Detonation of sodium nitrate

[knowledgehungry]

Ok, here is what was done, 1 gram of NaNO3 was mixed with 1 gram MEKP, a fuse was inserted, the charge was placed in a bucket of sand, the fuse was lit. A thump sound occured and the sand flew about 4 inches in the air(bucket was completely filled with sand 3.5 gallon bucket), the sand was searched for NaNO3, but none was found. My question is thus do you think that it is possible for the NaNO3 to have detonated? I've never seen anything about it being detonated, although i have seen KNO3 being detonated.

[blindreeper]

You have probably seen this thread (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=207&highlight=Potassium+Nitrate+Nitromethane) posted by Anthony. It looks at Na/K nitrate detonations with NM as a sensatiser but I am not sure if the nitrates were detonating only the NM. Anyway the damage pics speak for themself.

[xyz]

In my opinion, alkali metal nitrates can be detonated if they are mixed with a fuel and/or an oxygen deficient explosive (like MEKP, AP, etc).

I have had a lot of success with a mixture of 75% KNO3 and 25% AP, it is definitely as loud/powerful as straight AP if not more so. I only used it for salutes however, and I have not tested it's ability to initiate other HEs.

[knowledgehungry]

I searched for sodium nitrate detonation but didnt find anything, i didnt think to look in the KNO3 nitromathane thread, my apologies. It would appear that it is indeed possible to detonate NaNO3. I am going to do some more tests with MEKP and NaNO3 im going to try 25% MEKP and 75% SN. I'll let you know the results.

[blindreeper]

If KNO3 can be detonated why have I been told numerous times that PNFO doesn't work? Surely it could. I have unlimited KNO3 supply and access to NM but NM would be to expensive to use constantly - only for boosters. My question; just an example. If I had 1kg of PNFO with 6% fuel (deisel, petrol, methanol ect ect,) and a 100g PNNM booster with a 5g HMTD cap contained in a 4 inc dia PVC pipe, would it detonate? I am being specific as Kingspaz I think went off at some one for giving insufficient details.

Does anyone have an Idea of the critical diamteter of PNNM or PNFO?

Damn I am pissed now that I know MEKP can be used to detonate PN because I just tipped out 100ml of the anhydrous form (was in a dessicator for a week) onto an ants nest because I had it under the house for 7 months and we were having some lightning storms.
Looks like it's time to make some more MEKP!

Also does any one know how many acres/hectares would it be safe to detonate 1kg of AN/PN type explosive in relation to sound?

I only have about 500m from the centre of my yard to the nearest house so if I burry it would it be alright? I was thinking to start off with 50g of APPN then 100g then 100g of PNNM.

Sorry for all the newbie questions

[ALENGOSVIG1]

I belive if you bury it 1m you should be ok for sound.

Moved to H.E.

[blindreeper]

Only 1m? Well I can't argue with experience it seems do-able. 5g of HMTD in a 10cm paper tube electrically ignighted under 40cm of compost makes a nice thud which I really like. But then again dirt is more desnse then compost so it makes sense to only have 1m. And I am not too game so start off with 1kg of HE so I'll get some cold packs to try a 250g ANNM which will still be impressive.

When I get my job in 2 weeks i'll have money to get a coffee grinder and some NM. Time for experiments and pics prolly videos if I can borrow a camera

[yt2095]

this may seem an ODD question, but does valency (octet rule) have anything to do with "detonatability"(if there is such a word)?

I only ask as I had an ODD dream last night (yes a REAL dream complete with snoring) that valency or at least the way I had worked it out played a part?
I`m sure it`s to with the bonds that are made, that dictate wether a chem is potentialy explosive or not, but now i can`t shake the idea that valency plays a part too!

oh, and it was THIS thread that featured in my dream! as I couldn`t see how KNO3 or NaNO3 could possibly "detonate" any more than 70/30 flash.

Any Ideas?

[knowledgehungry]

I don't think valency has anything to do with it. I am not sure how to explain why KNO3 can be detonated but flash cant(i think it is possible to detonate flash, just hard to do not sure though), but it makes sense to me, sorry for the lack of usefulness.

[Mr Cool]

I think AN is detonatable because the NH4(+) nitrogen gets oxidised from the oxidation state of -4 to 0 in N=N, and this is exothermic. Also, all the products are gaseous, which helps for some reason that I can't remember.
Neither of these things are true for KNO3/NaNO3, which don't have a reduced nitrogen or all-gaseous components, so they will not actually detonate (their decomposition is endothermic). They will just provide oxygen for the NM to use while it detonates. They may also sensitise it. But if you have too much of the nitrate, then it might consume energy from the explosion since they have endothermic decompositions, and this could potentially make it undetonatable.

PNFO might be detonatable, just like chlorate/hydrocarbon mixtures (cheddites) can be. But you would have to go at it with a really big booster, and the critical diameter will probably be quite wacky (more than the few inches of ANFO's).
Just compare PNNM to ANNM, and use this to judge the properties of PNFO based on those of ANFO.

[knowledgehungry]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Mr.Cool, so pure AN can detonate(theoritically) while the alkali nitrates cant. It's actually the fuel which is detonating?

[yt2095]

Thnx so far ;)

I`m assuming it was valency I was working out whilst asleep. yes i KNOW it sounds mad/mental/crazy but I DO dream (asleep) about chems all the time. Mr Cool, I agree totaly with your post (although I don`t usnderstand (+) ions yet (I know OF them but not too much ABOUT them)
here`s how I saw it:
take KClO3

K = 1
Cl= 7
O= 6 (x3) =18
------------------
26
---------------
26/8 (octet)
---------------
3 r2

whereas using the same for a PERchlorate gives 4 as the answer, Chlorates are unstable, PERchlorates are reasonably stable

Chlorates will detonate (Cheddite)
never heard of a PERchlorate (from an alkali metal) that was detonatable?

Is this worth persuing? or is it just random shit that seemed so real at the time?
and yes I know Ammonium Nitrate is a 4 also.

if I`ve "lost the plot" and finaly gone mad, blame this open bottle of acetone sitting here, IF it makes sense at all, I accept full credit :)