Tovex

[Sonny Jim]

Until today, I'd never heard of it. Someone I know online said it's basically what they put in cruise missiles. I was dubious of this, so searched a bit, and saw it has use in underground applications, with a Vdet of 4000-5000m/s.

It's made apparently of AN, KNO3, Al, and a plasticiser. Ring any bells?

BTW, I tried a search here but it's playing up for me. It says 'the admin has said you cant run more than one search every 30 secs' every time I try, so don't bite my head off if it's been discussed before.

[A-BOMB]

I made a topic about Tovex a few months ago, try searching for it. And Is the file that decribes it from the FTP? If it is, then it is wrong. I and another member have both tried this formula and it comes out as a slurry that does not harden at all. If you add up the percentages in the file it will come out as 90ish instead of 100%. If you want to experiment with the percentage and let us know if it works.

[Sonny Jim]

I would, but I can't get KNO3 at all. Over in the UK. I've looked everywhere, garden centres, supermarkets, hardware stores....

The only glimmer of hope I ever saw was chem suppliers, but they are such rip offs and I'm always dubious of their intention to send the goods.

The only way I can think of this being any good is if it detonates with a +ve O2 balance, therefore combusting Al fuel like NG does. This would explain teh Al, but I'm not sure.

Do you need KNO3 or NaNO3 you think, or could we perhaps get away with chlorates?

[A-BOMB]

I wouldn't try it chlorates,AN and Al all heating in a oven doesn't sound that good to me.

[Desmikes]

I haven't seen the recipie but Jim, how else can it detonate if not with excess oxygen? Just going by the components you mentioned - you have TWO oxidizers (AN and PN). I doubt that this comp can possibly go up to 5000m/s b/c it sounds like you are just mixing flash and AN (which also likes reducing al). The only advantage to regular AN + Al mixture is that addition of KNO3 might increase the density of your explosive.

[metafractal]

Sonny jim, you must be able to get some nitrate, even if not potassium right (otherwise good luck with such a hobby)? Then you can make Potassium Nitrate by precipitating any high solubility potassium salt and nitrate, eg KCl(aq) + NH4NO3(aq) -> KN03(s) + NH4Cl(aq). Follow this link for a guide to such a reaction: Making KNO3 (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Campus/5361/kno3/ammnit.html) . I cant get KNO3 either, but I make mine from water softner and cold packs :).
Hope that helps,
Metafractal

[Sonny Jim]

You have just made my day. Thanks! I'll get to that right away with the KNO3.

Now I can test this and tell you all if it's any good.

[DBSP]

I'm not shure this is what you are referring to but I think it is the Tovex file from the FTP. Just thought you might want to have a look at the comp.

Could it be that the last ~10% is to be the water added to dissolve the AN. If I'm not wrong the water isn't removed after is has hardened.

I've only got ammonium dichromate no K dichromate so I can't try it otherwise I would have done that. Unless I buy some ironsulphate of cource, allthough that would be expensive for what might be a one time attempt that may very well fail.

And what about the sensitivity of Tovex? As I see it it can't be to sensitive, at least it doesn't feel like that with all that water in the mixture, but who knows maby my common sense has tricked me.

Tovex

Ingredients

1. Ammonium Nitrate 55%
2. Powdered Aluminium 20% (blend of flaked and atomized).
3. Potassium or Sodium Nitrate 10%
4. Gelatine or Starch 2.5% (kitchen grade)
5. Potassium Dichromate 1% (thickening agent). You may substitute this with Cr,Fe,Sn, sulfates, nitrates or chlorides, i.e. kitchen grade borax.
6. Urea 0.5%, retardant, prevents swelling and gas generation in storage. Optional if material is not stored for long.
7. KH2PO4 L/NaOH (in 29/1 mol. ratio), also optional if not stored.
8. Distilled Water

Process:

1. Filter an adequate quantity of each solid material through a sieve.
2. If necessary crush the ammonium nitrate first.
3. Weigh the required quantity of each material.
4. Place the screened and weighed materials in separate containers and close tightly.
5. Place AN into mixing bowl.
6. Add boiling water and stir until all AN is dissolved.(AN solubility is 580 gm per 100 ml's water @ 80 c.
7. Blend the gelling powder and the potassium or sodium nitrate in a separate container.
8. Add the mix from step 7 to the hot AN solution.
9. Stir for 3 minutes.
10. Add aluminium powder.
11. Mix contents of bowl thoroughly.
12. Dissolve thickener/cross linking agent(potassium dichromate), in a little hot water and add to the bowl's contents.
13. Add mixed stabilizer and enhancer to the mix. Ingredients 6 & 7. Optional for storage.
14. Blend thoroughly for 5-10 minutes, or until mix is free of lumps.
15. Pour filler into the grenade body.
16. Insert a spacer into the molten filler for the detonator.
17. Place grenade with filler and spacer into a warm air dryer until filler coagulates into a uniform, tough gelatinous mass.
18. Remove spacer and install detonator at time of use.

[Sonny Jim]

Iron chloride can be made when you electrolyse an iron anode in NaCl solution. I did this loads when I used to do thermite often. There's our thickener.

With those instructions about making KNO3, from KCl and NH4NO3. I assume doing the same thing with NaCl would get NaNO3? Cos it's a damn site easier to get pure salt than KCl.

[DBSP]

Thanks for the Iron chloride tip. I'll start a cell up as soon as I'm done writing this.

It would of course work with NaCl but then you have a problem getting the NaNO3 out of the solution without the NH4Cl coming along with it. They are both very soluble. The KNO3 on the other hand has a much lower solubility than NH4Cl thats why KCl is preffered.

[Mr Cool]

I tried making a Tovex charge once, although it didn't work. Apparently it is supposed to form a tough, uniform gel. What I ended up with was a mass of wet AN crystals, that was a bit sticky because of the gelatine.
Better gelling agents are needed, I think...
And even if it could be made to work, I can't see it being more powerful or more sensitive than ANFO, and it is harder to make.

[Sonny Jim]

DBSP:

If this helps.....

The iron chloride will settle to the bottom of the container you do the electrolysis in. It will be a thick greenish gunge, so you can actually decant off a lot of excess liquid before filtering it.

When drying it, don't heat it up in a pan or under a flame to speed the process, as it then changes into iron oxides, and goes brownish red. Heating gently with over a radiator or by blow drying it works well.

I'm exploring an undiscussed option to get Al powder. I went and bought some metallic spray paint, and am chewing over a good way to extract the Al from the paint. My initial thought was adding solvent to the paint to thin it up, hopefully allowing the Al powder to sink to the bottom of the container it's in, then filtering. Has anyone done this before?

I'm somewhat confused about KCl. The URL here in this thread mentioned K2O. I've heard that is called 'sulphate of potash' in one of the pyrotechnics threads here, and I got some.

But why the hell is K2O called 'sulphate of potash'? And is it any good for the KNO3 process?

[DBSP]

Isn't it Fe(OH)2 that is formed by the electrolysis of Fe? The dissolved Fe reacts with the OH- formed in the reaction emediately forming the insoluble hydroxide. Reacting HCl with iron on the other hand will yield Fe(Cl)2.

I've electrolysed a piece of iron anyway, just have to get it filtered and it's ready, allthough I belive it is a hydroxide, could anyone who knows enlighten me?

I bought some gelatine erlier today as well.

[vulture]

An FeCl3 solution should be clear yellow. The problem is it will turn dark upon contact with moist air, so it can't be easily distinguished from ironhydroxides.

Ofcourse, FeCl3 is water soluble and the hydroxides are not.

[DBSP]

Then there we have it, thanks Vulture. The stuff I have is a green to dark green sludge at the bottom of the container under the water. It is definately not water soluble thus it is definately not FeCl3, case closed. Might try to make some FeCl3 tomorrow.

Still not anyone with any idea of the sensitivity?

[Sonny Jim]

My mistake then. Sorry for the wild goose chase DBSP.

[Zeitgeist]

FeCl3 is available from electronics suppliers, some types of PCB etchant.

K2O is not sulfate of potash, that's potassium sulfate, K2SO4

[metal dragon]

Just add iron nails into HCL leave them in there until they stop bubbling, this however may take months if making large quantities. Once this has stopped bubbling leave the solution to dry in the sun and what remains is Fe2Cl3. How ever one must take special precautions not to make Fe2O3 (forming because of the water in the HCl. But in my experience this no great problem. Hope this helps