Imprinting keys

[Flake2m]

I have an associate that wants a copy of a key. The problem is that the only way I am going to get hold of a key like this is to make a crude copy of one, since locks will be changed if its reported stolen and the blanks aren't avaliable. I Have figured that I can borrow the key to unlock a door and make an imprint of the key using something like clay, play dough or plasticine. I could then make a proper mould of this key using say plaster of paris and finally making the key by pouring a metal such as lead into the mould.

This methods seems to be sound to be me however, I would like some other members opinions and ideas on how I could improve this. Also would making the key be illegal in Australia?

[xyz]

There was a file on the FTP (Pity it's down at the moment) about using a 2 part wooden form with clay in it to make an imprint of the key, which was then taken home, filled with molten lead, and then copied on a regular key copying machine (the lead is too soft to function in the lock but it can still be copied from).

See if anyone has a copy that they could upload somewhere (I used to have a copy but I lost it along with several other files when the archive that they were in became corrupted).

[Rhadon]

The book you're talking about is called "CIA key casting manual" or something like that. It's a lot better than it sounds. The bad news is that it requires you to use a special alloy which contains bismuth (in order to get a low melting point). Other metals or alloys might also work, but it'll be harder to get good copies of your key.

As to what material may be best to make your imprint I'd say it's be clay, because you can use it directly for casting a key when it has hardened and is free from water (which is important because otherwise it will break on heating). When you use play dough, you will have to use at least two more steps which will lead to a significant loss in accuracy: Play dough is your negative imprint, so if you do now use plaster of paris you've got a positive imprint and you'll have to make yet another imprint of that to get the negative imprint which can then be used to cast your key. Additionally, plaster of paris might not be the best choice because it tends to fragment when strongly heated. That's at least my experience, but it might be due to the fact that my plaster was rather old.

[Rhadon]

If someone's interested in the key casting manual, I can send it to him now. Size is only about 200 kB, just post your email address in this thread. I'm not gonna send to all of you, though, I don't have the time and will to do that more than once. Therefore, the one who gets the book from me will have to send it to all other members who want to have it. This is mandatory!

Credit goes to Wantsomfet for scanning, unfortunately it looks like he has left us :(.

[IPN]

I can happily give the file a new home. :D
Meaning I can put it available for download.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/otto2000/KeyCasting.pdf

[Rhadon]

Sent! You can now edit your post and delete your email address, if you don't prepare for at least three offers of free viagra per day :D... those spammers are getting really nasty these days!

[Flake2m]

The blanks used for these locks are unavailable to the general public. To get hold of them I'd have to be a locksmith (which I am not) and order them in.

Maybe I could add a material To the molten lead as its solidifying to harden it. I have a large bag of metal filing which I (ironically enough) got from cleaning a key cutter. If I added some metal filings to the lead would it increase the hardness of the key?
All I need is a key that is hard enough to open a lock. I will be passing the key onto the assoicate for a fee. What SWIM does with it I dont care.

BTW: IIRC some Bismuth compounds are used in rat poison.

[IPN]

You could add copper or zinc powder to the molten lead to make it harder.

[Rhadon]

If I added some metal filings to the lead would it increase the hardness of the key?
I don't know if it was your intent to melt the metal filings, but if that's what you wanted to do you have to remember that this will greatly increase the melting point of the alloy and therefore make it even harder to get a good key because you need a very fluid mold and it may not solidify before it has flown down to the very bottom of your imprint.

If you wanted to use the filings the way they are, without melting them, I'm afraid they will either be too big so that your cast gets inaccurate, or if they are fine your key could lack in stability. It would also be hard to get a homogenous mix of mold and filings unless you use a large amount of filings, and if you use much the mold will most likely lack in fluidity.

Therefore I would just use a metal alloy without any "additives". Remember, the key cast you get will be quite sensitive and will get inaccurate when used too often. But if you're careful when casting the key you can make another cast with your imprint.

IIRC some Bismuth compounds are used in rat poison.
You don't need to get bismuth out of rat poison :). It's used to grow bismuth "crystals". Do a search on the web, I'm sure you'll find a place that sells it. It should cost roughly 40$ per kg.

I'm asking myself why you posted this in the water coolor! Your question does in no way have a primitive nature and would excellently fit into Tools, Techniques, and Plans.

[Chemical_burn]

Just a though but you could try meltnig down some bronze its easier to melt and would make very good keys. You may need to get ahold of a good high temp torch but I believe they sell Map/oxy gass torches at Homedepot of less than 50 bucks around 45 or so and they get plent hot.

If all else fails you could try some JB weld or some other kind of high strength epoxy as I think this would work.

[Rhadon]

Just a though but you could try meltnig down some bronze its easier to melt and would make very good keys.
Bronze would indeed make a very good key, but I don't agree with you that it is easy to melt. You said that it was "easier to melt". Easier than what? It has a melting point of more than at least 800 °C which is very high, at least too high for this purpose. Again, remember that the mold will come in contact with the comparably cold imprint and most likely harden before it has filled it out completely.

[kingspaz]

obviously this would depend on the sort of key, but would it not be far easier and cheaper to just take the shape of the key with a mould sort of thing then hack away at a piece of sheet metal until the correct shape has been obtained?

[nbk2000]

Key casting is a big pain in the ass. You need the key, the mold, low-melting point alloy, a key cutting machine to duplicate the key (what, you thought you could take a key casting to the locksmith and have HIM duplicate it? :rolleyes: ) and all the rest of the bullshit.

So, I thought about the utility of a steel key dongle that you could have on you at all times, that could be used to decode the key, and all you'd have to do is write down the info to allow you to have the key cut by code, which any locksmith can do. :)

The dongle (what a word! :p) would have the ability to decode most of the common high security lock keys, like dimple keys (DOM, Kaba, etc), Tubular keys (ACE, Van, etc), and both regular pin keys (like deadbolts) and more complex types like Medeco that use rotating pins.

I've attached a quick photoshop creation to illustrate. :)

Because it's a quick illustration, I left out the various other minutea that would be on the dongle, as well as the differing scales. I also left out the pin rotation decoding notches since I haven't figured that part out yet.

Also, there's been at least one other thread that went into detail about this before. You may wish to UTFSE! ;)

[Flake2m]

Well I managed to get an imprint of the key, using plasticine. The imprint isn't very good. If I can get a working copy of the key then it might be able to unlock the school's chemical labs *evil grin*.

This imprint was a test I really need to use modelling clay in a specially designed holder. I can get hold of Pb (fishing sinkers) and a gas stove should produce enough heat to melt it. As for the filings. The key might be harder if the mould was lined with filing before it was poured. The theory is; that some of the filings will alloy with the lead increasing the tensile strength.

I have the photos of the crude key imprint; howver they are quite large (around 800k each). I will post them later after I am reducing them in size, though this may reduce the quality.

[irish]

Hi Flake2m,
another place to get Bismuth other than what Rhadon mentioned is your local gunshop, they don't all have it and it is expensive but a ten KG bag may well last you a while :D .
I don't know what it is alloyed with (may be Tin for hardness) but it's mostly Bismuth and still has a very low melting point.
Also if you can get high Antimony Lead shot and mix it with your Lead it should improve tensile strength and hardness.
Obviously pure Antimony would be better, if you can get it add it about 6% w/w .

[Sparky]

It is considerably softer than lead but if you could use solder to cast stuff out of. This would certainly be convenient. A roll of solder isn't very expensive. There is even low melting point solder thought I'm guessing it would be even softer. Or you could use that metal sold in kits for kids so that they can cast little metal things. I don't know anything about this metal though. Just that I have seen advertisements for the toy which is used to melt the metal and cast it into different shapes.

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, but the lost wax process is a good proven process for creating duplicates of metal items.

I just wanted to mention also that at most hardware stores they just have the key blanks hanging out in the open, easy to reach if you wanted to take one.

Once a person has the imprint, couldn't they make a little jig to help file a piece of thickish sheet steel into the shape that needed? I imagine that would be easier than casting a key and a person maybe wouldn't have to worry about the wards if they make the sheet steel thin enough. This thinness would make it a little trickier to use than a normal key. One might have to use a torque wrench to actually turn the hull if the key was too thin.

BTW Rec.pyrotechnics has a lot of discussion about hardening lead for use as milling media. Antimony is commonly added to the lead to make it harder.

[Rhadon]

Flake2m:
I can get hold of Pb (fishing sinkers)... Lead is a very good material to start from in my opinion since its melting point is quite low. If you want to get it cheaper it might be worth a try to go to a garage and request lead there. It's used for balancing the weight in wheels or something like that IIRC, at least they should have some and will give it to you for a small fee if not for free.

As for the filings. The key might be harder if the mould was lined with filing before it was poured. I don't think it's a good idea but as always the experiment might be the best way to find out. I'm looking forward to your results.

Sparky:
Once a person has the imprint, couldn't they make a little jig to help file a piece of thickish sheet steel into the shape that needed? I don't know if I get you right, but using a sheet of metal is very very tricky because you'd have to get "curves" into it in order for it to fit into the lock if you know what I mean. It is also very hard to accurately file a key by hand, you actually only notice how hard it is when you try to do so.

[nbk2000]

2 part liquid epoxies would be excellent, I'd think. The CIA key manual was written back when they didn't have that sort of thing available like we do now. With a mold, you can mix up a bit of the epoxy mix, pour the water-like solution into the mold, and let it set.

The plastic "key" would be used to lift the pins in the lock to the shear line, but you'd want to use a tension wrench to turn the cylinder, since I doubt the plastic would be strong enough to survive much use otherwise.

Also, another thing I've thought about, was why there isn't some tool to decode the pins once you've picked a lock open. :confused:

You could remove the lock and dissassemble it to read the lock, but that'd be out of the question for a black bag job since it'd take too much time. But, if you had something that could be slipped into the keyway that'd read how deeply the pins sit in the plug, then you'd be able to reconstruct a key later on, since you'd know the pin heights, and wouldn't have to futz about with re-picking the lock everytime. :)

[tri-x]

One commonly available low melting alloy is called Cerrobend. It is used by gunsmiths
to cast chambers of firearms for accurate Dimensional measurements. It is also used
in oncology units to cast custom shields for radiation therapy. Cerrobend would be the alloy
of choice for reproducing a key. As cast it is much harder than lead. Melts in hot water.
I don't remember exactly, but I believe the melting point is 75-80 c. It also has a low
shrinkage rate on solidification. If you don't use a release agent, it's a bitch to get
out of a rifle chamber. Here is a link where it can be purchased. Cerrobend (http://www.dgrdesigns.co.uk/page20.html)

As for the key blank, It is probably a restricted version of a blank that is commonly available.
study it carfully, then look at blanks by the same manufacturer. You will most likely find
one, where the longitudinal grooves can be modified with a dremel tool and a thin
cutoff wheel to enter the keyway of the lock. Once the blank goes in, that's half the battle.
lock the modified blank together with the casting using locking pliers(visegrip). Then use
small round and triangle files to cut down the modified blank.

It would be a good idea to visit a sporting goods shop that sells reloading supplies and
purchase a plastic dial caliper. they are only about $20, and suprisingly accurate.
then you can measure the depth of each cut while you are casting the key.
compare the depths of the cuts in the new key with your measurements.
If you are careful there is a good chance it will work on the first try.

[bubbling_beaker]

Hi,
The metal that some little toy cars are made of (eg match box, hotwheels ect.) melted quite easily from my BUTANE torch (with flame temperature of 1300°c) within seconds and I found the metal has pretty reasonable hardness and isn’t very brittle so I think it Lead is much inferior in comparison to this but not all toy cars are made the same but a little bit of experimentation wouldn’t hurt so be creative and good luck! :)
-bubbling_beaker-

[blackninja]

why not try devcon ?
it hardens almost like metal, can be drilled,turned and machined.
its not cheap but its good stuff,i use it to build up ports in engines.get the titanium one !
you can also cure it to be even harder.
also you could use Worth port putty, that is another metal substitute you could use.
they are both pourable and you could always reinforce the new key with strips of wire etc.
blackninja.

p.s wanted to pm this info but couldnt find the icon so sorry for bumping up an old thread :)

++++++++

There's no PM allowed for anyone other than staff.

[Mick]

why is everyone using lead?

why not just use aluminium? its easy enough to melt.
its hard enough to be used as a key too..several of the keys on my key ring are made from Al.

[Sarevok]

Originally posted by Mick
why is everyone using lead?

why not just use aluminium? its easy enough to melt.
It is not. Aluminium melts at 660°C, Lead melts at 327,4°C.

I don't know how much of you already tried to cast a key, but I think it as being nearly impossible, having already tried it.

Flake2m, I'm sure this would be illegal to do in any country, even in Australia where white schollgirls are eventually raped by gangs of arabs (I still remember, one of the gang rapists said it is not a crime to fuck a white slut), but its not your problem, since SWIY (Someone Who Isn't You :)) is going to do it. Shit, its only a crime if the pigs get you...

[Chade]

Aluminium melts at 660°C, Lead melts at 327,4°C.

Hmmm, Zinc melts at 419.58 degrees C. That'd be my first choice, and it should be harder too.

How I'd try it:
I'd try to do the whole casting in a furnace, to increase the liquidity of the metal during pouring, to allow a longer time when the liquid metal is in the mould, and to avoid the shock of a molten metal hitting a cold mould. I'd also bake the mould before use, to make sure all the water's gone.

Before the clay mould hardens, make a drain hole from the tip of the key, with a cocktail stick for the metal to flow out. If the key is positioned so the tip (pointy bit) is pointing down, the drain channel should start at the tip, then curve up around the side of the key until ot exits the mould at some point above the top of the key. This means if you keep pouring in molten metal, it's not going to drain out the bottom, but will completely fill the mould and drain hole. When opened, the excess metal is filed or ground down.

Set up the raw metal in something that'll take the heat, but that has a hole in the base, so the metal can drain through when it melts. A flowerpot should do.
Use fire cement to fix the mould to the pot base, so that it seals the hole, and the only way the metal can leave the pot is by flowing through the mould in through the inlet hole at the face of the key (the bit you grip), and out through the drain hole. The mould should be affixed strongly enough that if you hold the flowerpot, the mould won't fall off.

Now the furnace. This can be as simple as a pit full of charcoal briquettes with a hairdryer blowing through a steel tube to really ramp up the heat to melt even tougher metals than the ones we're using. Charcoal and an air supply will melt iron, so the fact that you probably don't have a properly insulated furnace with a proper oxygen supply shouldn't (not that I've tried this) stop us melting Zinc. I think the real problem is the possiblilty the tube could melt. There's loads of stuff about on making your own furnace, both here and elsewhere, so I won't go into any detail about that.

You need to arrange the charcoal around the mould and pot in your pit. I'd support the pot with strong wire looped over some sort of metal cross beam a few feet above the fire itself. Now you start the fire going, let the metal melt, and occasionally twitch the wire to shake the mould, and remove any air bubbles. I can't see any reason you couldn't do this at higher temperatures with better metals in theory. Also, ths allows you to just leave the fire to die down. Slower cooling means better casting as the metal doesn't become brittle.

So, maybe it's a bit OTT, but as I'm building a heavier duty furnace anyway, that's how I'd try it. That's the idea. Needs refinement. Feel free to rip it to pieces.

[nbk2000]

What I want to know is why everyone is doing it the hard way by using clay? :confused:

Clay shrinks, expands, cracks, yada yada...:(

Use cuttlebones instead. :)

Cheap, no mess, useable as is as a mold for casting, and you can carry it around in your pocket no problem.

The desirable properties of the method are the ease and rapidity with which a cast can be produced: A mold can easily be made and filled in half an hour. The objects to be cast should not exceed the dimensions of 1/4 inch in thickness, 1-1/2 inches in width, and 3 inches in length (that's a key in a nutshell! :)). The patterns should be of metal, since they must be subjected to pressure. Draft angles can be very slight, or they may be ignored altogether.

Cuttlebones can be procured from a pet shop or drug store for a few cents. The soft, calcareous face is easily crushed and takes a very firm imprint of any object that is pressed into it. Difficulty of pressing thick patterns into the cuttlebone can be overcome by repeatedly pressing the pattern into the bone, the crushed material being brushed out of the imprint after each operation. The cuttlebone will stand quite high temperatures and is sufficiently porous to allow the air in the mold to escape.

Doesn't this sound so much more simplier than futzing about with clay? ;)

And, while lead melts easier, you can also melt aluminum quite readily using a propane torch and a small steel ladle to act as a crucible for melting it by directing the flame of the torch through a hole in the side of a small clay plant pot to act as a furnace. No need for charcoal.

Zinc would oxidize and vaporize into zinc oxide smoke if exposed to air at its melting point, so that's no good.

[Dunkelmann]

I successfully copied a key with epoxy Putty, it is a small cylinder of about 3cm diameter, the two components are seperated and you just cut off a piece and knead it between your fingers until uniformly coloured. it hardens in about 20 minutes, althoug i waited much longer.

I sprayed the key with PTFE anti-stick spray and pressed it halfway in the Putty. After the Putty hardened, i again sprayed the whole thing with PTFE and pressed another layer of Putty on top of the first part, key still in place. dont forget to make some small dents in the first half of the mold, they are needed to keep the second half in position. After the second putty hardened, the two halfs were easily seperated and i had a rock-hard, very precise negative of my key.
Then again, i sprayed both halfs with PTFE, placed a small ball of Epoxy Putty between them and pressed wery hard. You need to get the right ammount so the imprint ist filled out completely, but not too much, otherwise the two halfs will not touch each other.
I ended up with a key made out of Epoxy Putty which i could use to open the lock after a little bit of filing, although it will break very easily when turned, but just stick in, and turn the lock with a screwdriver. The key i copied was from a cheap padlock,just to try it out, but i think epoxy putty is very well suited to make impints of any kind.

[ErebusBat]

Dunkelmann – what you describe sounds like something I have recently found on the web. It is called Magic Sculp and is an epoxy putty that you kneed together. It that what you used or was it another product? Here is the link that I have for the Magic Sculp:

http://www.magicsculp.com/

Also you mentioned that the set product would not handle the pressure of actually turning the lock? Does anybody know what the shear pressure would be on an average key?

I had thought about reinforcing the molded key with something so it could be used to actually turn the lock, however everything I think of (e.g. small metal strips in the key) I think would weaken the rest of the mold seems how the key is so thin. Any ideas about making a copy of a key with epoxy?

[nbk2000]

Take some hair, run it through a coffee grinder till it's cut very short (<1mm), and mix some in with your putty. The hair will act like rebar does for concrete, adding resistance to cracking, making it (hopefully) strong enough to survive turning a lock at least a few times.

Speaking of key copying, I'm thinking about the utility of using digital cameras with macro functions (like the one I just bought :p) to photograph a key, and print out a paper copy of it.

The image of the key would be converted into an outline, duplicated by printing the image onto a sheet of paper many times, and stack/glue the outlines on top of each other, using two overlayed spots on the image to superimpose each sheet on top of the next in exact alingment.

This would also allow you to duplicate the keyway curves because you'd simply omit the parts in the image of the layered stack that correspond with the obstructions. :)

The thinner the paper, the better the "resolution" of your duplicate. Oh, and using a laser to cut the paper out to micron tolerences would be very helpful too. ;)

[Dunkelmann]

The putty that i used was from Pattex

http://www.pattex.de/pattex/produkte/spezialisten/power-knete.htm


sure there are many other brands, this stuff is really very useful!

I think that with a little practising you can reinforce the key (maybe with glass fibre), so that it can actually be used to turn the lock.

[Dunkelmann]

digital camera: Good idea!

You could use several high resolution images of a key or whetever to create a three dimensional model (there is software available for this purpose), and use a small lab-scale CNC Milling Machine to produce your desired key or whatever with high accuracy. Those machines are not that expensive, i used to work with one many years ago, manufacturing prototype printed circuits out of copper plated epoxy.

check www.isel.de

[grandyOse]

I used to use a (bronze?) thermite to "cadweld" copper wire to ground rods, using a graphite mold. If you cannot get graphite, perhaps charcoal or even cuttle bone will work, they work for molten silver. above the impression of the key, you make a cone large enough to hold your thermite, use a little foil to keep the thermite powder from dropping into the mold. You will then have an iron key.

The commerical thermite I used might burn at a lower temperature. I'm sure the bronze or brass alloy would be strong enough for a key.

http://www.erico.com/erico_public/product/Cadweld.asp tells all about cadwelding.

[Lil_Guppy]

I have not tried this, but what about filling the mold with a resin (epoxy) mixed with a metal powder. This would give the epoxy more strength. IIRC they use this technique for making lightweight replicas of things.

[grandyOse]

Silver is not that expensive, besides it can be reused. The casting of silver is well documented. Old American coins are 90% silver, which melts at a lower temperature than sterling. MAPP/oxygen works. These can be had for slightly over bullion price, around $5.00 a troy ounce (32 grams). Use borax for a flux. regular 20 mule team borax for laundry use is 99.9% borax. Canada, Mexico, and most European nations used silver at one time in coins. Sterling jewelry can be bought at yard sales for less than bullion if you look hard. Cuttlebone works well for silver and takes a good impression. A block of hardwood charcoal works for a crucible, which can be affixed to the cuttlebone mold, so that when the silver is molten, you just tip it and the silver flows into the mold. While still hot drop the key into dilute sulfuric to clean it. Tap it a few times will a wood or leather mallet to harden it, or try to bend it by hand back and forth. If you do manage to get a bend in it, straighten it out will a mallet, and it will be hard. Silver is harder than most people think, because most jewelry is very thin and cheaply made. My rule for working silver; When bending, think STEEL, to protect from scratching, think SOFT COPPER.

[LeftyScissorz]

Lockmasters sells a kit for impressioning they call the "clam." Pictures are (hopefully) attached. It uses clay and a type of metal they call "woods metal" and could probably be recreated from stuff at home. I used this kit to make an impression and then poured a key. From this key (which sort of worked if you jiggled enough) a locksmith was able to identify the blank to use and measure what to cut. The blank was an "H" blank from Best Access Systems, the kind that has "Duplication Prohibited" stamped on it, but I didn't have any problems and he cut me one for $5. Of course, as luck would have it, one of the pins were off, (he cut a 2798061 instead of a 2797061) so I went back with the clay impression and he figured out the adjustments to make. I now have a working key, and know what the numbers of the pins are so I can go back and cut a bunch of keys if I needed to. Success.

---------------------

I reduced the size of your images to almost one fifth of their original size, and that with hardly any loss in quality. Please do that on your own in the future, I don't have the time to do it for everyone!

Rhadon

[bigbang]

Once, a long time ago... (12 years to be exact) I used to work for a retail chain office supply store that sold among other things, photocopiers. The master key for the building used a standard shlage(sp) key so getting a blank was no problem. I just photocopied the key one day, went to K-Mart and bought an uncut key blank (they cost the same if they are cut or not) went home that night, cut out the photo copy with an exacto knife, taped it to the key blank and filed away with a small triangle file. 15 min. later I had a master key to the store.

I know this would not help if you can't get the blank, but I thought it may be useful for some situations.

[Jacks Complete]

Why all the fuss about whether the epoxy copies will be strong enough to turn the lock? Surely you just embed (carefully place) a couple or so thin steel pins into the mould before you press the "positive" epoxy into the mould. This will make it easily strong enough to turn many times, useless the lock is really stiff.

Another way would be to fill the mould, then slide the pins in from the end before it cures.

If the lock is stiff, just oil it when you use the actual key in the lock. You will probably get some brownie points for that, too! It would cover you for traces of oil or PTFE on the returned key, too. ;)

[buzzd]

You need the key, the mold, low-melting point alloy, a key cutting machine to duplicate the key (what, you thought you could take a key casting to the locksmith and have HIM duplicate it? :rolleyes: ) and all the rest of the bullshit.

I've taken broken keys and cast keys to a local shop. They've always been very helpful. Just don't take them to some chain store that hires minimum wage assholes. If you goto a local shop, they will be more customer-oriented, and the owner is probably a jack-of-all-trades type person who would love your business.

[WMD]

If the keyway is not too wavy, you can draw the outlines of your key on a strip of plastic (mica door opening cards are very good for this), cut it out and use it as a key with some jiggling motion while using a tension wrench to turn the lock. Tried and true.