Australian 7:30 report (abc TV)

[Pyrophoric]

Last night (25 August), a national current affairs program, The 7:30 Report ran a story here in Australia about four young documentary makers in Tasmania and how they easily constructed and detonated a home-made bomb. Clearly they knew very little about what they were doing - they claimed that "The Internet taught me everything I needed to know in 15 minutes." In addition their "bomb" (a 50Kg bag of ammonium nitrate, possibly ANFO) was professionally detonated. The claimed intention of the kids was to highlight the need for more stringent controls on ammonium nitrate sale.
After hearing this story I thought the media was going to jump on this one, stirring up the same fear that was caused after the "cruise missile" (really a modified, remote controlled plane, with an explosive payload!) incident in New Zealand. Certainly on talk-back radio this morning there was much talk of the story, expression of fear, and the need for the community to "be alert". Thankfully it seems that due to pressure from the authorities and government that the media has since dropped the story. However i'm now afraid to set off anything that produces more that a "crack" in the neighbourhood, and even worse, that my supply of ammonium nitrate and various other chemicals will dry-up.

You can find a transcript of the storyhere (http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2003/s931803.htm)

[Blackhawk]

That story really screws me, I mean it is clearly obvious to all but the most kewlish that sythesising HE's of household stuff is easy, and by the sounds of them they spent their 15mins on totse with all their other 12year old rebel friends. Licensing AN, seriously who is gonna make farmer Joe get a blasting permit to fertalise his crops? and if you could get some special 'growers permit' for AN what's to stop terrorist making their 'bombs' at a farm? And the way they act all smart and dangerous "it's just easy makin b0/\/\Bz" no shit it is easy to buy a bag of AN, tip a bucket of kero in it and get a certified demolitions expert to det it for you, "so the detonation was done in a safe manner" my arse, it was because they were too stupid to do it themselves.

[metal dragon]

Yesterday on the 7:30 report (after abc news) they reported that 4 Tasmanian men produced a 50-kilo Ammonium nitrate “bomb”. They didn’t go into detail about the explosive except they said that it contained commonly available AN. They showed pics of construction in which they most probably mixed up ANFO. They made a detonator out of “house hold chemicals” (the words K3WLS love) in which probably was AP. They detonated it in the bush. The charge was placed in a car to which was blown to pieces.

All I have to say is fucking show offs. They are trying to big note there selves “look what I can do” bloody pathetic. I do support people putting pics and videos of there experiments but they are not intended to big note one’s self. They were trying to “enlighten” the public but what they succeeded in doing was provoking fear. People now know the easy in which an explosive could be produced so any sound of toy cap or sparkler flair would be called terrorism. “Be alert but not alarmed” this is there prize modo any testing of energetic material would be so feared you would have the anti terrorism helicopters at your door in minutes. A firecracker or even burning some bp would be an act of terrorism.

The real great thing is they learnt everything they needed to know in 15 minutes of searching the net. Any body planing terrorism or even the old beloved K3Wl will know to search the net. People now know that explosives are simple, easy, takes no previous knowledge, the net is the perfect place to look and the power it has. I think they have given more away then planned. I think this will make copy cat bombings.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

[GibboNet]

Suddenly I feel very proud to be Tasmanian :D

I didn't catch the report, I'm very dissapointed. I wonder how I will be able to get a copy. I might write to the ABC. I bet all Tasmanian dealerships of AN and similar fertilisers are going to be watching things a lot more closely now. I'm glad I haven't bought any recently, I bet they are tracing such purchases as we speak.

I want to find out more... I wonder if there's a local club I've been missing out on ? :p

It's going to make my life hell. Everyone who knows me knows of my interest, and everyone's going to be looking at me. :eek:

EDIT:

Official News Transcript (http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2003/s931803.htm)
My Fears Confirmed (http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia/tas/mettas-26aug2003-5.htm) :( :mad:

I just walked in and said, "We need five kilos of ammonium nitrate."

And he said, "Oh, sorry, we can only sell that in a 50-kilo bag."

So we said, "That'll be fine."

And he said, "Take your car round the back and we'll load it up."

And he joked with us on the way out, "I hope you're not going to build a bomb with that, fellas."


:rolleyes:

[Anthony]

There's a similar thread to this one in the Water Cooler, so I'm merging it with that one.

[shady mutha]

Saw it and was not happy. Lets hope nothing to bad happens.Something I found interesting was the journalist claimed that in the U.K AN is detonation proof? Know anything about it. Hopfully AN is just to important for agrigculture to simply pull off the market. Im over AN anyway but still .

[THErAPIST]

I don't know about the other places in the world, but AN is too important to get rid of here.

I live in the golf course capitol of the world. Ammonium nitrate is the fertilizer that's used to give golf courses that nice rich green color, so there's no way in hell that it would come off of the shelves here. Besides that, people around here are stupid when it comes to explosives anyway, most of the people who work at agricultural stores here and such are teens who know little more than how to get wasted on weekends or just hang out at the beach during the week

[vulture]

Something I found interesting was the journalist claimed that in the U.K AN is detonation proof?

Yeah, if you don't dissolve the prills....:rolleyes:

You didn't honestly believe a journalist would have ever heard of an extraction, did you?
That's not household anymore dude, that takes some ch3m1ztry sk1llz 'n sh1t d00d!

[Flake2m]

I saw the 7:30 report on that and it made my blood boil watching Kerry O'brien carry on about why we need to try to ban OTC AN, which as we know is impossible.

We all know that trying to set off any AN based device, especially if it is a large one can be like trying to get blood out of a stone ;) , given that it is very hydroscopic, very insensitive and very stable compound. The 7:30 report tried to make out that to set off AN all you need to do was add petrol and a fuse then light the fuse and run.

I saw the follow up report on the this 133+ 3)(p0$1|\/3 b0mb and atleast the guy they interviewed had half a clue on terrorism and the fact that if you ban the sale of AN then might aswell ban everything else that is remotely dangerous.

Kerry O'Brien (the reporter on 7:30 report) is known to be left wing, atleast therer was someone prepared to put him in his place this time round.

[Anthony]

Originally posted by shady mutha
Something I found interesting was the journalist claimed that in the U.K AN is detonation proof?

Yeah... it's not :)

[simply RED]

it is no way to ban everything that can be dangerous...
for example if you don't have AN, you will make urea nitrate

[green beret]

Did anyone tape this? I would be very intersted to see this. I am going to try and get a copy from the ABC if no-one taped it.

[0EZ0]

I find it rather appalling that reports like this even make it onto television. Being deliberately vague when detailing how such things can be done leaves a huge margin for false information. I suspect the 'young Tasmanians' were only out to make a name for themselves, and were not aware of the issues involved with banning the sale of AN. It figures that these boys were Tasmanian:rolleyes:. No offence to our contributing members from Tasmania of course.

They made a documentary of the whole process, signed up a professional to actually detonate the bomb safely, and the outcome of their project scared them.
Ha! No wonder it was so easy to detonate the charge, they hired a shotfirer to detonate a bag of fuel soaked AN with most likely, a purchased (and already highly regulated) detonater and booster system. If they actually allowed the 'improvised detonator' to be used, the shotfirer would not only be in breach of protocol and could have been subject to hefty fines, suspension of lisence or even jail time, but also have to total embarrasment of the charge not even detonating due to the stubborness of untreated AN compositions:D.

I would like to bet that if one of those boys was of arab, palestinian or indonesian dissent that the farmer Joe who sold them the AN would have jumped on the phone, pulled out his shotgun and held them at gunpoint until the police arrived:D. Such is the paranoia of simple minded folk due to the recent terrorist events.

Honestly I would be more afraid of being run down by a car in the street than being a victim of terrorism. The sad fact is that there are people out there who profit from a terrified population, and profit well. The same day that Bali became the victim of a terrorist attack, hundereds of new propositions related to the restriction of certain materials, information and activities were put forward and PASSED because the goverment found 'just :rolleyes: cause' to approve them. I have no doubt that the polititions were sitting on the edge of their seats waiting for such an opportunity to arrise. That is what annoys me the most. Complete disregard for the population's civil liberties. Terrorism has just become the accepted excuse to fatten defence budgets, restrict our rights even further and even to invade other countries (think iraq, afghanastan etc.). After all, a regulated population is easier to control than a 'free' one.

We will always have those people who are 'oh so patriotic' and initiate the banning of materials that have even a hint of being used unlawfully or dangerously, as long as the absence of the material does not inconvenience them in obvious ways;). If only they knew that the fruit and vegetable industry would do to them for attempting to erradicate the use of ammonium nitrate. I would bet that if they succeeded in getting rid of it, we would see them complaining about the price of fruit and vegetables or how their instant lawn was not as green as in the catalogue:D!

The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me.

[Flake2m]

Well you know there's an ol' Tasmanian motto: Three heads are better then one ;) .

The "documentry" failed to take into consideration that AN based detonations do occur regularly and that they are for completelt legitimate reasons. As we all know AN is a commonly used in mining explosive compositions and that shot firers are often employed by mining companies.

So it is easily understandable why they didn't have a problem setting off a 50kg bag of diesel soaked AN using a commercially available blasting cap and booster charge. The shot firer would have set of charges like this all the time. These would often be 20-30 times larger then the one shown and involve maybe 100 seperate charges often set off at the same time or milli seconds apart.

For goodness sake ABC. Give the public some REAL FACTS, not some half assed attempt at government propaganda. Someone should write a paper on how poor and lacking this "documentry" was.

[shady mutha]

Well said! I taped it and on the topic and the detonater it appered to me to be a small homemade device, I am sure the tape was edited in relation to the whats how they detonated it just so the could get the story to air. As for the blast I was amazed how close they were to it! Now that was was funny.

[nbk2000]

Typical media-attention-whoring by do-gooders. :rolleyes: Real facts have nothing to do with todays journalism standards.

It's not news if it doesn't blow up, so that's why they had a pro set it off, because if the kids couldn't get it to explode after a dozen attempts "using all the instructions they learned in 15 minutes on the internet, using household chemicals", then what would that say about the quality of information to be found on the subject on the internet and how "easy" it is to make a bomb? ;)

It'd be interesting to know what site these "kids" used as their information source. In fact, I bet these weren't even "kids", but rather actors for an alphabet agency as part of a disinformation campaign in preparation for some more legistlation that's waiting in the wings.

See, you use child actors to stage an "event" that is conveniently covered by a friendly journalist as being "news", and the explosion is staged to ensure success, thus promoting fear among the sheeple, so they'll be ready tos upport yet another ass-reaming of their freedom. :mad:

Also, what the fuck were kids doing making a 50 pound bomb? :confused: It's interesting that they picked one of the most stable and hard to explode things possible as their project. It's extremely difficult to explode accidently, yet powerful enough to do damage, and uses that "readily available as fertilizer" ammonium nitrate.

Would not a few grams have demonstrated the point? Yes. Would it have been as dramatic as vaporizing a car (bomb) with 20+ kilos...NO! And that's why it was done. Not to prove a point, but to stage a dramatic event.

If I was going to stage a demonstration of something "dramatic" for the media, I'd go with something a little more "dramatic" than a bomb. How about a nice "Weapon of Mass Destruction"? Mustard gas is old hat now, but easy to do. Tabun would be within reach now, thanks to the patent information by Saravok, and how would THAT sit with the government?


NEWS AT 7:30

Tonight, a frightening look into the shadowy world of a global internet terrorrist information network know as "Patent".

Kerry O'brien discovers just how easy it is to learn how to make Weapons of Mass Destruction using only the information stored in internet-based government patent repositories.

Weapons of Mass Destruction, such as mustard gas, tabun, sarin, VX, phosgene, hydrogen cyanide, ricin, plus the ways and means of using them as weapons can all be found in detail on these government operated terrorist training networks.

The United States, Britian, and European Union are the largest perveyours of death porn, but other nations are also peddlers of deadly information.

With such information at their disposal, anyone, possibly even your neighbor, could become a terrorist, and nothing but their own good will and self-restraint could stop them! :eek:

Can you trust your neighbors to know this kind of lethal information and not be twisted into amoral baby-killing terr's having having been exposed to such inherently evil knowledge?!

Watch the 7:30 News show tonight and find out what happened to one person who was exposed to such knowledge, and the terrible effects it had upon his mind!

Kerry O'brien:

Now that you know how to make deadly nerve agents from common household chemicals, what do you want to do?

Anonymous Voice:
(Speaks haltingly as if reading from a script)

Rape...pillage...kill...and eat...dead babies?

Kerry O'brien:

Oh my God! It's destroyed his mind and turned him into a raving lunatic! :eek:


:D

Welcome to the new world of journalism, where the only news fit to print is that which you make up yourself. :p

[Nihilist]

NBK, don't forget the fact that AN can be detonated with nothing more than a homemade fuse of twine and wd-40. Oh yeah, and about that broccolli we've all been eating, it's actually poisonous if you inject it into your eyes, and can be used as a WMD, so watch out for anyone trying to sell you this homemade terrorist device. Also watch out for people that eat carrots, terrorists have been known to eat carrots, and/or breath oxygen. We urge the citizens to be wary of these signs of a possible terrorist and report them immdediately to the local authorities.

[Tuatara]

Its all so stupid. Perhaps one of us should be brave enough to show the media what happens if you park a full 9kg LPG bottle on a bag of burning charcoal, all valves sealed with superglue. Who is going to call for a ban on gas BBQs?:D

[xyz]

50 Kilos of ANFO just to destroy a car?!?

It must have been either poorly made or an incomplete detonation because a car could be totally smashed with 1 kilo and obliterated with 5 or 10 kilos.

I have seen 350g of ANFO create a huge explosion that hurled a 5Kg chunk of wood at least 60m (the charge was very highly confined though:)).

But seriously, all this media attention is just going to make your average 12 year old little Jimmy look up bullshit sites like TOTSE, blow his fingers/toes/nose off, and then more laws will be passed to restrict those "naughty, dangerous chemicals" :rolleyes:.

This reminds me of what someone here (I forget who) said about how people will probably need a toilet paper license in 50 years time .

[0EZ0]

Just when I thought things were settling down...

The Sunday Mail (http://www.thesundaymail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,7186093%255E2765,00.html)

Honestly, just what is next?! It would be quite amusing to see what is actually on that list. If only they knew the scope of it :rolleyes:.

Comments?

[xyz]

It really is true that Australia is steadily becoming fascist through democracy...

I wonder if they have figured out yet that raghead terrorists may simply kill the shopkeeper to get their AN? If they do it quietly, hide the body and set the AN bomb off the next day, this isn't going to stop them.

[blindreeper]

I saw that in the Sunday Mail. I think they will only target things such as fertilizer and stuff not anything like coldpaks - hopefully!

[metafractal]

All I can say is that TheForum Island is looking more and more tempting...

[T_Pyro]

Creative (Inventive even, maybe?) journalism it may be, but it's a fact that ammonium nitrate is far too easily available to the wrong kind of people. No, I'm not talking about kewls, but true terrorists. In the past six months, there have been more than five terrorist attacks on the mass transit systems here (buses & trains), all of which have used some ammount of ammonium nitrate. These terrorists seem to know exactly what they're doing- the last two bombings were synchronised to go off within +-5 minutes of each other, at entirely different locations in the same city. To make matters worse, the law enforcement agencies seem to have absolutely no knowledge about explosives. Quote from a report on the last bombings:

"Traces of sulfur were found at the bom sites, which prove that high explosives (ammonium nitrate) were used in these blasts"

Since when did sulfur traces neccesarily imply high explosives, far less ammonium nitrate? :rolleyes: The fact is, ammonium nitrate is, in fact readily available, but it is very unlikely that anybody would be able to gain enough know-how to make, or detonte a real bomb using ammonium nitrate "using all the instructions they learned in 15 minutes on the internet". But then again, terrorists don't become terrorists after "15 minutes on the internet".

[metafractal]

Maybe so, but arent you forgeting what this site is really about?
Trying to stop people from getting the materials is just a step away from trying to restrict knowledge of making explosives. Both of these methods are ineffective, they are quick fixes that create more harm than good. Why dont governments ask, "Why are the terrorists blowing the shit through us in the first place?", and if its for no good reason then take serious action against the terrorists themselves.
I am no leftist, but this brings to mind a scene from Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine". In it, he was demonstrating why America has so many more murders per head than Canada. Until this point, the audience had been persuaded to think that it was because America had 'more guns' than Canada. But, he then went on to show that the average Canadian family has far more guns than the American one. The point I'm trying to make is, though I never thought I'd be the motto of the NRA, "Guns dont kill people, people kill people".
If you ban ammonium nitrate, soon enough people with knowledge will find plenty of other things to hurt people with. If you start to go along this path, soon you will have to present photo ID and fill out a 10-page questionnaire in order to by corn flour.
Treat the problem, not the symptoms.
Enough rant for now. Metafractal.

[0EZ0]

It's not India or Indonesia that we are talking about here. It's mainland Aus. Although Aus likes to think that they own the region :rolleyes:.

I understand that most bombings carried out in your country are mainly composed of NH4NO3. But if you read the reports you will soon see that the bombers use sticks of Gelignite and commercial detonators to detonate those charges. Now which would make more sense? Regulating the use and sale of detonators and Gelignite or NH4NO3?

The problem is that the use of commercial grade explosives is not regulated enough in your area. Miners are buying supplies legitimately for their quarries and end up not using all of their charges, gelignite sticks, dets etc. Where do those surplus supplies end up? You guessed it, the black market. With over 350 commercial outlets that sell explosives supplies In india, and quite a modest mining industry, the lax of proper regulatory procedures benefits your extremist and terrorist groups. Also add the instability of the current political situation (Kashmir for a big example) I guess it is a recipe for disaster.

What is more to blame? Bomb materials or the people that use them for malicious intent? Deal with the people, not the supplies. I think you will find that any well funded terrorist is going to use premade explosives and detonator systems anyway. Even completely banning OTC materials is deffinitely not going to stop them.

So what is the real point in trying to ban all the OTC components? Thats what really worries me, just what is the REAL reason behind the crackdown on these things in Aus? I mean when was the last time we were attacked on home soil huh? Suspicion that it will eventually happen is not really enough. If they won't reveal the evidence that we are going to be attacked, then how can people beleive that it is 'just cause'? I honestly find it hard to beleive that all this is because they are trying to stop terrorist attacks on home soil.

Yes I do agreee with you that law enforcement at the moment really has put little effort into undertanding explosives. Just look at bali, the first thing they announced was that the bomb was composed of more than 50kg of Ammonium Nitrate. Yet people were walking around with half charred bodies and no hair :rolleyes:. The temperature of detonation with most/all NH4NO3 based explosives not containing a metal powder is comparatively low, certainly on the bottom of the list concerning temperature of explosion. Also it is certainly not enough at all to charr flesh unless you are in a very close (few meters at most) proximity to the epicenter of the blast. As if you are going to be worrying about that anyway as you would be blasted into a fine mist. Also another factor is that most detonations are so quick that local overheating of nearby materials to the point of decomposition (burning) does not happen because the heat produced is not sustained for long a enough time period to do any further damage. Chlorate/Perchlorate flash mixtures on the other hand:(...

[T_Pyro]

Metafractal, you're just reinforcing the point that I'm trying to make: I'm not saying that the supply of ammonium nitrate should be stopped. Such a move would be futile, indeed impossible. Anyone who is resourceful enough to be able to get hold of the requisite detonation caps, electronic timers etc. would obviously have easy access to conc. HNO3 and liq. NH3.

As for "trying to restrict knowledge of making explosives", I think the media is way ahead of us. Instead of blatantly putting the wraps on explosives, they're doing something much more feindish: spreading misinformation about explosives and the like, so that half the 49.5% of the population get paranoid about the situation and start talking about stupid moves like "banning ammonium nitrate". :mad: As for the other major 49.5%, they're converted into idiotic kewls who revel in the misconception that they can "blow shit up" as and when the like. :rolleyes: The remaining 1%? Well, we're here! ;)

[0EZ0]

Sorry, you must have gotten in just before me metafractal :p. My post basically was the same as your own.

[Flake2m]

Apparently the Bali bombing used a chlorate composition not an ammonium nitrate composition and that would explain the burns that the victims received...

I think it is innevitable that Australia will suffer from a major terrorist attck, it might not be today, it might not be tomorrow, but when some A$$h0|3s do manage to detonate a bomb in busy place laws will change and Australia will change. People thought differently after the Bali bombing because most of us never thought that such a event would happen so close to home.

People can think irrationally during during times of great distress, September 11 was one such time, October 12 was another. When people think irrationally we can end up with total anarchy and people that are normally very logical thinkers can suddenly lose the plot altogether. Some people that might consider themselves to be ordinary end up doing extrodinary things and may be regarded as heroes. It is during times such as major terrorist attack we have to rely on the leaders for guidance in the hope that events like September 11 and October 12 don't create any more chaos in the future.

We can double or triple security at airports, we can make people present photo ID when buying fertiliser and we could even ban gun use, but that wont stop terrorism and crime. The only way to stop acts of terrorism in the first place is to stop the idiots from getting the idea in the first place. To do that would be a violation or rights and big brother esque.
However we can do this another way, educate the public on proper values; manners, knowledge, respect for your elders and tolerance. We can lower the poverty line as this would stop desperate people doing desperate things. Is it possible to do this? The answer is yes, but this is a long term strategy not a short term one and it still wont reduce terrorism completely.
A few basic values can do alot in the fight against terrorism.

[xyz]

I beleive that is where the governments of the world are wrong, you can't fight terrorism, and you will only create more if you try to fight it. The only way to stop terrorism is for people to tolerate each other, and that sure as hell isn't going to happen any time soon, the mere fact that terrorism exists makes people tolerate each other less.

[Anthony]

"Is it possible to do this? The answer is yes, but this is a long term strategy"

And so it won't be implemented, as the PM who starts it will be out of office by the time the benefits start appearing. They won't do something that won't further their own careers.

[nbk2000]

That's exactly why enviromental crap is doomed to failure.

Any politican who tries to implement it (meaning spending money for it) won't be around for when the payoff comes back, so they have no motivation to do so, thus it doesn't happen.

Also, the eco-freaks need to learn to use technology to their advantage, not wish for some polly-anna neo-luddite society where everyone wears hemp cloths, bikes to work, and works in a mud hut. :rolleyes:

Rather than trying to save the tigers from extinction by saving their habitat, which isn't going to happen because the land is needed to feed the ever expanding hordes of muds in asia, they should use gen-tech to make them small and docile enough to be pets. :)

Who wouldn't want a tame lion, tiger, or grizzly bear (all the size of a labrador retriever or smaller) as a pet?

This way, the species is preserved for possible future re-introduction, their numbers multiply, and they exist somewhere other than a zoo.

Ugly and/or useless species get to die. :p

Really, is there any point in saving the manatee? The things are cows of the rivers, stupid as all hell, incapable of adapting to any other enviroment, and generally just plain useless. Unless they become mini'd into something small enough to keep in a pond like koi, they're doomed.

[xyz]

Some people do keep lions or tigers as pets, there is the drawback though that if they ever come into contact with human blood then they have to be destroyed (It is strongly suspected that once a lion/tiger has tasted human blood, it will attack humans).

[nbk2000]

Yes, some people do, but there's a world of difference between a 500 pound lion big enough to fit your head in its mouth, and a dwarfed version small enough to carry in your arms.

500 pound lions are considered very dangerous (rightly so) and scare the shit out the neighbors, meaning expensive fencing/permits/etc to keep one, if at all. If it was no bigger than a dog, and cute as hell, then you'd likely have no hassles keeping one, especially since you'd be "doing your part to save an endangered species".

Either the eco-freaks back you up for keeping the lions gene pool alive, or they become hipocrites and admit that they don't care about the survival of the lion species by making you get rid of it.

There's a dwarfed version of cat that gets no larger than a kitten at its largest size. The same techniques applied to lions/tigers/cheetahs/bears/etc would make them palitible enough (read "cute enough") to keep as pets, thus ensuring the survival of the species.

[Lil_Guppy]

This is my first post so here goes :p

I simply think that story on the ABC is a load of crap. I know it is possible to do it, but come on. The article featured a 'qualified' shotfirer who "was surprised by the ease with which four amateurs managed to assemble such a device". Surely being qualified in the field, he would know just how simple such a device would be to throw together. So, what, now they are going to try and regulate the sale of ammonium nitrate fertiliser. What next, are they going to try and regulate knives and forks? Or how bout the readily available materials that can be obtained at places such a supermarkets which can be used to make a primitive biological device? I personally cant see how regulating things is going to prevent them being used in the wrong way. Guns are supposed to be regulated here (Australia) yet the only thing it has achieved is removing weapons from law abiding people and putting them in criminal hands. Instead of regulating and banning substances and objects, I personally thing that there should be more educatation in the subjects. A good cop knows how to catch a criminal, because he knows their methods and how they act. A pest control company knows how to kill pests, because they know how the pests act. So doesnt it stand to reason that the one of the few ways to help reduce the amount of terrorist activity is to educate, not scare, the public, or at least a selection of the public?

Anyways, I shal stop rambling now. I hope that in the future I can bring some good ideas to this forum.

[VladiO]

Well, one reason that AN will not get banned is that if that kind of proposition even arises as a thought at any level of government, every single (legit and not-so-legit) fertilizer-producing firm would put up a massive protest or something of the sort. Imagine Scott's, Hometurf, and all other big and small companies launching an appeal in saying the government is unreasonably depriving these companies of business. Not only would the government of the country have wasted money in having the bill passed, but an even greater amount in legal fees, possible settlements, compenastions, etc.

Similar to the government saying that through the use of available video games intended for entertainment purposes children or terrorists can learn to fly planes, shoot guns, etc., they would be saying that through the use of available materials intended for agricultural or other legal purposes children or terrorists can manufacture weapons.

If a person was really out to kill someone/wreak serious havoc, banning all the chemicals in the world would not help, as they would just get them illegally.

One thing that I would agree with the government doing is saying something among the lines of "Publicly found information on explosives/flammables is often misrepresented and is extremely dangerous when not produced in the right environment with the right knowledge of what to do and how to do it". Using trained proffessionals on the other hand to make bombs out of "household" items while using not-so-household materials (fuses/detonators/boosters) is just good old government and news station propaganda to get ratings or make people believe in that is it is that easy to wreak so much havoc.

The 50kg bomb wasnt to impressive for its size either.

[blindreeper]

This is figures for the US, but I'm sure they would be rather similar to Australia -
The top 25 produced chems in the US in 1981 (it's old but it's out of my Chemistry Second edition by Raymond Chang and I can't be bothered searching for the current figures)

1. Sulfuric acid
2. Ammonia
3. Nitrogen
4. Lime (Calcium oxide)
5. Oxygen
6. Ethylene
7. Chlorine
8. Sodium Hydroxide
9. Phosphoric acid
10. Nitric acid
11. Ammonium nitrate
12. Soda ash
13. Urea
14. Propylene
15. Toluene
16. Benzene
17. Ethylene Dichloride
18. Methanol
19. Carbon Dioxide
20. Ethylbenzene
21. Vinyl chloride
22. Styrene
23. Xylene (all three isomers)
24. Terephthalic acid
25. Formaldehyde

Basicly there is no way they will completely ban AN. The top 11th chemical...
And KNO3 isn't even on there! There is massive production of that stuff. It's used fertilizers, stump removers and farmers use it if they don't want ammonium nitrate and it's NOT THERE!
These chems must be very mass produced...

I am not worried about it getting banned just it being harder to get!