N,N-Diethyl-m-toluamide and Pyridostigmine bromide

[Spudkilla]

Well, it is summer, and the usual batch of mosquitoes and ticks and all the other worthless insects are about. So, out comes the insecticide spray/lotion. Most, if not all insecticides contain N,N-Diethyl-m-toluamide, or DEET. In concentrations greater than 30 %, DEET has been known to cause serious seizures and blood related problems, just by being sprayed on the skin.

In the Gulf War, soldiers took pyridostigmine bromide pills, which allow anti-nerve gas agents to work faster. Pyridostigmine makes DEET 10 times more toxic. Soldiers who used the pyridostigime and insecticide containing DEET suffered severe mental damage, or Gulf War Syndrome.

I got to thinking, what if one concentrated some store bought bug spray, and combined it with crushed up pyridostigmine pills, and rigged it to some sort of explosive or spray device, would it render people useless? If dispersed in a a building, it would cause seizures and, couple that with armed robbery or a terroristic attack, all exposed would suffer mental damage. Just an idea I had. I searched the net for quite a while looking for N,N-Diethyl-m-toluamide synthesis, and the only useful thing I came across was this:

"In the preparation of the insect repellent DEET, lab procedures prepare the intermediate m-toluoyl chloride by heating m-toluic acid with thionyl chloride for times ranging from 15 to 45 minutes. The acid chloride is then worked up under Schotten-Baumann conditions to yield DEET."

Not very informative, eh?

[Bander]

I do not think DEET is as dangerous as you may believe. I've bought and applied high 90s percentage DEET to my skin before in large volumes with no noticable effects. Being in the US, as well, I do not think the FDA would allow one such as myself to buy the said high concentration deet if it were as debilitating as you suggest. You can find/buy it in 100% concentrations quite easily on Froogle (http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=DEET&btnG=Froogle+Search). Perhaps it is dangerous with pyridostigmine bromide, but no one seems sure at this point in time.
There have been a few reports of systemic reactions from repeated cutaneous exposure to deet. For example, in 6 girls ranging in age from 17 months to 8 years, behavioral changes, ataxia, encephalopathy, seizures, and/or coma developed after repeated cutaneous exposure to deet; 3 subsequently died.[3] In addition, episodes of confusion, irritability, and insomnia have been reported by Everglades National Park employees following repeated and prolonged use of deet.[3] However, a few reports of adverse reactions to deet should not be misconstrued to mean that repellents are dangerous and are not to be used. All commercially available repellents are generally safe when used according to their label instructions. This short review discusses various chemical repellents, their modes of action, possible side effects, and precautions necessary to prevent adverse reactions.
Considering that I've literally poured a small bottle of 100% DEET on my neck in a desperate attempt to escape a cloud of mosquitoes, I do not think any explosives dispersal meathod will work. Probably not even a bucket dumped on someone.

But, again, I know nothing of it's interactions with pyridostigmine bromide (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10750168&dopt=Abstract), even those studying the issue seem unsure. If all that it does is enhance the lethality, I don't think 10 times will do.

[Nihilist]

yeah, I agree, it won't be all that useful. This is what the EPA has to say http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/deet.htm and they do say that 100% DEET is sold as a consumer product, just to back up Bander's statement. Even with the bromide, it still seems that even if you could cause damage, it wouldn't be an immediate effect, and thus useless for the robbery idea, but maybe applicable elsewhere. Also a bomb or spray can definitely would not work, because the victim must be exposed to it for a long period of time, also I think that the bromide has to be eaten and not just absorbed through the skin, or inhaled. It might be an interesting way of getting rid of a witness to a crime though, without actually killing them, seeing as the soldiers in the gulf went crazy, maybe a witness would no longer be considered fit to testify?

[MrSamosa]

Oh, the idea is not completely unusable! Don't let us forget the broad methods and means of weaponization! That is where I see the problem with DEET... Though it is potentially toxic, it is simply not weaponized to cause harm to humans; just insects at the moment.

Does anyone have an idea how DEET reacts with the body chemistry? Because if we understand that, in particular the target organs and systems, then we can find means to facilitate the actions of DEET.

[Nihilist]

Here ya go, all the info you will ever need on DEET. http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/carbaryl-dicrotophos/deet-ext.html it seems that there are 3 different isomers. There are trace amounts of the other 2 in OTC DEET. The o-DEET is said to be slightly, but not significantly more toxic. The above web site contains actual laboratory expirements involving rats, rabbits, and mice. Most of them seem to say that it won't work too well as a CW. But maybe you will see something I didn't.

[nbk2000]

I doubt DEET would be very effective in interacting with PB. However, perhaps long-term exposure to very low levels of OPA compounds, combined with PB exposure in a targeted individual, would result in a "soft" kill of a fucked up mind with a fatigued body, just like Gulf War Syndrome.

I don't know what PB tastes like, but if it could be put into something the target would chronically ingest, like his morning coffee (via impregnated filters), then be exposed to an OPA in his vehicle driving to and from work during the commute, you'd likely have a GWS casualty in a few months at most.

How do carbamides react with PB? I believe carbamides were used as sand fly suppressant during GW, and that is suspected of having the adverse reactions with PB that may be the cause of GWS.