HMTD accident

[S. Toppholzer]

gentlemen,

i was lucky. i had surgery this week and thankfully most of my fingers are somewhat fine.
I tried figuring out what went wrong.
here's what O did.
I mixed 4 grams HMTD witn NC lacquer (acetone based) and filled the liquid in a plastic container made of crystallized polistyrol.
after a couple of minutes it spontaneoulsy detonated and hurt me pretty bad.

i think what happened was an acidic sidereaction because the plastic reacted with the acetone -> acid has been set free -> detonation.

am i correct?

[A-BOMB]

Toppholzer, how bad were your injuries? How far away were you when it went off, how big off a charge was it? And most of all be careful, most of us would be saddend to see another forumite hurt or killed or even not able to continue with our dangerous hobby. So from me and I would guess most of the other forumites I'm glade you alright.

[xoo1246]

Oh, thankfully you didn't loose any fingers. Glad you didn't hurt yourself too badly. How does this affect your relationship with the hobby?

[xtreme]

S. Toppholzer

Did you washed your HMTD, removing the acids/remaining H2O2 ?
When I get my HTMD (after the 3 hours) out of the refrigerator and let it become on room temp. it is getting real hot.
A time ago I had a coocking HTMD-solution <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
This was very scarry. So....room temp. = 20 degr.C (controled with bad)

So...when you did not remove the acids, the reaction continous en the
temp. rise.....rises to high and detonate...perhaps ?!
Or....remaining H2O2 reacts with your acetone of your NC solution and forming AP....on a far to high temp instead of the 5 degr.C ?!

Just some thinks coming in my mind....

[kingspaz]

S. Toppholzer, fucking hell!...i'm glad you're relatively ok.
had you neutralised the NC and HMTD? you seem to have enough sense to neutralise the HMTD but did you neutralise the NC well?

[Al Koholic]

Holy fuck man...that is a strange accident and I am glad you are ok. Well the acetone would have surely absorbed into and softened (I don't believe an actual acid-freeing reaction occured) the polystyrol (or was it polystyrene...either way). However, this I can't see being a problem since the acetone is not reacting with the plastic. This could just be one of those things. HMTD is inherently unstable and there is always a statistical chance that it will detonate by itself just sitting there. Could just be bad luck to be honest. I hope your injuries heal and you feel better. I once had a 2 litre wine bottle full of hot HCL and Al foil blow up in my hand. It was intended to be a hydrogen gas generator with 2 water filtration chambers (to extract HCL vapor) and all. It was working fine for a few runs but then one time...a little too much of one or both of the reactants and the small diameter of the hose connecting the reaction vessle to the filtration vessles...BOOM. Blew hot acid and glass all over the room. Two nice gashes on my arm and a lot of blood later I know what kind of experience it is to have unexpected things happen like that. Although, live and learn and hope that the way wont have to be too hard man.

Eh hem...sorry for that little tangent there but I really hope things are alright. Peace.

Al

[FarbrorBosse]

I'm very sorry to hear you got hurt.
Sounded like some of your fingers got badly damaged, is it so bad they wont look like they once did or?
And how did your surroundings react such as relatives/neighbors hospital and police?

AP and HMTD does not just detonate without reason.

In room temp AP sublime into the air little by little and 2 things that can go wrong while dealing with it is traces of impurities reacting with surrounding material causing heat, or a container such as a closed coke bottle with traces of H2O2 left causing more and more pressure until the bottle finally break resulting in a quick burnout in the AP as well, no matter if acid and water is still in the bottle.

If you mix ammonia and iodine the crystals can explode by its own weight, but to cause a detonation in AP crystals or HMTD you need a pressure of 0.3 Nm for AP or a 0.1 Nm friction.

[edit] questions added.

<small>[ August 15, 2002, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: FarbrorBosse ]</small>

[NERV]

Dude, I hope your okay. That has got to suck ass. What kind of injuries did you get.

[Disgusted_with_Society]

Glad youre okay, are you still going to have full use of your hands? I have a friend that had a similar accident back in the day and till this day he cant write with that hand. (Sorry didnt mean to scare ya) But I really hope youre okay. Get well soon.

[0EZ0]

Geez, your a lucky bugger not to have more substantial injuries!
Hope the hand heals up well.

As for what might have caused the detonation, more information is needed. What kind of NC lacquer did you use? Had the HMTD been completely neutralised of acid? Did you notice any heat generated from putting the HMTD/lacquer in the Polistyrol.

It may be that you got an acidic side reaction from the Polistyrol, in turn detonating the HMTD.
If the NC Lacquer was made from mixing Commercial Smokeless Powder with Acetone, then it is very unlikely that any acid could have been in it. Commercial SP is neutralised many times because of NC's sensitivity to remaining acids.
If the NC was homemade and not properly neutralised then that may have been the problem.
But all is on speculation awaiting further details of what happened.

If this had of happened to me, I'd be righteously pissed! It must have had quite a psychological impact on you apart from physical.

Anyways, get well mate :)

[THErAPIST]

holy shit kid... that sucks. ive had a couple close calls but i havent gotten hurt bad. seeing as how youre typing i assume youre gonna be ok. hope everythings cool. i dunno why exactly it would have detonated, guess thats just how it goes. shit happens. both hands messed up or just one?

[Microtek]

I have done some experiments with partially desensitizing HMTD with wax. I have done it by dissolving a little wax in gasoline and then mixing the HMTD with the soln. The gasoline is evaporated while the slurry is stirred or kneaded slightly. I haven't yet established the best amount of wax, but adding so little that the HMTD remains powdery can make it unable to make DDT even when mixed with lead styphnate.
I should think that the wax would also make it less reactive, so accidents like these could be avoided. I only regret that this advice comes too late to help in this case.

[S. Toppholzer]

Well,the detonation caught both my hands and one finger will surely remind me forever for what stupid jackass i have been.

Anyways, the NC lacquer used was made of ping pong balls dissolved in acetone. The HMTD was definately neutralized.

I think another explanation might be that the plastic softened up, caught some HMTD inside and dried again. while shrinking the pressure got too high and it went off.

To be honest - for now I surely have had enough of experimenting.
(Besides of all the legal troubles this s%@%t brought me in)

[DarkAngel]

So you still have them all 10?
Did the doctors said how the accident will affect your live? (Problems with writing and stuff like that)

When i almost set my kitchen on fire with the KNO3/Suger comp. i thought the same thing "No more experiments" but that idea never staid long in my mind.
But im not the one that almost lost my hands.

Uhm does 2kg of ANNM that detonated 20m behind me count? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<small>[ August 17, 2002, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: DarkAngel ]</small>

[Kdogg]

Damn DarkAngel, What all happened to you? What was the experience like, I myself have never been that close to a shockwave. Sorry to hear about that S.Toppholzer, what are some of the legal issues you are in? How did authorities find out.

[nbk2000]

The cops find out when the hospital calls them to let them know that some guy has come in a few fingers short of a full hand and with shrapnel in remaining meat.

Do the math. :rolleyes:

So, did you lose a finger? Or just use of one?

Understandably you'd want to take a break from experimenting. But don't give up on it. After all, Noble lost a brother to NG, and almost got killed himself, but he didn't stop working with it.

[None]

Sorry to hear about your accident. I hope you don't get into much trouble with the police.

I vaguely remember someone posting about an accident with HMTD/NC. I think they made a few charges in M80 casings for a celebration. They went off when they were drying. I think it was on this forum that i read it. I quickly tried looking for it on the archives but couldn't find it. I would avoid mixing HMTD with anything after reading of numerous accidents with it in mixes.

BTW, August to December of your 2001 archives on prohosting don't seem to work.

[PYRO500]

If that happened to me I'd pitch them the old urban legend of lighting a welding torch witha disposable lighter witch if the torch melts the lighter through is likely only to get enough oxygen to make a frireball. I am one of the rare few to have a lighter actually explode in their hand, in my case it was with BP. anyway's there are many other things you could tell them but if whoever drives you tells a diffrent story your fucked anyways.
I think in some cases I'd rather loose a digit and risk infection than sit in a prison for creating a destructive device and being labeled a terroist.

<small>[ August 17, 2002, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]</small>

[frostfire]

from your description, it seems your hands are completely okay...just one "different" finger as a monumental memory...get well soon :)

Were your materials improvised? or lab grade?
If improvised, then who knows how many variables play parts in the accident.
I myself always used lab grade. However,.....
guess things had gone better for me, (testing det)1gr AP putty with a disposable lighter. Fuse "melts" AP went off even before the lighter flame went out (well, the explosion/air expansion blow it out anyway)

Ears ringing for 9 hours, right ear felt numb, right palm full with tiny black dots...and that was it, I threw the urea nitrate bags that were supposedly detonated away...and I quit..that was 1.5 years ago....which is why I'm not a good forum contributor <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

<small>[ August 17, 2002, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: frostfire ]</small>

[Kdogg]

Doesnt always work like that though nbk.
My mom works as a paramedic, (Part time job) & she said they have brought kids to the er before that have had hand injuries from illegal explosives they called them. Which really is true, cause this day and age anything that could cause a serious hand injury is almost always an illegal device.
Me having an interest in this hobby we all enjoy so much, got paranoid about it happening to me,(this was a while back, my parents have long since gotten used to my hobby) asked her what happened to the kid, shes explains to me about his sugery, & I said, "No, what were the consequences for using the explosive, did you or anyone else call the cops?" She said they usually let the parents decide what to do about the incident. Cause they would rather not have pissed parents for getting their kid in even deeper shit, & just not notify the police, because they are not obligated to. (dont quote me on the part where they dont have to notify authorities) The employees may have just been trying their best to bend the rules, to steer clear of extra work.

[10fingers]

I had an accident with HMTD putty. I mixed it with SP dissolved in acetone then put it in paper cylinders to dry. There were 5 of them and they were about the size of an M-80. They were in my workshop drying for about a day when they spontaneously detonated. The small table they were laying on was blown to bits and pieces of it were sticking in the walls.
I was very lucky because in about 5 minutes I was going to pick them up to test them. I posted about this over a year ago.
To what caused this one can only speculate, it may have been crystal growth and shearing inside of the drying NC. Toppholzers accident sounds like something different though, it happened before there was time for any type of crystal growth.
Anyway I never mixed HMTD with anything again.

[parabolic]

hope you are ok S. Toppholzer, sounds like you were very unlucky m8.

this makes me even more cautious of making my first HTMD.

hope you get well soon.

[Ruffryder]

Toppholzer, I'm truely sorry to hear about your accident. It's never a good thing to hear of another fellow pyrotechnician's misfortune. My heart goes out to you. Hope you heal up well, and get through the legalities.
My only offer is that possibly the polstyrene had some form of acidic reaction from the NC, like what others have said.

Catchya, Tim

[vulture]

How could polystyrene cause an acidic side reaction?
Please explain, as I see no way how dissolving polystyrene in acetone can set free acid.

Ping pong ball NC is not quality controlled as gunpowder NC, therefore it could be acidic. Also, this is usually cellulosedinitrate, which has a negative OB and thus acts as a reducer. Since peroxides are strong oxidizers...

Well, good to hear you are OK. Let's hope the cops won't bust your ass.

<small>[ August 18, 2002, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

I'm sorry to hear about your accident. :(

I've had a pyrotechnic accident before, back in my kewl days... a mixture of powdered "Solidox" (mostly sodium chlorate with a small amount of MnO2) and powdered sugar spontaneously ignited while my face was only about two feet away. I was clueless then about mass, but I'm estimating it was around 100g. I had pretty severe 2nd degree burns. A miracle that I didn't have any vision damage (I have 20/3 vision, so I really would be upset if my eyes were damaged). Amazingly, there was no scarring.

I had that accident with H2SO4 spraying in my eyes that I shared about in the "Accidents and Legal Incidents" thread.

That's it for stuff that caused serious personal injury. Of course, I've burned the nerves dead in my fingertips from touching hot stuff (I don't even care anymore when I burn my fingertips). I have a few small picric acid stains on my shoes. It's inevitable, being a mad scientist.

I'm just glad I didn't have an accident that caused serious permanent injury. That really sucks to have that happen, Toppholzer. :(

My opinion is that primary explosives should never be mixed with anything. They're just too sensitive for people without extensive experience with chemistry to be blindly mixing and testing. I knew that someday something like this would happen - at least it hasn't happened with those cursed "APAN" mixtures yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

I'm hypothesizing that as the acetone evaporated, the plastic, being well-mixed with the HMTD, began to solidify in a matrix-like form. As it continued to solidify, it contracted, compressing entangled HMTD; which caused detonation.

I hope that everyone can learn from this accident. Let's not forget about this incident, so we don't have more accidents as severe, or worse than, this one.

[Madog555]

damn, man that realy sucks. i have heard of HMTD/NC mixes spontaniously detonateing before. i hope this prevents more accidents.

i have never had a bad accident. once i was holding a small comercial firecracker that had a homeade greande ignition system on it. all of a sudden it started to fizz and smoke. so i threw it up the stairs and it exploded about a foot of the ground. luckily only my dad was home so i didnt get in trouble. if my mom was home there would have been hell.

another time i had just got nice Al and KClO4 from pyrotek so i made flash. i had several grams on a piece of newspaper. i lit a little to test it and a spark whent from it to the big pile. it made a TON of smoke. luckily i wasnt hurt. i got in trouble for filling half the house with smoke.

i have burned my self plenty of times. fuse sometimes shoots a jet of flame out and burns you.

i have destroyed plenty of pairs of pants and shirts from acid and H2O2 bkleeching. my sneakers have TNP stains on them as well. i have stained my skin a couple times too. i used to always stain my skin with KMnO4 too, that was a pain.

in my early days i used to set off stuff in the winter that had KMnO4 in it and the unused oxidiser would stain the snow purple! i used to have to melt or bury all that snow to avoid getting caught. what a pain in the ass.

[Kdogg]

I too remember the purple snow days, if you can wait overnight it will just turn to dirty looking non-suspicious snow.

[A-BOMB]

Ah the purple snow I wondered if that would ever come up again.

[Madog555]

i noticed that it fades overnight into inconspicuous snow. but back then my parrents didnt know and i was afaid they would see it when they got home so i had to cover up.

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

*decides to further derail thread*

Snow becomes an interesting color when a dense fog of NO2 resides over it.

[kingspaz]

thats enough of the snow thing now i think :)
time to get this thing back on topic. anyone got anymore suggestions as to what happend?

[Boomer]

I know this comes late, but I had a similar thing happen to me. A small ball of plastique detonated while I was CAREFULLY (!) mixing it on a piece of hard wood (so no shrapnel) with a long tool. It was made of a sub-gram amount of MHN, plasticised with MNT and sensitised (it should make a mouldable case-less cap) with a little HMTD. The applied pressure and friction were definitely not enough to set the HMTD off, especially since it was kind of lubricated by the rest of the soft mass. I think I mentioned this in the MHN thread already, but I posted a more detailed story here because I start to think that HMTD can spontaneously detonate if mixed with something containing nitro-groups or nitro-ester-groups. Maybe the amine-groups react first, breaking down the molecule. If it was caused by the shrinking, it would be worse with AP putty. And: my stuff was still soft.

That time ago nothing happened except ringing ears. It was this month that I lost 2 ½ fingers (see ‘…worst accident’ threat in the WC). People, let’s forget peroxides and fuses, or has anyone here ever heard of an accident with electric ignition + enough wire length?

[Bert]

You can have accidents with electricaly fired ignition too- Different set of problems though. Forgetting the chargeing terminals on your pager are hot, let the wires brush against them while carrying the det- Unshunt the leads while walking under high tension wires- Unroll the blasting wire from the reel AFTER connecting the cap to it- Carry a charge capped on a dry day with the wires trailing on the ground- And, of course, hooking up a cap to an allready energized wire. Lots more, these are just ones I personaly have seen/heard the results of. Handling explosives in any form is never risk free.

One moments inattention to EVERY detail can mean your life will change forever.

[Thermite]

I had an accident while i was making HMTD. I mixed the HP with the Hexa first, and then i added the HCL, taking care of the temperature by putting the solution into an ice bath. Later i sealed the solution and i put it in a refrigerator. Sudenly i smelled HCL, so i opened the refrigerator and it was full of a thick white cloud of what i suppose were H and Cl fumes...i'm wondering where did i make a mistake?... maybe the solution wasn't cold enough when i put it in the refrigerator?