good old flash powder

[flash]

I know how flash is made.Well many ways. My Question is if I were to use ALUMINUM POWDER (German dark #500 mesh) or ALUMINUM POWDER (5413 H SUPER) as instead of ALUMINUM POWDER (german black flake #600mesh) as I know I should,would it still work as in boom.
Would buy some just so I would no first hand but if someone has allready tryed and could let
me no I would be very greatfull.

[Bert]

It would be a good idea for you to go read The Forum Rules (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/misc.php?s=&action=faq) before posting. Perhaps if you could check these out,
you might be around a bit longer, and have time to
learn something. A quick check of the Banned For Life! (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=16&daysprune=1000&x=13&y=10) section
would be instructive.

As far as your question- I would have no idea what to tell
you as you haven't stated any of the parameters of
your intended use. The makeup of your flash, the amount
you intend to use and the containment for the charge
would be required to answer your question.

[DBSP]

That was not a very smart first post...

To bad I haven't got any powers in this section;)

It's really not that hard to work your question out anyway, so I'll let try figure it out yourself :D

[knowledgehungry]

Goddam, how hard is it to type correctly? If you are asking us to spoonfeed you information you might as well use proper English:rolleyes:.

[kingspaz]

HED

[nbk2000]

Like a flash in the pan, he was here one moment, and now he's gone. :)

[Jackal919]

Hi all

I just orderd some 5413 Al powder the other day and if I get the time I might to do some test comparing 600 mesh flash and 5413 H Super flash. Stay tuned!

[Bert]

Generally the size of the Al used has to do more with the size of the
salute- The finest, most expensive grades are worth using for very
small applications. For big aerial salutes you can go to coarser, less expensive
grades. And you can substitute cheap 400 mesh atomized Aluminum
for a good percentage in bigger devices too. Using the denser atomized
Aluminum will allow you to get a bigger load into the same volume as well-

[vulture]

1g KMnO4/German dark Al (sample scam method :D) makes quite a bang unconfined.
1g KMnO4/S/400mesh airfloat paint grade Al goes off with a flash and a loud WHOOOSH.
1g KMnO4/65 um Mg is well, insane. Very loud bang with detectable shockwave at 10m distance. :eek:

[Bert]

You know what happens to those mixes in the presence of
water, of course!

Note: in commercial practice, you try to use the LEAST reactive
chemical or metal grade that will provide the desired effect,
as you are likely to be having tons of the stuff on hand.
For fun in your back yard, you can push the envelope.

Commercial fireworks don't use Permanganate, pure Magnesium
is banned from consumer (Class "c", UN 1.4G) fireworks in the US.

It's an easily available oxidizer, and easy to get a big bang with
less than ideal metal powder sizes. But I won't work with it as
my products need to be storable-

Magnesium IS used for display fireworks (Class "B", UN 1.3G)
BUT we coat it, either with polymerizing oils or Dichromate to
protect it from reaction with the mixes. Failure to do so is not
good for your insurance premium. Pure Magnesium flash doesn't
store well.

Have fun, but be careful. Most people who work with Permanganate
have an accidental ignition story to tell...

[vulture]

Have fun, but be careful. Most people who work with Permanganate
have an accidental ignition story to tell...

It's certainly not safe to store it, however, carbonates will improve storage stability.
Fortunately, I do not have an accidental ignition story to tell. I do however have an experience which was a narrow escape, when I noticed that acetone started boiling off a KMnO4/Al/S mix due to it heating up spontaneously :eek:
I'm still looking for an explanation why it heats up when one adds acetone.

And ofcourse the irony, I've been waiting 30mins for a KMnO4/glycerin mix to ignite. Guess what. It didn't work.

That's what makes this hobby so dangerous.

[Crazy Swede]

Vulture, I had a similar incident when I was a kid (not implying that you are a kid!) :)
I moistened a mixture of black powder, magnesium and iodine crystals with acetone. The mixture quickly heated up and ignited in the same second I tried to dispose it in the kitchen zink. I have always believed that the iodine etched the magnesium in some kind of Gringard type of reaction. Could it be something similar in your case?

Or is it just that the acetone dissolves some sulphur which brings it in more intimate contact with the permanganate?

I suddenly feel some Deja Vu... Have we disussed this before?

[Third_Rail]

Originally posted by vulture
1g KMnO4/65 um Mg is well, insane. Very loud bang with detectable shockwave at 10m distance. :eek:
That's very impressive, but isn't a mixture like that quite sensitive to shock/friction/even looking at it wrong?

I think that I'll stick with my Mg/KClO4 or Al/KClO4 flash though; it seems plenty powerful.

[vulture]

Well, I never really tested the sensitivity, but I guess it will be very sensitive to electrostatic discharge.

Contact with moisture/acids should be avoided at all costs.

[chemoleo]

Interesting... wtr to vultures and crazy swedes story, I got another one to tell.... a long time ago (when I was a kid), I mixed NaClO3, Sulphur, KMnO4, iron powder and sugar in calculated (stoichiometric) but arbitrary proportions... From this I made fast burning sticks by mixing this with a trichloroethylene solution saturated with polystyrene - i.e. this mixture produced a paste that, once the trichlo evaporated, formed rock-hard sticks. After storing this outside for a few days I noticed a strong chlorine smell...and for fear of an autocatalytic reaction I moved this away from the house(which proved to be a wise decision!). the following day, after some exposure to sunlight within a bucket (which was unintended!), it ignited spontaneously and nearly burned my dad who was working nearby... taught me a lesson or two!! So be warned...
(am still wondering tho how this could happen... i.e. the mixture was dry, so I don't see why chlorine gas should evolve?!?)

[knowledgehungry]

Whenever you mix that many chemicals together your bound to get lots of reactions happening, the more chemicals mixed the more likely some of them wont get along. That was by no means a scientific answer but it is the way things work.

[metal dragon]

Originally posted by vulture
when I noticed that acetone started boiling off a KMnO4/Al/S mix due to it heating up spontaneously :eek:
I'm still looking for an explanation why it heats up when one adds acetone.

I may be wrong but I think I have a possible explanation. When the acetone was added it turned the KMnO4 into liquid there for making react with the Al to produce a lot of heat. SWIM once had an experience similar; SWIM placed KMnO4 and sulphur into aluminium can add some water it instantly got hotter as the more KMnO4 dissolved. This may be the reason.
I hope this helps

[vulture]

You dissolved it in WATER, I dissolved it in ACETONE. That's a hell of a difference for ionic compounds like KMnO4. Furthermore, the Al will also react with water.

Never use water on flashpowders.

[Bert]

Chemoleo-

I think this has some bearing on at least YOUR accidental ignition-

(from MSDS for trichloroethylene)

INCOMPATIBLE MATERIALS:Incompatible with strong caustics, alkalis, oxidizers and chemically active metals (i.e.: barium, lithium, etc.).May react violently with aluminum, barium, nitrogen tetraoxide, lithium, magnesium, liquid oxygen,potassium hydroxide,Potassium Permanganate, sodium hydroxide or titanium. Reacts with water under heatand pressure to form hydrochloric acid.

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:Nhds_H1A3UUJ:www.boc.com/gases/pdf/msds/G217.pdf+Chemical%2Breaction%2Bpermanganate%2Btric hloroethylene+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 (http://)

[NOx]

Maybe there is some (very little) water in your acetone?
When I evaporate some on a glass plate there is always some .Maybe this is condensed air moisture because the evaporating acetone gets cold.

[Jackal919]

Originally posted by Jackal919
Hi all

I just orderd some 5413 Al powder the other day and if I get the time I might to do a test scomparing 600 mesh flash and 5413 H Super flash. Stay tuned! According to my test, 5413 Al flash is not much more powerful than 600 mesh flash. So I concluded that if you want to make good Al flash you should use 600 mesh Al powder, but if you want stronger flash you might as well use Mg

[chemoleo]

Now, Bert, this is very interesting, thanks - you solved a decade-old mystery :)
Just wondered then - what do you think what products would be produced upon mixing Trichloroethylene with KMnO4? apart from Cl2? I think I will test these two compounds by itself. without any of the other crap.... silly me always assumed that trichloro is very unreactive, but I was very wrong it seems. if it reacts with NaOH or Al, for instance, I am sure some nice products would evolve.... comments?

[vulture]

SWIM placed KMnO4 and sulphur into aluminium can add some water it instantly got hotter as the more KMnO4 dissolved.

Sorry to post this again, but I just realized how stupid this was.

Never add water to mixtures containing sulfur in combination with KClO3/KMnO4! The sulfur will be gradually oxidized to sulfuric acid, thereby either forming ClO2/Mn2O7 which will spontaneously ignite your mixture!

I'm surprised that you didn't find this warning on the forum, since it has been said many, many times.

[Bert]

SWIM placed KMnO4 and sulphur into aluminum can add
some water it instantly got hotter
Never add water to mixtures of Permanganate and Aluminum unless you
WANT to start a fire. It's one of the classic things to do with Permanganate.
Mix it with Al powder and put a little water on the mix. Smoke, followed by
fire... Back when chemistry kits were more fun this was a common
demo.

[nzrockets]

here is a video 70% sodium nitrate and 30% magnesium powder/curls
http://www.angelfire.com/punk4/nzrockets/sn.WMV


matt

[Bert]

That's an illumination mix, or photo flash. It fried your ccd,
and I'm sure it fried your eye balls too-

Did you contain it or was it a pile of powder ignited in open air?

[nzrockets]

it was just wrapped in a bit of paper and a bit of tape
what do you mean it fried my ccd , is it bad for my camera to take movies of stuff like that ?
it wasn't as bright as they video shows

[Bert]

I meant it overdrove the chip in your camera.
I doubt it damaged it. Were you seeing green spots
after you lit that (if you weren't watching through your
viwfinder).

[nzrockets]

ok thats good to know
i didn't see any green spots but then again the camera made it look better than it was,
i hope to do some more tests but this time confined in thick wall paper tubes

[NoltaiR]

I haven't been on here in a while but it seems that although I haven't seen much of vulture in a long time, he has racked up a high number of posts and seems to 'grandfather' the other posters. Nice to see you back on the forum!

Secondly, guy that made the video, its a nice show and for your own pride, never admit that a demonstration was less great due to the camera. Always say that is was at least as good ;)

[static_firefly]

Originally posted by chemoleo
I mixed NaClO3, Sulphur, KMnO4, iron powder and sugar in calculated (stoichiometric) but arbitrary proportions... After storing this outside for a few days I noticed a strong chlorine smell...and for fear of an autocatalytic reaction I moved this away from the house(which proved to be a wise decision!). the following day, after some exposure to sunlight within a bucket (which was unintended!), it ignited spontaneously and nearly burned my dad who was working nearby... taught me a lesson or two!! So be warned...
(am still wondering tho how this could happen... i.e. the mixture was dry, so I don't see why chlorine gas should evolve?!?)

It wouldnt by any chance been as a result of mixing Sodium chlorate with sulphur would it? Thats all i can think of.

[blindreeper]

chemoleo, I want to know how you calculated NaClO3, Sulphur, KMnO4, iron powder and sugar burning? Seems one of those things that have too many reactants to list. Like BP there is a bit of everything in there so it is impossible to calculate.

[grammarless]

Like nzrockets I made some illumination mix, mine was 60% KNO3 and 40% Mg filings. For the filings I filed a magnesium fire starter block with a file. here is the video (http://www.angelfire.com/moon/grammarless/flash.wmv)

[Sparky]

Grammarless, the sodium ion has an important role in the light output of the 'illumination mix' that Bert was talking about. Hence the KNO3 version isn't really the same and gives significantly less light. It's still pretty bright though. It's easy to tell the difference since the sodium one looks quite yellow rather than bright white. I have dreamed of making 50/50 magnesium/sodium nitrate flare mix and testing it out. It is quite bright as a flare - that is to say compressed into a tube. As a loose powder for a quick blinding flash I didn't find it that blinding (I was dreaming about flashbangs). A photoflash powder I found in Military and Civilian Pyrotechnics seems better. That's not to say the following formula is necessarily all that good. I suppose there is a reason why it is no longer used as a photoflash powder, though I can only guess why.

"FORMULA 44
Projectile Ground-Burst Simulator
Magnesium 34
Aluminum 26
Potassium Perchlorate 40
This mixture, Photoflash Powder, Type I, Class A, was used
start of W. W. II for M46 Photoflash Bombsbutis now relegated
small items such as the MI 15 Projectile Ground-Burst Simulator
which the flash and sound follow a pyrotechnic whistle."

[Bert]

I have dreamed of making 50/50 magnesium/sodium nitrate flare mix and testing it out. It is quite bright as a flare - that is to say compressed into a tube.

For a flare, try about 65-70% NaNO3 +30% Mg. The hot Sodium in the flame
is what's going to make the most light- You want as much as possible. Best to
have coarse Mg and a thin walled case that burns away easily.

For strong white stars, try 50% KClO4, 50% pyro Aluminum and an additional
6% of gum arabic and 1/2% of guar gum. Damp with water and cut large, 3/4"
to 1" for 4" mines or shells. This WILL fry your eyes-

[chemoleo]

blindreeper, what I meant is that I mixed oxidant and reducant in stoichiometric amounts, i.e. NaClO3 with sugar, KMnO4 with Fe, etc etc (But this at arbitrary proportions, i.e 30% NaClO3+sugar, 20%Fe+KMnO4, etc etc) But I think Bert sorted the question out, it must have been the trichloroethylene that caused the spontaneous ignition.
Nonetheless, I am still amazed as to why this would happen, as I always thought oxidoreductions of this kind would only take place in aqueous media... i.e. where ions float around freely. Now, in the case of trichloroethylene, this is not the case. Also, I wondered what kind of products one would get, i.e. if you reacted Al with trichloro, what would happen to the latter??
However, this may be too chemistry orientated for most... so ignore this if it is... :)

[Crazy Swede]

When it comes to getting as much light output as possible from a sodium nitrate/magnesium system you can sometimes add up to 60% Mg until the efficiency of the flare starts to drop. This comes from the fact that the extra magnesium, that can't be oxidized in the flame, will continue to burn with the atmospheric oxygen. Flares of this type tend to be quite sparky though!

The particle shape and surface area of your magnesium also effects how much you can add before you overload the system and the illiminating efficiency starts to drop. To me, atomized magnesium seems to be best choice when trying to optimize the candela per gram and second.

[Bert]

Crazy Swede-

Have you checked military illumination mixes?
The ones I've seen are all Sodium heavy.

BTW, are you on PML under a different handle?

[Crazy Swede]

I'm from the the industry!
Amongst other things, we've produced thousands of hand and parachute flares for the military!

PML?

[Bert]

PML = Pyrotechnics Mailing List.
If you haven't seen it, you might
want to check it out.

Regarding what will make the brightest
illuminating mix, I've got the information
on light output from Pyrotechnics (both by
McLain and by Hardt) in front of me now.
And you're correct. The highest outputs shown
are from 39% NaNO3 Oxidizer in one, and
30% in the other. They've gone even higher
on metal and lower on Oxidizer than you
suggest. I think I read them backwards-

You righ, I wrong! But then it's your business,
apparently. Mine's display, and you don't generaly
want to blind the audience...

[Crazy Swede]

I haven't joined the Pyrotechnic Mailing List since it's been somewhat unclear to me what it is. How does the mailing list work? Can you choose to only get information regarding a narrow pyrotechnic subject?

[Bert]

crazy swede-

PML is a mailing list. You can choose to get everything posted
e-mailed to you, either piecemeal as it is sent in or in a daily digest
format.

Or you can just go to the site and read/search the posts.

They don't offer any filtering services in which posts to forward
as far as I know.

Everyone from total noobs to professional manufacturers and
display companies are on. It's an international list- but posts in
English language only.

IMO it's slightly better thatn rec.pyrotechnics in that they discourage
off topic and flaming posts.