A Wild Idea for Tactical Insertions...

[MrSamosa]

This idea is so whack, that I dare not post it in "Tools, Techniques, and Plans" or some other Forum; so it will go in the Water Cooler. Still, I see it as being remotely possible, so I am interested in your input...

Many guerilla groups across the world have access to rockets and missiles, whether bought from other countries (China, Iran, Russia...), or manufactured on their own (such as the "Qassam" and "Banna" missiles by HAMAS). Furthermore, many of said guerilla groups have shown a willingness to perform suicide operations.

So I was thinking: you have suicidal people, and you have rockets. For them, breaching security is always a problem. So, why not tie a suicide commando guy to a rocket, and blast him to his target?? The goal would not be to HIT the target with the man attached, but rather have him break away at the rocket's apogee, and parachute down to the target. Sort of an Improvised Paratroop.

The big problem I see with it is major whip-lash, but maybe head-harness could be made. I can see it now, though: "Terrorist flies home-built rocket onto military base." :D

[Anthony]

If he's suicidal, why not have him fly the rocket into the target? Or Forget the rocket and use a light aircraft? :)

Edit: Sorry to lower the tone of the thread, but did anyone else see the thread title and read: "Wild...Improvised...Insertions"???

[knowledgehungry]

I wonder what google would show with a search for wild improvised insertions ;). But I dont see how whiplash would be to big of a problem, providing it didnt immoblize you, as you wont be concerned about discomfort when your blowing yourself up. However it does seem far fetched as you said.

[MrSamosa]

no no, the idea is not so much to blow yourself up! Since it's a tactical insertion, it would be to get the guy into a target area to perform a commando operation. This might include shooting sleeping soldiers, assassinations, sabotage operations, etc.

[zaibatsu]

Couldn't you just use some form of motorised glider? Or even the glider linked to the rocket?

[Chemical_burn]

Your only problem is that the g forces would eather render him unconsious(sp i think) or most likely kill him see as how a rocket large enough to carry a payload of this size would be very large and require a lot of thrust. Most likely the initial thrust from take off would crush every bone in his body seeing as the rocket would most likely have to accelerate to over 500MPH if not more in a mater of miliseconds in order to achieve lift off. Ohhh yeah and if by some merical(sp) he did survive lift off then all theblood ruching to his lower half of his body would render him unconsious.

[Arthis]

How do you want to guide the rockets with an attached man on them ?

The rocket: maybe because terrorist groups have no planes but rockets ?

The suicidal bomber: in that case of course a reasonable pilot/soldier wouldn't want to be a volunteer.

Another problem is that anyway paratroops are easy to kill if you attack a base or something like that. You would need to bomb the base before, and therefore rockets wouldn't be of any use as paratroopers could break in by the door/walls if the base is ground attacked (mortar bombings) or by plane (air bombing).

[Arkangel]

the rocket would most likely have to accelerate to over 500MPH if not more in a mater of miliseconds in order to achieve lift off

So how does that work then? I assumed if it achieved 1mph vertically then it would "achieve liftoff". It's a wacko idea, true, but there's no need to add more shit to the bonfire.

Basically, what I think Mr Samosa's talking about is getting an "operative" past checkpoints, fences and all the over stuff that gets in the way of insurgents - a bit like the old James Bond Jetpack.

There are a number of technical problems with something like this, and these CAN be fixed if you have the time, space and money to do it. But as a terrorist device, they would be of poor value compared to other means of attack. For every one of these you could probably get half a dozen land based people into action - many more even.

(re. motorised gliders, you could, but it would be shot down in no time by the idf. A mate of mine designed (and had tested) a pod slung under a tornado that carried a motorised hang-glider to be dropped to aircrew behind enemy lines)

[Kid Orgo]

The applications would be limited by a few things.

The rocket would have to be low-altitude to avoid radar if radar was an issue.

If used to breach a perimeter, a huge fucking rocket (Light, smoke, sound) would tend to attract attention.

I'm sure there's more.

I, in my COMPLETE inexperience in such matters would imagine that any situation requiring the rocket man concept would be completely covered by stealthy ultralight gliders, HALO drops, and the rest of the usual insertions.

[chemwarrior]

Your underestimating the use of a catapult... not only can they throw rocks... they can throw people!!

On a more serious note.. I dont imagine it is possible.. fighter pilots are trained and tested to be able to resist the G's that are put on their body while in flight... and they are HIGHLY trained.. training a raghead sufficently to be able to do someting like that would be pointless.. especially if they plan on getting killed. It would be more practical to launch the rocket.. let it crash into base/building/etc, then letting whoever get in durring the confusion.

[Cyclonite]

Its not really practable but possible, people are launched out of cannons and are subjected to very large amounts of G-force for a very brief amount of time. For speed and guidence I think something like a cruise missle but smaller, they glide to the target after they reach the speed they need. The rocket could be made to not subject to person to an incredible G force for more than can be tolerated reach a high alltitude and glide to target and drop the person off however they like, like HALO but with a rocket instead of a plane.

[MrSamosa]

Well, to limit the amount of G-forces, would lowering the launch angle help? Suppose the operator were to build a ramp from which to launch the device (a simple one, of course...one that could be broken up and stored in cars or something), so that the acceleration isn't quite as "instantaneous" as launching straight-up would be.

Hmm, a rocket glider... Or, what about those guys who have the big fans on their back, which blows air into a parachute, thus lifting them off the ground? That wouldn't kill the operator on take-off, and is also quite stealthy. Maybe give the parachute a dark color, and the guy might be able to sneak past security checkpoints at night? Also, the concept behind this seems rather simple.

[nbk2000]

Rockets large enough to carry a man any siginificant distance would also generate thousands of G's of acceleration force, more than enough to turn him into a sack of goo. :(

Jet's pull maybe 11 G's for a few seconds. Missiles do thousands of G's for many seconds.

There was some guy who, just in the last couple weeks, flew over the english channel in 14 minutes, at over 200mph, using nothing but some fiberglass glider strapped to his back, like Buzz Lightyear. :D

A large number of plastic garbage bags filled with ag. ammonia gas would provide lift for the suicide commando, who then disconnects and glides in. If he sees some issle streaking towards him, he can disconnects and do a "superman" dive to hopefully avoid the missile.

[Cyclonite]

All rockets big enough for a human used wont generate that amount of G-force, think space shuttle.

[chemwarrior]

The shuttle creates a good number of g's yes, but its not really all that high. Its about 9 g's. And its not take off that is the problem, its re-entry thats the bitch.


Edit- I forgot to mention that a single rocket will create a LOT more g's than the space shuttle. Think of size/ weight differences. Also, have you EVER seen a rocket being launched as opposed to the shuttle?? The rocket goes up extremely fast.. and the shuttle goes up extremely slow in comparison. The massive thrust created by the shuttle isnt really all that powerful because it has to lift several million tons, as opposed to the missle which only has to lift itself and its payload.

[Anthony]

several million tonnes might be a bit of an exageration :) Maybe Pounds...

I tried a google search for wild+improvised+insertions and amazingly, there were NO porn/sex related results in the first page (I only looked that far). There was something about Jewish Heritage and for some reason TOTSE came in at result No.2!

[chemwarrior]

Oops... my bad Anthony, lol.. I had meant to say pounds... I feel foolish... lol.

For the sake of my own curiosity, I just e-mailed one of their info centers and asked roughly how much it weighs when fully loaded and ready for take off.:D

[nbk2000]

Dude...Google. ;)

Gross Lift-off Weight (approx.), 2,041,200 kilograms (about 4.5 million pounds)

That was the very first listing, didn't even have to click the link to find it, in Google.

Search term:

"space shuttle" weight "lift off"

Highly developed search skills are important if you want to learn. :rolleyes:

And the astronauts (space monkeys :p) only experience about 3-4G's in the shuttle, not the 7-9 G's like the earlier ICBM-based rockets subjected their payload to.

[vulture]

If you're launching vertical, all you need is thrust that'll deliver an acceleration of more than 1g. Be it 1.001g, that's enough, your payload will come of the ground but slowly.

You get into trouble when you're making an angle greater or smaller than 90 degrees with the horizon. You'll need less vertical thrust, but since rockets don't generate much lift it will have to gain lift speed rather quickly or it'll nose dive into the ground.

That's why SAM rockets have such a high acceleration and ICBMs launched from submarines can fly straight up even considering their slow speed coming out of the water.

So if you're going to launch a rocket with a horizontal declination you'll either need massive acceleration or you'll have to put it up at sufficient altitude on a platform AND equip it with guidance fins because it will have to correct it's dive.

[cross]

Well if the G Force problem could be dealt with it would be an interesting idea, but instead of just one person on a rocket why not a whole platoon? Now that'd be blitzkrieg, the second war is declared 100 rockets are launched and an entire army is in the middle of the enemy's capital. No surprise attack would ever work again, the moment an area was in need of backup it lands. Maybe a better application would be for something like invading a coastline and using rockets to deliver troops onto the shore. Hmm, that's actually really stupid. Another thing about if this is really used a lot is that a single hacker could kill a whole army by messing up the missile guidance systems.

[Tuatara]

There seems to be some confusion over the difference between g's and thrust. Thrust is what the rocket motor produces, measured in Newtons (SI) or ft.lbs (or both if you're NASA :D ). G's are acceleration units in m/sec^2, 1 g being 9.8m/s^2 (screw the imperial units). The acceleration of a rocket is thrust/mass so you can taylor the rocket thrust to give whatever acceleration the pilot can withstand.

Missiles usually have high thrust/mass to achieve aerodynamic stability soon after launch, and also to have a shit show of overtaking whatever they were aimed at.

At any rate, I think a 90kg explosive (or toxic) payload is probably capable of more damage than a 90kg human payload. And its going to take a fairly big rocket to handle a load like that.

[nbk2000]

I found the website for the delta wing glider used by the guy who crossed the english channel.

http://www.freesky.de/SKYRAY.html

The one used in the crossing was larger than that shown on the site, but the principle is the same. Imagine if the Nazis had these...a whole army could have glided across the channel (and impossible to shot down) undetected by the primitive radars of the time. :D

[Anath]

Believe it or not, DARPA is funding research into this..

Exfiltration Rocket (ER) A system designed to quickly extract special operations forces (SOF) teams from the mission area. This system would be brought in during the SOF insertion and assembled at the exfiltration launch site. After mission completion, the SOF team members load themselves and any other items, such as a high value asset (HVA) or weapon of mass destruction (WMD), into the ER and then take off. The payload and passengers are recovered via an air-retrievable payload system or through a "soft" landing in a friendly area.

see Exfiltration Rocket (http://www.au.af.mil/au/2025/volume4/chap03/b2_6.htm)