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Tuatara
August 7th, 2003, 11:55 PM
Some years back I worked for a co that made mitlitary training equipment. While there I heard about an explosive system where the detonator was created in the main charge by a chemical reaction. The reactants were in the main charge, and on a plastic or metal stick that was poked into the main charge, the primary formed at the interface of the stick and the charge after about 30 minutes, and the end of the stick provided somewhre to tie your trip wire. The advantage of this system was that you could carry a relatively insensitve secondary, and this inert stick thingy, to the target, then effectively create the detonator on site, with lots of time to get away before the thing became dangerous.

Has anyone heard of this stuff? I can see how it could work, maybe by formation of some really unstable picrates or somesuch - possible because you'd never have to touch the detonator, or move it, or carry it.

Maybe someone has a better idea of how to do this.


Sorry if its a rather vague and rambly description, but thats all I recall, from a casual conversation with my boss at the time.

Nihilist
August 8th, 2003, 12:28 AM
Since it is formed on the spot, and you could set everything up before the detonator is created, you could use something as sensitive as NI3, which could be formed easily on the spot using the binary agents ammonia, and iodine crystals(which of course, by themselves are perfectly stable).

A-BOMB
August 8th, 2003, 02:18 AM
I heard of something like that, it was a two part detonator, like 2 part epoxies mix A+B and get boom. Part A was mixed into the secondary and part B was on a metal rod that was knotched on the outside like a file to keep the part B on, a wire was attached to the end of the rod. So when the two parts came in contact it made a very sencitive friction primary so whe the wire was pulled on it would detonate. I thougt I saw it on a EOD site but am not sure.

GibboNet
August 8th, 2003, 02:38 AM
It depends on how you use it, and what primaries you use. I personally wouldn't risk it.

If you place an already unstable primary in a tube to form, as soon as the crystals start to form they are going to be pressured in the tube, and it's unlikely they will not explode. I know you're looking for an explosion, but when / if it forms, you don't know what you've made. If it doiesn't react enough, you won't have enough to detonate your explosive.

On the other hand, if you react too much, or the reaction is too quick, it could detonate prematurely. If the charge doesn't go off, are you going to pull the really unstable detonator out of a block of explosive ? You're risking not just your hand with the det, but your life with the whole lot if it goes off when you touch it.

I think it's worse than pressing dets yourself, and we all know that's pretty risky. Still, it's your life. :rolleyes:

(Your explanation was fine however :) )

Nihilist
August 8th, 2003, 07:39 AM
I think I would go with the strategy of throwing rocks at it until it detonates, and if it doesn't then you know(sorta) that it's safe. You could also use a solution of aspirin+sulfuric, and add KNO3 as the other binary agent, to produce picric acid.

Efraim_barkbit
August 8th, 2003, 07:52 AM
If your close enough to throw a rock at the explosive, then you will be close enough that the explosive can throw the rock back!, and it can throw the rock hell of a lot harder than you!!

Better would be to shoot it with a rifle a couple of times from a safe distance, and if it didnīt detonate then, walk up to it and place a second charge(primed with a "normal" detonator) close to it.
At least that is what I should do.

Anthony
August 8th, 2003, 02:18 PM
It's a booby trap, why are you going to go back to it (if you've planned properly ;) )

I think it's a fair question from an academic point of view. Saying it'd be unsafe to go back too is kinda the point of it. Finding out how it works is what we want, afterall, dets are the most dangerous part of explosives to handle/carry, effectively eliminating them would be useful!

knowledgehungry
August 8th, 2003, 04:12 PM
Well I think no one likes the idea of using a booby trap that they have no clue if its going to work, so they would want to test it first, but that would be tricky as they were saying. I think the idea of Picric mixing with metal to form a picrate is the best, you could have a huge charge of Picric, then add a small amount of metal to the middle and you have it all ready to go.

Tuatara
August 8th, 2003, 06:19 PM
At least Anthony got the point of this thread. It is meant to be theoretical. I thought it was an intriguing solution to a common problem, and I want to know how it works, and I thought others might too. So exercise your chem knowledge and lets figure it out!

Sonny Jim
August 13th, 2003, 04:27 PM
This is a simple idea, but simple people come up with simple ideas...

Supposing movement of the device caused some, say, glycerine to fall upon a KMnO4 composition, that would ignite and set off a primary. You get the idea...

vulture
August 13th, 2003, 05:08 PM
Ba(ClO3)2 + (NH4)2SO4 ----> BaSO4 + 2NH4ClO3

I selected ammoniumsulfate to shift equilibrium to the right because BaSO4 is insoluble.
Only problem I see is drying the detonator, because solid state reactions won't work very well.
Neat thing is that NH4ClO3 can be explosive in concentrated solution and it WILL go off within a few hours of preparation. Well, that is if it's pure and spread out into a very thin layer. Otherwise it goes boom almost immediatly.

I don't know how the BaSO4 is going to affect sensitivity though.

scarletmanuka
August 14th, 2003, 07:45 AM
If you were using a AN slurry, you could add KMnO4 or a chlorate or Cr207 salt(maybe CrO3)to form in solution small amounts of NH4MnO4 or NH4ClO3 which would be very sensitive. Or maybe some Copper or CuO to produce TACN. And in addition to that, maybe an unstable compound that would be easily oxidised, to produce enough heat to Det theprimaries formed. I imagine that it would be pretty hard to get it failsafe though.