NG detonation W/O detonator.

[Sonny Jim]

Today, I did a successful and interesting experiment involving NG.

The aims, to see if NG could be set off

A) Without a detonator, and

B) Without being 'dried' in NaCl solution.

I soaked 5ml into one of those cotton wool face wipes, and wrapped it up in a few layers of Al foil. I then put the 'charge' into a pan filled with NaClO3, sucrose and sulphur incendary mix, and set it off electronically with a wall and some distance in between it and me.

I heard the whoosh of the incendary mix proceed for about 5 seconds, and then a massive BOOM. With nothing other than rapid heating, the NG detonated, and from what I can tell from the results, just as well as if the NG was dried.

The bottom of the pan was blown away and was found in one piece but in a very warped concave shape, and a portion of the side of the pan was found blown out into a straight strip of metal. Another piece, a portion of the side also, was found all twisted and mangled. The pan's handle was not found. A large blast mark of flattened and uprooted grass was also present.

I think that the NG detonated unconventionally because of

A) The sudden heat rush, and

B) As it was tightly wrapped up in Al foil and therefore unable to burn.

I thought this was interesting and felt like seeing what your thoughts and theories are. SJ.

[knowledgehungry]

Yeah, any explosive will Detonate if heated quickly enough, just with some its not possible to do. I posted a similar thread called: NG+Dumbass=bad

[vulture]

IIRC, NG undergoes loworder detonation when heated. Ofcourse the question is, will this low order detonation inflict high order detonation on the remaining NG?

[a_bab]

The ability of NG to detonate at a sudden rise of the temperature is well known. One of the funny aspects is that a drop of NG will detonate if dropped on a hot plate. The plate temperature must be around 230 degrees C or so. Lower temp will result in slow decomposition, burning with flame; higher - instant vaporization. A single drop could be very loud (much louder than a firecracker).

[Cyclonite]

It more than likely wont highorder from a low order. Iv used shape charges designed for a loworder and its significantly less powerful, it was a mortar round and it stayed pretty much intact with a low order. It just had a section of the mortar wall ripped and bent out and of course all the explosives were gone.

Now that I think about it the explosive was comp B and was very insensitive, so im not 100% sure about NG but I still dont think it would HO.

[Sonny Jim]

It was definately high order. Absolutely no question about it.

[kingspaz]

i think some people in this thread are misinterpreting the means of high and low order in thsi context. both orders of what we speak are of high order as such because they are both detonations and not deflagrations (low order you might say :)). the low order we speak of in this context is a detonation of NG at 1000-4000m/s, which, given NG's large gas production is going to cause a hell of alot of damage. of course not as much as a detonation of around the 7000m/s mark but still pretty dam powerful!

so my part of the point i'm trying to make is that you can't say it was definately this or that. how do you tell the difference between 4000m/s and 6000m/s. you would say the sound but given that it could have detonated at any rate and you don't have a comparison of known VoD to listen against you've got a 50/50 chance of being right. the chances are it was a lowish velocity detonation of around 4000m/s.

[Sonny Jim]

So the higer VODs are reached only through the use of a detonator I guess. I always thought that was the case, but I've started second guessing that since what recently happened.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

NG detonates at 7000+ m/s only when a relatively large charge diamater and large cap are utilized.

[Cyclonite]

There is a difference in sound and effect. As mentioned with the mortar. You would have to hear lots of high and low orders to know the difference by ear though

[Sonny Jim]

How much would you say whether 'drying' NG or not affects it's performance? I'm beginning to wonder if it's worthwhile.

[Cyclonite]

Yes it effects it, but I dont think the performance gain would be too great, most applications of explosives people use here don’t require "the best" shit. As long as it doesn’t increase the hazard and there is no great performance gain. Iv havent made NG yet though so I may be wrong

[vulture]

Simple, if there's no water in your NG, it can't become acidic!

[Sonny Jim]

No, but are there gains in terms of the explosive's power?

[a_bab]

Yes, actually the presence of water could make NG more powerful. NC for example it is more powerfull when it contains some water. If you would dessicated the NG prior to detonation, your report might actually look like this:

"The bottom of the pan was blown away and was found in one piece but in a warped (not very, but enough) concave shape, and a portion of the side of the pan was found blown out into an almost straight strip of metal. Another piece, a portion of the side also, was found all twisted and mangled. The pan's handle was found accidently after two hours, far from the blast site. "

There are reports about batches of NG containing water, which spontaneously detonated "due to hydrolysis". Actually, as Vulture said, water + some NOx resulted from the decomposition of NG---->acid, hence a very sensitive NG. Still, I think your NG detonated from the heat. And BTW, it was a low order detonation.

[trinitride3]

If I want to be sure my NG's VOD is in the 7000 m/s range, how strong of a cap will I need at minimum. I currently use a dark aluminum/chlorate mixture loaded in aluminum bodied caps to detonate my NG. It seems to be quite powerful but after reading this thread Im starting to think the VOD may not be as high as I hoped.

(If you read the announcement at the top of each section you'll see there is no need to post the same thing 3 times! - kingspaz)

[Boomer]

I would not be sure about the low order. Above the critical diameter, most HEs usually accelerate to their high order VoD (some need confinement though).

If this was not the case, something initiated with a fulminate cap would stay at around 4500 m/s. This does not even need much way, PETN in a compound cap does this within the length of the cap!

And there is another thing that makes HO plausible: If NG is initiated by ‘cooking off’, it gets more and more sensitive until it makes DDT. The molecules are so ‘exited’ (on such a high energy level) that it takes virtually nothing to make them detonate. That is why the drop test value goes from e.g. 0.8 Nm at RT to nearly zero at boiling temperature. Taking this into account, it is not unlikely that the sample accelerates to high order if it is sufficiently large.

[trinitride3]

Thanks Boomer! So If I got this right, when I reach NG's critical diameter or above and use a big enough detonator (size wise, of the same aluminum/chlorate composition) it should go HO regardless of specific cap size/stregth used? Could you give me an example of NG's critical diameter in size & weight? I find NG to be quite insensitive, could I decrease the critical diameter by sensitizing it with a small amount of aluminum powder?

Im sorry about the repeat posting Kingspaz, it won't happen again.