Danger Ap!

[knowledgehungry]

Ok everyone here has stressed just how important it is to be careful with AP, but I feel that i need to reitirate the importance of treating it with EXTREME caution. Andrey Kolyada an associate of mine is now lacking 2 fingers on his left hand due to our fickle friend, the AP detonator and the main charge he was inserting the det into exploded, he suffered a broken rib due to a piece of shrapnel hitting him. He was tapping the det into place with a hammer then it went off. This relates to the "Fuck Im done" thread but i felt it deserved its own topic, maybe there should be a sticky thread with every known accident involving AP we have. I really dont want this to happen to anyone else. Fortunately he had the presence of mind to get rid of his hardrive and all incriminating evidence (because there was none of course ;))before he called an ambulance, so no charges are being pressed and he is currently in my organic chemistry class.

[0EZ0]

Poor kid. But really hammering an AP det into a main charge? It's not surprising that he got an ass whomping. Lucky it was not any worse.

Good to hear that he had the sense to make sure that his computer security was in place. Did he completely remove the hard-drive from his computer? Or did he wipe it using a program? It would be interesting to know.

My regards to your 'associate'.

[knowledgehungry]

He physically removed it.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

He was tapping the det into place with a hammer then it went off

I have absolutely no sympathy for this kid. People like this are DANGEROUS to themselves and others, and definately shouldnt be playing with explosives.

I mean, i would never treat ap like that in my wildest dreams. I hold dets by the fuse/wires while carrying them and treat them very grently.

[User Name]

remember that not all AP is the same. test each batch for sensitivity to presure, impact, and ability to DDT. my AP i have right now is impresively unsensative. takes a nice blow from a hammer(enbough to fuckin HURT a finger.) how damn hard was he hitting it and why was he?

[nbk2000]

It's amazing that a person could have the presence of mind to dispose of their HDD after having their fingers blown off, but not have had the good sense to NOT HIT A DETONATOR WITH A HAMMER, causing the loss of said digits in the first place. :confused:

How could you NOT know that doing so would be a VERY BAD idea? You PUSH, not WHACK, a detonator into place.

As such, this guy is a darwin award candidate.

Also, he got a busted rib from where a piece of shrapnel hit him? Must have been a mighty weak explosive, and poorly built at that. Anything I've built would have either blown me into pink mist or the shrapnel shred me to kibble, not busted a rib and nip off a few fingers.

[EP]

Here is another AP-related accident people should see:

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum19/HTML/004355.html

You might say "haha, somebody from totse got hurt!" but I think it's important to try and figure out why WET AP putty detonated like it did to try and keep it from happening in the future.

[DBSP]

I've only got three things to say:

1) You have to be fucking stupid to hammer an AP det into a main charge.

2) Attempting such a thing is mostly the result of lacking knowledge. Had he known that it doesn't take more than one AP crystal detonationg to set the whole charge off he might not have chosen to hammer it into the main charge.

3) Had he done what everyone should do before starting off with explosives, namely gaining knowledge by reading averything there is to read on the subject before attempting it himself he would still have all his fingers present.

[T_Pyro]

Originally posted by DBSP

1) You have to be fucking stupid to hammer an AP det into a main charge.



You said it.
I'm curious, though- what did your "associate" attribute this accident to? Did the cops get called in at all?

[Al Koholic]

In my book, putting any amount of faith into certain explosives (IE: organic peroxides, NI3NH3, etc) is begging for trouble. The probability of having an accident, even without apparent cause, increases drastically as the sensitivity of the explosive rises just a bit. Honestly I would love to see everyone stop making things like AP, HMTD and the like.

The problem is that the chemicals are soooooooooooo easy to get, you need next to NO specialized equipment, you don't have to know anything about chemistry (see above totse story) to come up with some damned stupid ideas about factors affecting explosive sensitivity, ad nauseum. People want to see that bang right away without taking the maannnnnnnny small steps (in a better direction) they should have been taking. Making acetone peroxide is like telling the world that you are too impatient to bother with anything else (much less learning) and need to have your "explosive fix" this instant.

I just hope someone currently thinking that AP is "the shit!" will stop, think about it, read, then start buying the equipment they need to make much safer things. Putting that kind of slow, meticulous, time and effort will lead you on a safer path in the long run.

Don't make AP. AP is evil. You only like AP because of greed and impatience.

[Nevermore]

Originally posted by Al Koholic

Don't make AP. AP is evil. You only like AP because of greed and impatience.

Well, i do not agree completely, AP is evil as much as HMTD, as much as mercury fulminate and so on..primaries are really nasty things, but their sensitivity is needed, AP being a peroxide is sensitive and sometime can go into self decomposition, even if i've never experienced (fortunately). But, thinking about other primaries, most of them are not well explained like this one, this one requires no professional equipment, doesn't undergo in dangerous reactions during preparation and uses cheap and easy to find ingredients...
Beside that, you can find information about it almost everywhere... what about the other primaries? i've had hard time finding info about the double salts, and much more bout Hydrazine compounds...most of them are hard to prepare or require controlled ingredients, not easy to find chemicals, professional equipment, or have a so bad yeld...
It could be good if it was available a list of primaries ordered by sensitivity, maybe explaining about the reactions too..
i've been not able to find it, and even in the most complete list i know (megalomania web) there are lotsa of missing ones..is almost impossible to write a complete list, but i wonder if a list of the most common ones is available..

[knowledgehungry]

The major problem with AP is that it is extremely unpredictable, sometimes its insensitive as a drill sergeant other times its like my girl during PMS.

[kingspaz]

and that is what catches people out. aswell as people who think they know everything making large batches because its easy. silver double salts isn't much harder to make than AP. its a much better initiator and has quite similar sensitivity to lead azide apart from its flame sensitivity which is much higher. this in my opinion makes it the ideal primary for us. i think people often shy away from it because they don't understand the scraps of info they find. i agree that it is very hard to find any good info if any. federoff vol 1 is the ONLY source of useful information i have found.

[Al Koholic]

I'm not a silver double salt buff but I believe that among primaries, DDNP is by far the best way to go. As far as primaries are concerned it has low sensitivity to impact, flame, and must be confined tighly for any quantity less than about 5 grams to make the DDT. I would love it if people here would use it more but theres always the easy way....

I am not going to even attempt to point out that hammering on a cap with DDNP would have resulted in any different circumstances however. You just dont hammer on a cap, period.

[PasstheDutch]

Why don't you SEARCH and read the thread called "AP Beginners guide" that would answer all your questions?

Also, AP Putty is old, so old we don't talk about it anymore, having moved onto better things. Try SEARCHING the net for information about it, eh? :p

[serene]

Its replies like this that really scare me into not wanting to progress onto explosives i havent worked with before. Although this is the case I know that if i look in the archieves then i have a wealth of information that will hopefully guide me through each process safely.
From posts like this i can see the dangers of many explosives when care and respect are not taken into account. I have a friend who immediatly after making Black Powder wanted to move straight onto RDX. Although not fully criticising what he wants to do, In my mind it is plain stupid to move onto something as high as that.

All i can say is that 'ignorance is not bliss'.

Craig
PS: Is this bad for a first post or is this an improvment to the usual newbie 'how do i make BP' sort of thread.

[knowledgehungry]

Actually RDX is a great explosive, if you can make it. AP is far more dangerous than RDX, and most primaries, just beacuase something is more difficult to make does not mean it is more dangerous. Also if that was a bad post we would let you know, your asking that question makes you look like a little kid searching for approval, and its kinda annoying, to me at least.

[Cyclonite]

Not a bad post but not informative- At least your not talking about setting off some NG with a blackcat. If you can follow directions and you have an understanding of what you are trying to do in a synth your good to go as long as you ALWAYS respect the explosive. I love this hobby/work but if you become complacent it will kill or injure you at some point in time. Its important to be comfortable but not complacent with making it as nervousness gives you a higher chance to fuck up, just don't forget what it can do to you in less than a second you life is over.....If you follow these basic rules than there's little chance of injury or death

[PasstheDutch]

Originally posted by Cyclonite
If you can follow directions and you have an understanding of what you are trying to do in a synth your good to go as long as you ALWAYS respect the explosive.

True that cyclo, i think that its in some way the same like firearms, you treat it as if it was loaded (respect). I might be a newby but i Have read a great deal about this matter (as well on this forum as in my books) and i certainly know better then to hit a det with a hammer.
I think its very good these things are discussed too because this way people can learn from other peoples mistakes without the messy side-effect of the empirical method:D.

I aint sayin' nothing about AP here, i've found another place ;)

dutch....

[kingspaz]

dutch, stop post whoring. that post was useless. its provides no information/advice so is useless.

from now on think before you post and think long and hard about it. you're walking very close to the edge of the cliff that is HED.

[PasstheDutch]

Originally posted by kingspaz
dutch, stop post whoring. that post was useless. its provides no information/advice so is useless.

Kingspaz , could you please explain to me what you mean with post whoring? I'm just giving my opinion here, and trying to show that its in a way the same with firearms, and the same thing can be said with other things too for example drugs.So i dont know why you're attacking me, because I AM thinking about my posts.

[kingspaz]

i'm attacking you because your posts lack quality. small talk is reserved for the water cooler. now learn fast or die fast, simple as that. don't come back with any apologies or answers. this thread has been polluted enough already.

edit: 'post whoring' could be found by searching. in short, it means you are replying to many, many threads with low quality replies.

[nbk2000]

Post Whoring is also a HED offense. :D

If someone had read the rules, then they'd know what Post Whoring is, and not do it, but someone didn't and now they get to pay the price. :p

Since he's no longer here...what does it matter.

[zeocrash]

while we're on the topic of the dangers of AP, i'd like to bring up a recent accident at pfizer.
a lab assistant was recently injured in pfizer's michigan labs when the t-butyl hyroperoxide he was working with exploded. since i have associates at pfizer i will be uploading internal reports and advisary documents about organic peroxides to the ftp when it's back up.
just out of interest, does anyone know anything about t-butyl hydroperoxide, i'm not familiar with the name i'm afraid

[vulture]

t-butyl hydroperoxide refers to tertiary butyl hydroperoxide. Tertiary butyl is merely 3CH3 groups bonded to a central carbon atom. Hydroperoxide is simply OOH.

..........CH3...........
............|.............
..CH3---C---OOH
............|..............
...........CH3

EDIT: Organic hydroperoxides are often used as catalysts in polymerization reactions.

[Hang-Man]

I find there is a direct relation to how long I leave the AP in the acetone/Acid solution and how sensitive it is. Has anyone else noticed this? am I just an idiot? If I take my AP out after 1 hour I have AP than can only be detonated by flame. Im using 100% HCL, 35% H2O2 and pure acetone. maby that has something to do with it?

[vulture]

Let me get this straight, you're using 100% HCl, so you're bubbling HCl gas through your reaction solution?

[zeocrash]

no stupid a 100% hcl solution :P
where exactly do you get 100% hcl solution, or do you make it yourself

[Macgyver]

Originally posted by zeocrash
no stupid a 100% hcl solution :P
where exactly do you get 100% hcl solution, or do you make it yourself

There is no such thing as a 100% HCl solution. Commercially it's not sold over 37%....

100% HCl is a gas, not a liquid, not sure how much higher than 37% you can go, but it's not much....

Try smelling 37% HCl and you'll see that even that readily wants to turn into a gas!

[Sarevok]

Originally posted by zeocrash
no stupid a 100% hcl solution
A solution is a mixture of solvent and solute(s). If the HCl is 100%, then there is nothing mixed with it, there is no solution, it is a gas. If the HCl is dissolved in water, there is a solution, it is a liquid, but it must be under 100%. So, Hang-Man is bubbling HCl through his acetone/H2O2, or he is using concentrated (but not 100%) HCl.

Edit: There is always someone quicker than I. :(

[Hang-Man]

I’m working from an old container of 'Muriatic' acid which doesn’t list its concentration, so I titrated it found it to be about 100% (there is obviously some error which I attribute to bad equipment) It gives off heavy fumes and hollows out pennies quite fast so I do believe it is nearly 100% :) I treat it as pure HCL and my reactions always have pretty accurate yields.:D

[Hang-Man]

There is no such thing as a 100% HCl solution. Commercially it's not sold over 37%....

This was added to the thread while I was typing my other reply. Had I read it, I would have redone the lab before posting such obviously flawed info. My acid can’t be nearly 100%, which means I must have done something very wrong in that titration lab... I shall redo it soon and find out what the actual concentration is. But if we could get back to my original question, has anyone noticed a relation between the amount of time you let the AP sit in the acetone/acid solution and its sensitivity?

P.S.: Perhaps someone with a copy of the Merck Index could look up HCL and find out its solubility?

[T_Pyro]

A saturated solution of HCl at 20*C contains 42% HCl by wt, and the "concentrated" acid sold commercially normally contains 38% HCl by wt (that's about 12M). 100% HCl, as far as I know is just not sold. At STP, about 44.8 litres of HCl gas is soluble in 100 ml water.

[zeocrash]

i realise that there is no such thing as thing as 100% HCl solution.
i was trying to make a witty mocking comment, damn, you are a humourless lot, i try to make a wisecrack and you think i'm being serious
on another note, i'm not quite sure how you managed to get 100% from a titration. that's quite some error

[Cyclonite]

Come on, it doesn’t take 7 posts to say that HCL cant be that concentrated in a liquid form. As far as my AP experiences go I didn’t notice any huge difference in sensitivity, from what I understand when chemicals with a higher concentration are used the reaction takes less time resulting in larger crystals that are formed thus increasing sensitivity. HCL results in smaller crystals, H2SO4 in larger.

[zeocrash]

H2SO4 results in more sensitive AP because it causes localised heating when it is added to the H2O2 acetone mixture, this causes the production of more sensetive dimeric ap

[Sir Dudalot]

I don't think the localised overheating would apply to everyone who makes AP using H2SO4. It would depend on how much they added at a time...unless your talking about extremely localised overheating. I always add my H2SO4 dropwise and about 4-5 mL at a time. I don't think H2SO4 dropped in individually will cause enough local overheating to form enough dimeric AP to cause it's sensitivity to noticeable raise. I do like your idea however. If the batch was already close to 10*C then local overheating could occur and form dimeric AP. I've also been thinking that since the AP doesn't form as soon as the acid touches the solution that it wouldn't form the dimeric version because hardly any AP is formed the second that it's overheated. It would mostly be formed at least a second or two after the "hot spot" has come back into equilibrium with the rest of the solution.

I've never noticed that if you let it sit longer it's more sensitive. It doesn't seem like this would effect it any because all the acid gets washed away at the end no matter what. It'd almost be better to let it sit for a little while longer so that any extra acetone will evaporate increasing your yield. :D

[Hang-Man]

Maby I'm missing something; but why would you use H2SO4 when HCL is much cheaper and easier to get? (where is everyone getting their H2SO4 anyway?)

[Sir Dudalot]

Indeed it is much cheaper ($3 a gallon compared to 7$ for 1.5 L) but H2SO4 makes the reaction go much faster than HCl. Also, I use 3% H2O2 so 31.45% HCl isn't going to help that much seeing as it's mostly water. I'm going to use HCl though and compare reaction times using equal amounts (by volume).

With regards to where to get some handy-dandy sulfuric acid, in the words of NBK (am I allowed to do that?).....do a search. Oh, and if you did do a search and didn't come up with anything, I pity you.

[Cyclonite]

A few days ago I "found" 5 gal of 98% H2SO4, I had no place to keep it so I poured .5L of it in a plastic bottle. Big mistake, the H2SO4 ate through the bottle and onto the upholstery of the vehicle I was using. All the acid iv used came in plastic, I guess it was a different type. That took a while to clean up. So stop by Iraq, Ill give you 1 gal for free.

[badmilk]

He Hammered It?
Chirst, he's lucky to be alive dude...

[Hang-Man]

ya, it must have been a VERY shitty explosive. If I hammered any of my explosives, it would have resulted in the hammer being sent back through my head at like MACH 3.

[Anthony]

Ah, done a lot of tests with explosive propelled hammers have we? And also concluded that quantity of explosive used has zero bearing on the effects?

[Hang-Man]

think of the smallest explosive you’ve made that required a det. now imagine being close enough to touch it when it went off. would you have survived?

[Anthony]

Most of the explosives I have made are itty-bitty-teensy-weensy little things, barely larger than a cluster of atoms, so being within arms reach isn't a problem when one detonates.

Maybe I'm being pedantic though? Well the size would then range from a particle a few microns in size up to maybe the size of a grain of regular table salt. Despite the orders of magnitude greater amounts, I'm still not in trouble at arms length.

[aikon]

i did some research. he removed his harddisc?
Type "Andrey Kolyada" in the google search machine.


The Philadelphia Inquirer: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/2003/08/06/news/local/6466357.htm

"Tracts on making bombs found at site of explosion

A search by police and federal investigators of a house in Northeast Philadelphia where an explosion Monday injured an 18-year-old resident turned up "written materials related to constructing a bomb" and various chemicals, including those used in the formation of picric acid - an unstable explosive substance - police said yesterday.

Andrey Kolyada, of the 1900 block of Witler Street in Bustleton, ran from his house badly hurt after the 11:35 a.m. explosion, suffering from multiple injuries, including extensive damage to his left arm and hand.

A spokesman at Thomas Jefferson University Hospital listed Kolyada in stable condition yesterday. Detectives said investigators were considering lodging charges against Kolyada.

In a brief interview with agents from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Kolyada said he was trying to "construct some sort of fireworks" when the explosion occurred, police said in a report. Detectives also confiscated a computer hard drive, wiring, and other chemicals along with pieces of evidence consistent with making explosive devices. The blast occurred in Kolyada's bedroom, police said. A school district spokesman said Kolyada graduated from Central High School in June."

clearification:
This is just an online news article. I don't know if the information in this article is correct. Another forum member has oppositional data on the
subject. I can't verify one of the theses above. Whatever happened, that's the way media reports about such incidents.

[knowledgehungry]

Don't Fuck with me, I talk to the kid practically everyday, he goes to my school, the newspaper was... *Gasps* WRONG!. Im sorry but I KNOW what happened, dont quote some newspaper BS at me.

[aikon]

Well, it wasn't my intention to "fuck you". I know that over 90% in the media is crap, but that's not the issue. The main reason i put this article in my post was to show how media reacts on such incidents.
I admit that I didn't make that clear enough in my post. Please take note that I'll edit the message and put a clarification under the article as soon as possibile.

[sauvin]

What mass of AP would you be comfortable with to detonate in your kitchen? Size of a grain of table salt? A pea? Cigarette filter?

[blindreeper]

sauvin, you dickhead. Why would anyone want to be comfotable detonating explosives in his/her own house? Your an idiot for even asking that question. Also you said what mass would you be comfortable with, and then you said table salt, pea and a cigarette filter - in case you don't know one is reffering to mass and one is reffering to volume so your questions is invalid.
With those volumes of AP assuming they are unpressed just light and fluffy crystals they would burn with a fire ball not detonate. Thus meaning you would have to have some confinment, thus creating an AP cracker or blasting cap, thus making you a n00b for thinking about detonating a blasting cap in my kitchen. The fucking kitchen is for cooking and preparing food not setting off blasting caps!

So basicly your questions is:-

"What size blasting cap or cracker filled with AP would you feel coomfortable to detonate where you prepare your food? #6?#8?"

[nbk2000]

I once had about an ounce of AP deflagerate while I was letting it dry out on top of the stove (not on obviously!) when it exploded when I slammed the oven door shut. I was about three feet away from it and the fireball was about a foot around and at least a meter high.

I didn't even have time to flinch. Then I noticed a strange smell and noticed the last inch or so of my hair was crispied and my eyebrows were burnt off! :eek:

If I had been leaning over it, I'd be blind and/or horribly disfigured from severe burns.

So I'd be comfortable with a gram or less exploding, unconfined, and handled with tongs or some other remote-handling.

And certainly not on purpose.

[sauvin]

I wil never deny being a n00b, particularly since explosives are not actually of great interest to me. I fully understand that a reasonably intelligent man does not shit where he eats, but I WAS looking for some ball-park SWAG (silly wild-ass guess) as to what kind of VOLUME would not be perceived as excessive if it SHOULD detonate or deflagrate in the house (and I'm charitably assuming nobody does this kind of thing in a bedroom).

[DBSP]

I doo.

The room next to mine could be considered a bit of a workshop, my brother often works on his MC there and I use the room when working with things that needs tooling and a insensitive place to be with it.

In that room I've detonated charges many times. I've got a wodden box that I prepare with phone books and similar stuff suited for the charge. The charges are however only small sub gram charges. Suchs as testing small ammounts of primaries.

After the charges are detonated I open the wondows and start a fan to get rid of the smoke.

This is always done under strict supervision though, I would never do anythting that I know would be dangerous.

[McGyver]

Can you give a little bit of information on what kind of explosive "Andrey" was making? Because i dont understand why he would need to use a hammer on blasting cap...

[metal dragon]

He is just an idiot I guess as it has been said many times he must have been totally stupid to hit a blasting cap with a hammer.

[telecard]

I have to agree, hitting a cap with a hammer is no way 2 treat it.But in terms of confinement dont underestimate how little is neccesary to facilitage detonation. I had a small amount between my right index and thumb (Yeah i know-silly F**k) and it jus detonated for no apparent reason. I was lucky and only lost about a centimeter of each finger but i am never f**king with such unstables again and i dont advise ne one elso 2. lucky livin in a third world country in africa no one actualy asks any questions so the parents are the only ones to deal with. :-(

[Nevermore]

uhmm strange really.
what kinda primary you were holding between you finger, and why you did that?

[Trinitrotoluene]

One thing I had noticed with AP is even if you leave it in a pile in open air, and dried, it still tends to sublime forming the di, and mono AP on other crystals, those tend to become large crystals. As three days passed, I did see alot of crystlas 2mm across, and even a few crystals thats 4mm across. If its a newly made batch the AP tend to be a loose powder, but it turns into pretty dangerous crystals. Must be careful not to break any of those crystlas, which may cause a detonation.

[bobo]

How big are your piles? I have small piles when I dry AP and often for more than 3 days but never see anything the size you describe.

By the way, is the sublimation of AP and formation of more dangerous crystals due to mainly mono and dimer sublimating or is the TCAP breaking down into these more dangerous molecules?

[Efraim_barkbit]

Trinitrotoluene, How do you distinct the different isomers of AP from each other?
From your post, it seems like you look at the crystal size to get the info. IRC, thats not possible. But maybee that is only a miss in sentance construction or something, and that you actually have a working method?

[Trinitrotoluene]

Seeing from my pile of AP it's approx... 1cm in height, and 4 inches across left on a coffee filter. At first there was 40 grams of dry AP after 4 days in open air, I weighed it again and there's 30 grams. From what I heard about never store AP in a enclosed container it will sublime and recrystalize into the di and mono isomers, and opening the container will cause an explosion, I think the reason why is because those tend to be large crystals, and they are broken. I had reports of people who did an AP synthesis at higher temperature, which in theory is suposed to form more of the less stable di and mono isomers, they tend to get those large crystals.

After my AP synthesis, I tend to get a very fluffy powder, the temperture is kept very low, the percursers are put into the freezer and chilled to -10*C and added the HCl, then back into the freezer. But over time, as stored I see large crystals, I think those are the di and mono isomers seeing on the crystal size, and how AP behaves when left in a jar with a cap.I've also heard reports from other people who stored AP for an extended period of time, over two weeks and reported getting very large crystals. AP is fairly volitile, for that reason that distinct smell given off.

[Efraim_barkbit]

When I synthesize AP, the crystal size depends on the precipitation time.(more acid --> shorter precipitation time)
A synth with cooled precursors, and in a water bath, produced larger crystals than a synth when I used room temperature precursors, and no cooling but with proportionally twice the amount of acid.

The "cooled" synth never got over 15 *C, but the uncooled one got to around 40degrees.
The warmer synth produced a meallike powder, wilst the cold one produced crystals about half the size of sugar crystals.

So with your "crystal size" theory, I should have gotten more of the dimeric form at the low temperature synth, and more trimeric at the high temperature one. Thats the opposite to the other teory you mention.
maybee worth mentioning, the warmer synt was much smaller then the colder one, but I don´t think that matters.

IRC, the explosion hazard if you store AP in jars with screw on lid, comes from AP recrystalising between the threads, and that the friction from unscrewing the lid causes the AP to ignite.

[bobo]

Even as I was comtemplating the use of HMTD as replacement for AP I made an batch of AP with a new bottle of acetone. Temperature jumped immediately, before any acid being present. This scared me a bit because everything was like around 0 degrees when I started and usually mixing acetone and H2O2 doesn't result in ay reaction. One other thing is I used HCl instead of H2SO4, but this was added later and couldn't affect the initial jump.

After a while I got crystals allright but they were mounted to the wall of my vessel. Before, they always had been powder in solution, nice and fine. When I removed the crystals, I saw them be much larger than I was used to see. The meallike powder Efraim_barkbit describes was all the AP I knew, until now.

I have yet to whack the crystals with a hammer to test their instability but I must say I don't like the different batches problem of AP. This may definetely cause me to shift to HMTD for good although only because double salts and DDNP require chemicals that are not available readily...

One different AP related topic: in the synth there are a number of products possible, the dimer resulting from intramolecular rearrangement of a intermediate. According to a publication (Milas, N. A. Golubovitch, A., JACS, 1959, 3361) both dimer and trimer result from a catalyzed intramolecular rearrangement where the concentration of the intermediate leading up to dimer or trimer is kinetically important together with the catalyst. Because the presence of these precursors depends on the availability of H2O2 and acetone, the balance will shift towards dimer as the concentration of H2O2 and acetone becomes lower. What do you think?

[Nevermore]

mixing Acetone and H2O2 causes some heat, with 15% or more H2O2 is very noticeable, being acetone an easy volatile fluid i suggest using pre chilled fluids and mix them slowly possibly in an ice bath. The HCL should be pre chilled too and added only when the temp is low enough.
Leaving the reaction vessel at least at 0°C for 8-12 hours untill all the precipitate has been formed is advisable..when i didn not insure long time chilling i experienced big cristals and bubbles being developed from the fuids that entrapted all the cristal and formed a foamy layer on top..

[Trinitrotoluene]

SWIM had two different piles of AP, it seems like the small pile after a week had passed still haven't found any large crystals. But the largere pile containing 35 grams of AP crystals seem to form within a few days. Perhaps in larger piles there's more crystals, and they tend to sublime more, since there's more crystals present.

[telecard]

It was tatp

[Advisory]

This is madness. AP is something that shouldn't be messed with unless you know 100% what the F**k your doing.

Who in their right mind HAMMERS the Det into the Charge, and does it AT HOME! Jeez! People that have no idea what the hell they're mesing with is who.
No wonder the poor bastard lost fingers and suffered other injuries.

But at the end of the day we all started off somewhere. Unfortunatly his start obviously wasn't too successful. Sympathy goes out to the idiot n00b.

(if this requires editing please say)

_-Advisory-_

[Third_Rail]

I've always figured that if I stay aware and observe all safety rules around HEs and LEs, I'll never have a problem. In a year and a half, I have yet to even have a slight accident other than spilling a few grams of thermite where I didn't want it (on the floor).

So, in my mind, all explosives are super-sensitive, and should be treated thusly; as NBK said, everything that I make will turn me into a pink mist, which I'd rather not be. Whether I be making and using RDX or Hg fulminate as a primary, I observe strict safety procedures such as: everything should be done outside or in a workshop where I have no distractions, nothing should be done on rainy/snowy/windy days, no heat or flame sources while working with LEs or HEs, and treat all HEs like unstable mental patients.

[inverse]

About accidents and AP's instability,
there are a few constants I noted:

-AP can explode if dried over a lamp
reason: AP is highly volatile. AP's vapors may ignite when in contact with a hot body like a lamp
and propagate the detonation to the solid hot mass beneath the lamp.

-AP can explode if stored at ambient temperature for long periods of time
reason: AP is highly volatile. It can sublimate and form very large crystal with a lot of internal stresses. Such crystals may even self crack and detonate. This problem of large crystals is common to many primary explosives.

-AP might (rumors) explode when subject to human heat (fingers..)
reason: heating an organic peroxide in presence of organic contaminants is always a bad idea.


All of this has one constant: HEAT.
AP must never be allowed to heat , never, ever.
Period.

[McGyver]

AP vapor? AP does vaporize, but this process takes weeks.

The lamp would ignite the AP, only because the heat coming from the lamp will heat up the crystals.

[Hang-Man]

Inverse, that was a pretty shitty post. What you said that wasn't wrong, was redundant.
I've made allot of AP recently and it has been amazingly stable and powerfull, shattering copper pipeing and .223 rifle caseings with ease. I use 35% H2O2, ~30% HCl, and ~pure acetone. Chill all reactants and keep it in a salt/ice bath (my most recent batch was kept going outside, in sub-zero temps, it worked the best). I get a slurry in about 3-5 hours, with AP forming in less than one. I have never had AP go off without me wanting it to. The only problem I have with it is getting it really dry. Should I post pics?

[inverse]

Hang-Man,
almost 7 years ago when I made my last batch of AP I developed my own procedure: 10ml 30% H2O2, 7ml pure acetone, 5ml 30% HCl. Everything, including the vessel, is at -25C. H2O2 and Acetone a quickly mixed then, before they start to heat, all of the HCl is added.
The temperature suddenly jumps to 5-10C, so the plastic vessel has to be quickly cooled with water and ice.

After a few seconds the mixture becomes foggy, after a minute it's almost all filled with AP and still liquid. After 3 minutes it has the consistency of a slurry. After 10 minutes the reaction is complete and the mixture won't move anymore unless shaken hard.

Evetrything is washed with clear water 2 times, then filtered and washed 3 more times.
After that water is squeezed out and the fine powder is left dry in open air taking care to do it during winter time. After 3 days the powder is dry.

I'll report some data about stability: AP when stored at -30C is perfectly stable and non-volatile.
A batch of it has been kept at -30C for more than 2 years. After such a long storage, the crystals shape didn't change and it still was a fine powder like the first day.
Its properties didn't change at all, and it still performed as expected.

A different batch, about 0.1 grams, was used to make the following mix:
60% AP
20% KClO3
20% O=C(NH2)2.HNO3 (Urea Nitrate)

this mixture is unstable but shows extreme brisance and sensitivity to spark initiation.
This has been made as a test of an unstable and known-to-beincompatible mix.
This mixture, which was my own idea and was called by me AKN-6040 has been stored for a year at -30C. It showed no signs of decomposition and instability and retained its properties.

10mg of it when initiated by a fast 300mJ spark did punch a hole on a 5mm think glass plate.

it has been quite interesting, but since then I lost most of my interest in chemistry.
Anyway, it has been interesting to find so much people interested on this fascinating subject.

heh, hope this post is less shittier than that one

[Hang-Man]

That post is far less shitty than the last. But how are you keeping things at -30 for 2 years?

[inverse]

I forgot it in a freezer.
how lame...

[blindreeper]

I would imagine low tempertaure freezer would keep it -30 for 2 years. My old freezer on the lowest setting got down to -25 and that was an old 10 year old one, they probably come much lower than that today.

[inverse]

hmm
there's another chance: that my termometer wasn't precise enough at that temperature:\

I'm sure about one thing, tho. Apart from a 3-4 hours blackout each year due to thunderstorms, that freezer worked continuosly.

[Nevermore]

Well, i've been storing explosives in freezer for rather long time, up to 1 year, AP doesn't show any significant change while stored up to -15°C, the same is true for MHN and double salts..
I had tried to store small chunk of jelled NG into freezer for a week and it stored perfectly, but my jello was rather hard.
Even Ng+Nc+MHN stores perfectly in freezer as long as is not pourable or mouldable. I wouldn't risk friction between the cristals....

[AsylumSeaker]

My AP is ussualy a fine powder about as fine as icing sugar. I havn't left any long enough to witness the crystalisation you guys talk about.

I have a question. There are always warnings about AP recrystalising in the threads of jars and detonating when the jar is opened. Has this ever actually happened? I can't imagine it would be so bad if it did. Like one crystal might go off and even if it did the wet submerged ap wouldn't detonate. When I leave the lid on I just shake the liquid around so that any of the stuff in the threads gets wet and doesn't have much chance of detonatimg.

[Blackhawk]

I think the main factor in the whole jar-lid thing is that the AP in the container is dry and sublimes and then re-crytalises in the threads, so if one crystal goes off they all do. I doubt there would be too much of a problem with AP under water as very little would disolve in the water to crystalise out and the majority would be protected from detonation, still it is probably better for there to be no chance at all.

[acid]

We know everything on the sensitivity of AP, but for your easy sysnthesis many people have incidents suffer Fatal Accidents...

I use AP im my detonators for some explosivre, bur its not the best prymary explosive for many main charges... I prefer to use Tetryl detonators but if isnt avaiable for you, remembers the following rules...

1º - Never make DicycloAcetonePeroxide, its most sensible that the TricycloAcotonePeroxide...
2º - Make your AP with diluted HLC, never with H2SO4 because with H2SO4 the temperature will rise and will form Dicyclo Isomers, and your AP will be less powerfull and more sensible, and never leaves the temperature greatter than 10 cº...
3º - The only way to store AP is under water, because other methods are dangerous too, as if you sore in a closed flask you will take your hands off but this chemical is volatile and very sensible cristals will form on the cover and if you open it will BOOOOMMMM... Store in the maximum per 2 weeks..
4º - See the compatibility list of AP before detonate other explosives, but in some cases you will only splater out the main charge with AP explosion, in case of AN, see the blasting cap number needed for all explosives, and if AP cristal are total dryed handle it more carefull too... and remenber, AP dont needs be confined to detonate, 1 gr of AP can take your fingers off...


A beauty and lethal primary explosive...

[Efraim_barkbit]

Acid, What happens with your AP after you store it for two weeks?
I really would like to know that, because a lot of people, especially newbies, keeps
making posts in the AP threads telling me how sensitive their AP becomes after about two weeks, but I have yet to see anyone giving a good explanation about why.

[acid]

According with properties of this explosive, it's total insoluble in water in 300 ºC ou more, and it's the only safe mode to store your AP cristals, but rebember to close the flask, because in first time i didnt close the flask, and 5 days after my cristals my were full of dust, and i know that some component could cause some acident, because When I was to dry the cristal some component undesired and strager could cause SELFDETONATION!!!!!!......
The sensitivity of the explosive are not midified for 2 weeks, and i not advise to do any type of experiences with this explosive... Store only for 2 weeks, and follow the precautions described, and you will be fine...
In my conception, this safe mode to store AP is only util transport is necessary, because you can make easily 100 gr of AP in 4 hrs using Hidrogen peroxide 130 Volumes...
Our ancestor had suffered the consequencias for the experiencias so that we knew what he is right or wrong. It would be Intelligent to make the same experiencias again?

[Guerilla]

Storing AP for any longer periods of time is not advised due to the sublimation and recrystallation of bigger crystals (some on the surface of other crystals) that are more prone to stress.. definitely discussed before.

[Efraim_barkbit]

Yes, I know very well about it´s tendencies to sublimate and recristalize to form bigger crystals, and what consequenses that could lead to, but that is not the point.

Which would be the most sensitive, a batch with two month old AP, with very fine crystal structure, and one day old AP, with a coarse structure?
well, as far as I have understood, the larger crystals will still be more prone to accidental detonation due to various reasons.

But listening to people writing "rules" about not storing AP for more than two weeks, you could get the idea, that the crystal size doesn´t matter, and out of that make the assumption that the AP makes some kind of chemical alteration, to become more sensitive as time passes.

-Ohh what a beautiful bunch of 2mm long AP crystals, glad I made the batch yesterday, so I dont have to worry about them being more sensitive than normal.
-BANG

I would like to believe that there aren´t people as dumb as that, but history has proven othervise too many times. (www.darwinawards.com ,to mention a few)

BTW, acid, you should work on your English if you plan on posting more on this forum.
just a hint from one "foreigner" to another...

[Boomer]

I have stored both dry AP and APAN for over a year (by hiding and forgetting it). It was still useable, with no crystals forming in the container, and only slightly coarser and a little more sensitive, if at all. I even crushed the AP to a finer powder before pressing caps, and nothing happened. Of course the caps were pressed remotely, and the crushing was done in sub-gram-amounts, with protection and a long wooden tool.

A way to store a few grams of dry AP safely is to spread it VERY thin on a paper, and put it in a dustproof cupboard. It will probably not make DDT, and if it does, the thin layer means so little energy per square inch that the board under it stays whole. I kept it for some month this way and noticed no change. There was also little or no sublimation, as there was no noticeable loss, neither crystals deposited anywhere near.

Maybe this is all a question of climate? Or the dimeric form sublimes much faster?

EDIT AsylumSeaker: Maybe this is caused by the crystals being coated with polystyrene, so they cannot sublime so fast. I forgot to mention that the one-year-old APAN contained some diesel also. It was made from some leftover APAN (1:2) and ANFO (6%) roughly in equal amounts. I guess anything covering the AP crystals will make them more storage stable – unless it is incompatible of course.

[AsylumSeaker]

I did an experiment. I dissolved one part polystyrene, nine parts AP into some toluene and let it evporate. I was trying to make a sort of AP plastic explosive. The result was a sort of crumbly chunk of grey crap which spluttered lots when it burned. I hit a small chunk with a brick and it seemed to be quite a bit more unsensitive than usual ap. Took a few hits to set it off.
Anyways, I left a chunk of it in a small jar for like months and it looked exactly the same as it did when i put it in there.
Might be useful to someone.

[Crow]

I haven't been to this site in almost a year, and even then I was still lurking. This is the first time I have used or even seen this new forum format so if I screw up I'm sorry. I have been wanting to make some AP, and I have all the materials to do so. But the only acetone I have access to contains other ingrediants as well. I read in some threads on this site that it is sometimes alright to have other ingrediants in acetone, but it is not recomended. I was wondering if it would be safe/beneficial to use acetone with toluene and methanol in it as well. I have a gallon of the acetone/toluene/methanol substance labled "Fast acting thinner" in a large yellow bottle with a large flamability warning lable on each side.

[Mumble]

I would think that the extra additives may pose a problem. Not exactly a problem of reactivity. A problem of solvation. The extra ingredients would dissove the AP as soon as its formed. Crashing with a good amount of water will flush all out of the solvents.

I still wouldn't do it. AP is sensitive enough as it is. I wouldn't want to find out the hard way that the addition of toluene or methanol make it even more sensitive.

[vulture]

You'd be oxidizing the toluene and methanol instead of making AP.

Distill off the acetone with a rectifier column.

[Crow]

Distill off the acetone with a rectifier column.

What exactly is a rectifier column? I'm pretty certain it would explode if I tried to boil anything, so I'm unsure what to do.

[vulture]

What exactly is a rectifier column? I'm pretty certain it would explode if I tried to boil anything, so I'm unsure what to do.

Thinner exploding when boiling? You've been reading too many cookbooks...

Rectifying = distilling with a fractionating column to separate the fractions with different boiling point.

[nuclearattack]

Four months ago i made 300 gr of ANNM, i placed this charge in a pipe and prepared a detonator to set it off. The detonator was made with 4 gr AP in a copper small pipe. When i was on the det. site i inserted the detonator in the charge but suddenly i noticed the presence of a man 200m far from me. I immediatly extracted the detonator and went home.
Last week i controlled the detonator to see if there were some changes, on first examination i noticed that the copper pipe was oxidized and i immediatly get very scared. I thought the AP was reacting with copper so i dumped the detonator in water and waited some minutes to let the water enter inside the detonator. After this i extracted the wet AP and examinated the inner side of the copper pipe...it was perfectly intact! The AP didn't react with the copper.
Ahh! I took a deep breath! The outer side of the pipe was corroded by the ANNM!
This means that AP is stable in contact with copper and even after 4 mounths!
The bottom of the detonator was sealed with hot glue, i remember the bad experience of cyclonite with AP/Epoxy mix so i decided to examinate also the hot glue. It was perfect just like the copper pipe!
This is a good demonstration that is possible to make safe detonators with AP and that trimeric AP is enough stable to store in copper pipes.
However it is always one of the most sensitive HE and precaution is always needed.

[ProdigyChild]

@nuclearattack: what bad experience with AP/epoxi/cyclonite??
I've once had (tasty; NO2) PETN that ignited withing less than 3 seconds (!) when put a drop of epoxi hardener on it. I blamed it on acid traces, because pure PETN does NOT do that.

Thanks for your report about copper stability. My electric detonators contain some copper - not in direct contact to the AP but I may creep through some pinhole and finally reach the copper :eek:

About AP: I have a batch that is over 7 years old (glass container). I have used up my detonators that have been assembled for 5 years (Straw + storm match + PVC shrink tube). Few loss still reliable, still the same crystal size, still as stable unstable as always.
I can't listen to these warning stories anymore until someone gives an EXPLANATION rather than suspicion. I've blown an estimated number of 50 AP dets and I really wonder, why I haven't experienced any problems with AP.

Yes I DO observe the stuff.
Yes I DO treat it with utmost respect, I clean the threads of the containers with a paintbrush every time.
I avoid pressing or crushing in ANY way and not even touch the dets with my hands when filling!
I DON'T expose it to light.
And I DO minimize the time I (have to) touch the dets directly.

The only problem with AP is that people can produce large amounts easily and forget that it's a primary explosive. What if people made batches of 200g Mercury fulminate or lead azide and treat it like AN??

[SweNMFan]

The outer side of the pipe was corroded by the ANNM!

Both AN and NM react with Cu, as you noticed..

[nuclearattack]

To prodigy child:
Cyclonite meshed AP with epoxy glue, after some days his dog walked on the AP putty and it went off. Not a lot of damage for the dog but a good lesson for everybody! AP reacts with epoxy and becomes very unstable.

To SweaNMfan:
ANNM reacts also with iron or steel? I have a heavy steel pipe that i want to use for LSC confinement. Can NM react with steel or iron making an unstable compound in presence of NG? I want to use my liquid straight dynamite (NG/NM in 60/40 ratio) in this steel pipe and i don't want an incident.

[SweNMFan]

According to this http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/n5740.htm

NM Incompatibilities
Amines, acids, bases, oxidizing materials, metal oxides, aluminum chloride plus organic matter, hexamethylbenzene, hydrocarbons, calcium hypochlorite, potassium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide, calcium hydroxide. Slowly corrodes steel and copper when wet. Nitromethane in the presence of water can react with organic bases to form salts which are explosive when dry.

AN (http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/a6048.htm)

Incompatibilities:
Aluminum, antimony, chromium, copper, iron, lead, magnesium, manganese, nickel, zinc, brass, oil, charcoal, organic material, acetic acid, ammonium chloride, bismuth, cadmium, chlorides, cobalt, phosphorus, potassium and ammonium sulfate, sodium, sodium hypochlorite, sodium perchlorate, sodium-potassium alloy, and sulfure.

Why not a platic bag in the steel pipe..

[Chris The Great]

Acid, What happens with your AP after you store it for two weeks?
I really would like to know that, because a lot of people, especially newbies, keeps
making posts in the AP threads telling me how sensitive their AP becomes after about two weeks, but I have yet to see anyone giving a good explanation about why.

Mine went from flour consistancy crystals to salt sized crystals. After 3 weeks (so, not quite accurate compared to 2 weeks) it was easily set off with a light hammer blow, compared to me being unable to set it off when I first made it (and yes, I was hitting it hard, on metal, etc).

I'm guessing that it's the recrystalization into smaller isomers, but I really don't know for sure as I dissolved the whole thing into acetone/water (I tried to soak it in water but it was dry enough that it couldn't get through the surface tension, so I had to add acetone) because I didn't want it to explode without reason for some unknown reason, and ruin my shop and get the cops on me.

I heard from someone (I cannot remember who) said that after it is recrystalized from acetone by pouring into cold water to lower the solubility it's stability is high again. This may be either from the AP crystalizing in the trimeric isomer, or because the crystals are small again and more stable. I'll try recrystalizing and see if the stability goes back up to what it was when I first made the batch.