Erythritol Tetranitrate

[Alexires]

So the R-OH acts as the nucleophile with the H+ being a leaving group?

Also, a correction for above. I have changed the PETN in my post above to ETN.

[ginkgo]

Hi, just read through the whole thread, its very interesting stuff so I went and synthesised my own ETN! Trouble now is, I am too scared to make a primary, so am lost as to how to detonate it without using a blasting cap.

I was thinking earlier, would using guncotton crammed into a pipe about 1/4 inch in diameter and about 3-4 inches in length be sufficient to detonate 5g of ETN?

I'm going to start with 5g of ETN, but want to proceed to detonating larger amounts when I feel more confident with it. Do you think larger amounts could be detonated with guncotton as mentioned above? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[DetaDude]

Ginko:

My only advice on this would be to try it and see what happens, but protect yourself from the flying pieces of pipe.. After all thats what is known in chemistry as EXPERIMENTING!

If indeed it does not work UTFSE and learn something about primaries , Use your head and THINK, it might just save your life some day.

[Alexires]

DetaDude - Funny that you would break a rule by double posting to tell someone to UTSFE.

I allowed this post because it was in decent English and we all start somewhere.

ginkgo - Congratulations on your first ETN batch. Like all HE, as long as you respect it, you will probably keep all your digits.

As DetaDude so ungraciously said, give it a go yourself and see what happens. You might even be able to press it into a cap and have it go off from just putting black powder on top of it and crimping it closed with a fuse in there.

Experiment and get back to us on it. We like weights (in grams) and pictures (just good enough size/resolution so that we know what we are looking at without taking up too much space).

[ginkgo]

You might even be able to press it into a cap and have it go off from just putting black powder on top of it and crimping it closed with a fuse in there.

Thanks for the advice Alexires, I will definately give it a go and see what happens. I'll post the pictures up as soon as I have done it. If it doesn't work then I am going to give HMTD a go, although in all honesty, I wouldn't really like to.

And Detadude, I did UTFSE primaries, I am not that stupid to go and post things here without researching!

Anyways, fingers crossed (and hopefully intact) it detonates with guncotton or BP.

[Lewis]

You may find your pipe bomb overshadowing the power of your 5g charge somewhat.

It's not a method I'd recommend. I'd take an AP cap over such a device. Still, as long as you have cover you should be okay. HMTD will probably be rewarding for you.

If you're dead set against primaries from the get go, then go the extra mile and work on an exploding bridge wire system. (you'll be the better man for it :p)

Primaries are always something that is a little scary. This is a healthy attitude to have towards them. Still, there ARE ways to do these things safely, and most of us here still get our hands dirty with primaries, so you aren't the only one who has these issues.

[Rbick]

Still, there ARE ways to do these things safely, and most of us here still get our hands dirty with primaries, so you aren't the only one who has these issues.

Amen to that. Primaries scare the shit out of me. One of the many great things about ETN is the fact that you need hardly any primary to detonate it. Estimations put PETN about 1/3 less sensitive than ETN. This makes it more sensitive than other secondary explosives, but not so much as to cause concern if you respect it. Usually when making blasting caps, I use a small tad of HMTD and the rest ETN. When I say a "tad", I mean about .1-.2g of HMTD and anywhere from 1-10g of ETN depending on the intended secondary charge.

So while primaries suck to deal with, at least with ETN you don't need to deal with them too much. This actually holds true for almost any secondary explosive if you know what you're doing. Your goal should ALWAYS be to use as little primary as possible. I actually get shivers when I watch the youtube videos of kids detonating 500+ g of AP. Just asking for another "phone" incident. Ugh...

[ginkgo]

You may find your pipe bomb overshadowing the power of your 5g charge somewhat.

Yes I thought about that, so might try and use a bigger charge of ETN to compensate, and see what result I get.

If you're dead set against primaries from the get go, then go the extra mile and work on an exploding bridge wire system. (you'll be the better man for it :p)

I did think about using an exploding bridge wire system, but had to retract this idea as my bank balance isn't looking too good to be able to afford all that complex circuitry! :(

Rbick - You have given me some hope when it comes to using HMTD as such minute amounts are not too bad to deal with.

The problem however is that my ETN has not been recrystallised. Its very very difficult for me to find acetone or 95% ethanol. (I did think about distilling some cheap vodka, but once again the cost of the distilling apparatus was a bit too much for me!)

Has anyone by chance made a batch of ETN and then recrystallised only half the batch and left the other half alone? Was there any noticeable difference in performance? And also was there the need to use more HMTD to set it off if it wasn't recrystallised?

Thanks for the help guys.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

Has anyone by chance made a batch of ETN and then recrystallised only half the batch and left the other half alone? Was there any noticeable difference in performance? And also was there the need to use more HMTD to set it off if it wasn't recrystallised?

Thanks for the help guys.

If it isn't pure it will always have lower power, shorter shelf life, and increased instability. Unrecrystallized ETN is certainly capable of detonating, and doing a decent job too, but it just doesn't compare to recrystallized ETN.

[Rbick]

Rbick - You have given me some hope when it comes to using HMTD as such minute amounts are not too bad to deal with.


Glad I could be of some help. When you're making primaries, especially peroxides such as HMTD, stick with making 4-5g batches MAX. That's my rule anyway and it does depend on what you plan on doing. For instance, when I detonated a 500 mL bottle of PLX I used a blasting cap of 2g HMTD and 20g ETN for a booster whereas I usually use less than a gram on most of my charges. So feel free to make your own guidelines if that is still uncomfortable for you.

With recrystallization, Hinckley has great points. Also, not only will you completely eliminate residual acid if done properly, but you will also be able to achieve a higher density with the crystal structure. Density plays a HUGE role in the performance of an explosive, more-so than people think.

I have a batch of ETN sitting in my closet that I've had for over a year. I didn't recrystallize it for two reasons; I was lazy and I wanted to see how long it would last. I did however soak it in bi-carb for a few hours prior to washing it thoroughly. After testing the pH, I stored it. It hasn't decomposed a bit and still looks good. It also does an excellent job in my detonators, although as previously mentioned, I don't achieve as high a density as I do with recrystallized product.

[ginkgo]

Rbick - You say density plays a HUGE role. How huge? From your experiments using recyrstallised product and unrecrystallised product, how much of a difference would you say you see in percentage terms?

This info would be very useful for me as, if there is a huge difference, then I am going to beg to everyone person I see on the street to find me some 95% ethanol! Why are getting simple chemicals like ethanol soo difficult for me! Its a little annoying to be honest!