, but i dont have anywhere to store them. Axt when useing kno3/news do u bash all the excess kno3 that develops on the paper off?

[Axt]

I just poured boiling water over excess KNO3 forming saturated solution, when cool enough to get my hands in there I soaked the paper and dried it by hanging each sheet seperately outside. Dont brush it off, you need as much as you can get and each sheet should be dried seperately.

If you roll up the paper, set fire to it there should be some pearling of the KNO3 as it belches dark grey smoke.

Geocities Is good enough to host movies up to 5MB.

[PACKIN' PLASTIC]

This mix seems to work well even in less than professional rocket motors.

65% Coffee milled KNO3
35% Coffee milled Table sugar (granular table sugar is cornstarch free)

Once melted together and cooled it can be ground again.

Ground with a meat grinder into "grains" it can then be packed into a casing and burns faster than a solid casting.

Broken into small pieces then coffee milled it burns very, very fast loose but as it clumps together it burns more slowly.

Spent, deprimed shotgun shells with a paper lining (to slow melting) are nice because they have a sturdy nozzle built it.



PP

[Arkangel]

PP, is there a lot of cornstarch in other sugars? I generally use icing sugar in my rockets as it's already finer. Is the cornstarch inert?

The shotgun shell rocket is an interesting idea. I already use them for salutes - one inside the other but have never tried them in a rocket form. What is the rest of your construction like?

Coffee grinding ANY kind of complete fuel is dangerous. I know of people who have done it with a bp mix, but really they and you are asking for trouble.

[Pyroboy]

I've found the best way to prepare KNO3/sugar comp is to add enough water to dissolve the mix then boil it off and continue to heat the mix just until the sugar starts to melt as it would if you were melting the composition dry. It burns quite fast and consistent. I've made very large rockets out of this fuel that have worked quite well.

[Anthony]

Is everyone elses' KNO3/Sucrose sticky like mine? I wouldn't have put it in a coffee grinder/blender for fear of totally gumming it up.

[PACKIN' PLASTIC]

Arkangel,

I don't know exactly how much corn starch is in iceing sugar or how it affects the final fuel. I just like the idea of using pure sugar:)

I placed the paper-lined shell casing over a rod and tamped in the ground fuel around the rod. I then put some sealed the end with a wad and duct tape. I just used paper but a one piece fiber wad for reloading would probable work nicely. This method is not perfect, the duct tape has blown open before making a pretty loud "pop". Maybe if a wood or plastic plug were glued in with epoxy or super glue it would produce a stronger and more streamlined motor?

I fired these by taping them to skewer sticks.

I would be concerned with using shotgun casings for salutes because the brass base would make pretty good shrapnel. (unless that is what you are after ;) )

I only coffee grind a little fuel at a time outdoors, it would be hard to light with a steel blade.


Anthony,

It did gum up the upper plastic part but cleaned up with soap and water.



PP

[Sparky]

Washing your coffee grinder with water can and probably will destroy it. Water gets into the cheap ass bearing and rust it. I've seen it happen twice to my friend.

[kvitekrist]

hello guys :)

I thought i might post the video from our last static rocket test..

video (http://home.no/kvitekrist/stasj/statisk%20test%20320x50.wmv)

aluminum body
nozzle made of some stainless steel I found in the machine shop
500g of KNO3/Sorbitol fuel
estamated pressure 60-70kg


Sorry for the norwegian..

[Desmikes]

that's some impressive gas formation, Kvite, nice vid. Did your fuel come in contact with the al body or did you insulate it with something? Usually I cannot get as consistent of a burning rate as you did when packing that type of fuel in bare metal, it burns much more rapidly as it heats up.
what did you mean when you said that the pressure was 60kg

[Arkangel]

I'm guessing he means thrust.

I don't know if it's supposed to do it, but it almost looks like the test guage/stand breaks under the thrust. Very impressive though!

[kvitekrist]

hehe.. the testbench did break :)

but we had tested it before, so it should hold up to around 60kg


the fuel was casted in a cardboardliner(?) about 2mm thick, and when we open the motor after testing the cardboard was quite intact.

this baby is going to the skies soon :)


some pictures:

1 (http://home.no/kvitekrist/stasj/rk1.jpg)
2 (http://home.no/kvitekrist/stasj/rk2.jpg)
3 (http://home.no/kvitekrist/stasj/rk3.jpg)

[Arkangel]

Looks great!

You might want to look at the James Yawn (http://www.jamesyawn.com/) site, since he's got lots of interesting information about aluminium motor bodies, and casting nozzles. Your nozzle is going to be very strong, but it will also add quite a bit of weight.

[kvitekrist]

the weight with fuel is 1,6kg.. ofcourse you could reduce that weight by making the nozzle lighter.

I have read quite a bit on James Yawns site and nakka rocketry, also we have gotten som information from a norwegian site called www.near.no

[pornopete]

Ok i dont know if anyone is still following this thread but anyway. Im having a cunt of a time with my black powder rockets. They are about 7cm long by 1.5cm in diameter the nozzle is about 4mil. When on a stick about 3 times the length of rocket they take of about a meter high then shoot into the ground, Ive tried them on a longer stick to stabilise them but now they dont even get off the ground. There is plenty of thrust happening. Ive inspected the rockets after burnout and everything is intack no blow outs in either end.Can anyone help??

[blindreeper]

7cm x 3 is 21cm right? Thats way too short for a guide stick. The rocket is good and all dimension wise(seems to be). I personnaly use a 40cm garden bamboo stick with a rocket 10cm long, 12.5mm ID and a 3mm nozzle and they go fairly straight.
Here (http://www.geocities.com/blindreeper_chemistry/rockets.html) is my rocket page if it helps at all. It has a crappy wooden spindle style BP rocket and some with an aluminium spindle.

[Axt]

Blindreeper is right about the stick length, too short. But since your engine isnt powerful enough for a longer stick you can either make the engine casing lighter, or use a light, stiff stick with the end weighted. This means the stick is the same weight as what is working for you now, but the centre of weight has changed giving the stick more leverage to keep it upright. A longer, thinner stick will have the same effect.

[Crazy Swede]

There's an old method for verifying the correct length for the stick on a traditional rocket:

Place your index finger under the stick, approximately one spindle length back of the nozzle. There, the rocket should be able to rest in balance, without tilting too much up or down.

For small rocket motors, like the one you describe, it is essential to keep the weight down!

The lightest rockets sticks available to me have been dry reed stems (hope I chose the right botanical name there, I’m talking about the high, grass like plants with hollow stems that grow in shallow waters).

To keep the weight of the motor down, you could try to crimp the nozzle instead of using clay, if that’s what you do!

Finally, are you really sure your motor really has enough thrust? A good rocket should leave ground very quickly and if the stick is too short, that should only influence the precision of the flight!

[pornopete]

Now im not so sure...I use car bog for my nozzle. There seems to be alot of thrust judging from the noise and the flame shooting out of the nozzle But when i change the stick length there is no flight at all. Ill do more experiments today once my new batch of BP is milled. Is there a site on rockets that state what dimensions to use all the ones ive looked at have failed to say?thanks

[pornopete]

Ok i rolled thinner engines drilled a tiny nozzle(about 1.5mil) and put it on a huge stick this baby flew straight as didnt go high but it was straight so im stoked thanks for all your help.

[ronald]

Could you explain in detail, how are those newspaper fueled rockets made? How do you get that fine layer of KNO3 on the newspaper?

[blindreeper]

I would imagine the newspaper has impregnated with KNO3 but maing a saturated solution of KNO3 and soaking the newspaper in it and letting it dry. I would also dry the impregnated newspaper in an oven to make sure all water was out.

[xyz]

Yes, blindreeper is right and you would have known that already if you had read the thread properly ronald :rolleyes:

[ronald]

But you havent worked out, how to get the best fuel and oxidizer ratio? And how about perfomance compared to KNSU? Id asume its quite a lot lower, but how much?

But what do you think about dissolving the newspaper(/cellulose?) itself too? Like toilet paper and those egg boxes are sometimes made. Should give quite a good mixture!

[xyz]

OK, for one thing, cellulose is not dissolved in paper manufacture.

Second, The easiest way to get the correct ratios is to start off with an excess of KNO3, then continue making the composition with smaller and smaller amounts of KNO3 until no excess KNO3 (little white beads) is left over when the comp is burnt.