Toxic Industrial Materials (TIMs)

[MrSamosa]

I read a Department of Justice PDF file the other day, or at least part of it: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/pubs-sum/184449.htm

The part that interested me most was the section on "Toxic Industrial Materials"... basically, ghetto chemical weapons. Examples of these "TIMs" would be Chloropicrin, Dimethyl Sulfate, Chloroacetone, Phosgene, Cyanogen Chloride, TEPP, or even straight Sulfuric Acid. The logic behind these, though, is that they are readily attainable while also very toxic (though not on the same level as the true "Chemical Agents"). The fear is that they will be used in massive quantities, thus negating their low toxicity.

Keep in mind, Aum Shinrikyo used very deadly Sarin on several occasions. In the gassing at Matsumoto, they used 90 lbs, if I recall correctly... However, the disperser malfunctioned and the wind changed, so the end result was that the attack only caused mild symptoms (although a few dogs were killed). In their most famous subway attack, only 12 people were killed while a few thousand others suffered moderate Cholinesterase inhibition. This goes to show that it takes much more than high toxicity for an effective attack- and for poorly funded groups, effectiveness in a chemical attack is extremely difficult. Therefore, it would not make sense for them to bother making Sarin or VX if they cannot disperse it properly.

This is where TIMs come in... The chemicals are cheap and readily available. They could release massive quantities of say, Sulfuric Acid or Hydrogen Chloride, possibly turning all of a downtown area into a "hot zone"- think of all the railway accidents involving chemical cargos. Even if the chemical is of mild toxicity, the sheer volume with which it would be used could cause greater casualties than Aum's Sarin in the Subway. It's quantity, not quality that counts in this case
:D .

[zeocrash]

i believe when i first joined i mentioned parathion as a improvised chemical agent.
it is the ideal TIM, a neurotoxin, highly toxic, used as an insecticide so can be obtained from a public supplier. also mutogenic and carcinogenic and reasoably persistant
admitedly it's restricted sale, but if you're determined enough you could easily find a way around this.

[redbull]

Calcium Hypocholrate(36%) + HCl %28 would yeild elemental chlorine.
This can be used in a binary device. The reaction procedes quite
rapidly when mixed. The corrosive nature of the acid can help in making
membrane delays/timers. Since Chlorine is unbearable in the smallest
of quantites a terrorist could empty out a large area quickly and cheaply.
Direct lethality would be low. Casualties would be from people stampeding
or if people were forcibly confined... say in a subway car and couldnt get out.
However, the real value of this device is in the horror and panic it causes
among the population.


Fast Facts

Chlorine will bond to water making Hydrochloric acid. The eyes will be
attacked by this agent.

Chlorine was the first chemical ever used in war.

Chlorine exposure causes pulminary edema.

[zeocrash]

for a start it's calcium hypochlorite with an i
secondly chlorine is a piss poor chemical weapon. there is a reason that no one uses it now days, it's not just a fashion thing
thirdly chlorine is far fom unbearable in the smallest quantities. many a time have i gone into the college chemistry lab and smelt chlorine in the air, without any symptoms.
fourthly i believe chlorine disolves in water to make chlorine solution, but will react with water vapour to form hcl
fithly chlorine would not empty out large areas, most people would just assume it was someone nearby using bleach.

your ideas might make more sense if you substituted bromoacetone for chlorine. but bromoacetone isn't really a tim afaik

[megalomania]

I disagree, zeocrash. I think chlorine would be a highly effective panic weapon in many situations. Imagine if it was released indoors, or in the confines of narrow streets say in a parade. It is certainly cheap, just a big jug of pool hypochlorite and some muriatic acid, and all this is well within the reach of even the dumbest kewl. Setting this up to be delivered may take some fancy apparatus since it would be quite obvious if one were lugging this around.

Perhaps the chlorine could be laced with some sort of smelly agent? Something to disguise the chlorine odor with either something unfamiliar, or something pleasant.

Heres a scenearo: the perpetrator could place long plastic troughs filled with hypochlorite granuals underneath some bleachers before a local highschool football game. Plastic jugs of acid could be corked and a string would lead to the end of the row. The perpetrator would walk up the stairs, pull the string at the end of the row and keep on walking. The crowd would be gassed and panic would ensue. In the same way the ingrediants could be placed inside a storm drain or in a sewer directly under a manhole (obviously the night before). Connect the corked liquid to a string to empty it out and only one good pull is needed. The string could be run a good distance to provide the puller some cover, who would notice some string on the ground?

This would be more of a nusience weapon, but I guarantee the first time it happens it will gather national attention. I am suprised someone has not done this already.

[WTF]

A comment on the Aum Shinrikyo Sarin attacks, they estimated they would kill > 10000 people (don't quote me on that) in the attacks and killed 12. They also tried to kill people with anthrax,
and they had a proper delivery system and all.
No one noticed.
The strain of anthrax they used was a vetrinarian strain, and therefore was used to vaccinate animals, not kill them.
This all proves that biological/chemical terrorism is much harder than it looks, even if you have all the money you need.vetrinarian

[nbk2000]

Slap a linear SC onto a RR tanker car (or two or three) full of methyl isocyanate on it's way to a plastic factory.

Set it off by RC when it passes upwind of a crowded urban center.

Watch as hundreds die in an american bhopal. :)

For more mundane things, simple tear gas mixed in with smoke would get the herd to stampeding. Launching tear gas grenades into a crowded concert (think Ozfest) with a crowd number 100,000+ would result in dozens or hundreds killed by trampling/crushing, plus many hundreds injured.

The tear gas wouldn't kill anyone, the mindless herd mentality would be the real killer.

[redbull]

This device HAS BEEN TESTED, IT IS EFFECTIVE.
This gas was used in World War I for a reason.
If you doubt its effectiveness I strongly reccomend
you test it for youself. Reagents are available at any
pool store. Mix 1 / 1 by volume. This reaction will
generate heat and will foam up. That is actually a
great quality because it will continue to off gas after foaming
everywhere. If you perform this test be sure to wear a full face
respirator. Chlorine has a tremendous and immediate effect
on the lungs, throat and eyes. You have absoutley NO idea
how dangerous this device is confined. If anyone here is too
lazy to actually perform the reaction just read the accounts
of WW I infantrymen. I challenge any board member who
can be trusted to report the results of an actual lab test to
the group.

[Mick]

pound for pound, chlorine gas is a piss poor chem agent.

think about it, how much would you need to gas out a movie cinema to the point where everybody has trouble breathing....an absolute shite load.

as mega said, good for panic value, not much else.

don't forget, if you were to release anykind of gas inside a shopping center, underground transport tunnel etc etc you'd have to disable the air conditioning - no point releasing massive ammounts of gas if its just going to be sucked out by some jumbo sized fan.



the simplist of ways to do a chem attack is to make use off the "sheep factor".
as NBK said, just throw some tear gas into a crowd..shout out "Anthrax..." or something along those lines and watch everybody run.

[Kid Orgo]

I believe that Cl2 is heavier than air. Therefore, placing a Cl2 generator in an area lower than your target would probably not be so bright.

[MrSamosa]

Redbull- I thank you for your responses, but I must correct you on some things... Chlorine is not nearly as dangerous as you make it out to be. I have generated it dozens and dozens of times before and gasses myself with it dozens and dozens of times. I am still alive, and I have no breathing problems whatsoever. Indeed, it is very unpleasant to be gassed with Chlorine- it is extremely irritating to the upper respiratory system and the eyes, and as such would be a great panic weapon. But, if the goal is mass casualties, that simply is not something Chlorine will obtain in small amounts. When the Germans released Chlorine at Ypres in 1917, they used thousands of tons of the stuff- now, who has access to that much Chlorine? Of course, they were gassing several miles of trenches...

In a confined area, I imagine Chlorine could be very effective. It would throw everyone into freak-out mode from the pain of it, and that would be enough to cause the stampede. You are right- Chlorine should not be completely disregarded, even if it is referred to in the Anarchist Crapbook, if only for teh reason that it is so cheap. And yes, it is listed in the DOJ PDF file as a "TIM" and a potential terrorist scary weapon.

BTW- Chlorine was NOT the first chemical weapon- but just the first one used very effectively. I believe the Spartans used Sulfur Dioxide against the Athenians and that in WW1, France used some irritating agent (Benzyl Bromide? Don't remember which) in shells a few months before the mass gassing at Ypres.

[nbk2000]

Not exactly TIM, but lead-based vomiting agents are ridiciously powerful, and the needed organo-lead compound fairly simple to make.

Get a few pounds of that vaporized upwind of a major event, wait till people start gasping, then start broadcasting over local radio stations (pirate radio) your recorded message about "The Goatherders Army of Islam has just released Sarin gas upwind of the Great Satans debauchery! May all heathens burn in the firey pits of damnation! Allah Ackbar!"

Once people start wheezing, drooling, and puking, and hear this middle-eastern sounding voice coming over the radio saying "Sarin"...the stampede is on!

The important thing isn't the toxicity of the agent, but rather the novelty of the attack, the situation in which it was used, and the exploitation of panic to maximum effect.

If 100 people out 400 can be trampled to death in a nightclub dire, imagine what getting 100,000 people in a panic in a crowded arena would do. Assuming even a tenth of the nightclub fire ratio, that'b be 2,500..equal to 9/11...only better!

See, with 9/11, there were no intact bodies for the media to show. They were all crushed/burned/non-existant. But an arena full of bodies would be a very powerful image to show to the world, similar to the pictures of piles of jew corpses in the camps, inspiring terror in all who saw it.

Any group that did this would be feared beyond Al-Queada. Such images bring to mind the ghosts of Nazi Genocide, Stalinist Purges, and Pol-Pot's killing fields.

No matter how dramatic the scene of flying airliners into buildings was, it lacks any human dimension, because it's just objects as far at the viewer can tell. IT HAS TO BE PERSONAL! Joe Schmoe in Mulecreek, Arkansas and Dustbin, Texas has to be able to visulaze HIS death by your hands, and not be able to rationalize it away as "Well, that only happens in big cities"

You start wasting big crowds in places no one has ever heard of, they can't do that anymore, making it possible (in their minds) for it to happen to them. And THAT makes them terrified.

[megalomania]

Ahh, a brilliant strategy nbk. What could the government possibly do to protect every gathering at every little sporting event accross the country? Attacking small towns has just as much effect as going after a big city without the bother of the big security. Why go after the superbowl when you can hit a big highschool game? It would be more terrifying to the people because they know they would be powerless to stop it.

[FireFly]

Chlorine gas is some interesting stuff, simply because it can be used as a chemical warfare agent, and it can be readily made by any fool with an IQ of 50. I have seen "someone" use it to gas a mouse, hamster, and cat as an experiment. The mouse and hamster were both executed with the agent, both showing the same symptoms. Before the rodents took their last breath, they went into "convulsions," if you will. Breathing was extremely hard, as they were panting for breath, their nose ran and the mucus caked up and dried on their face. It took what I am guessing a whopping 10 minutes before the mouse died from the agent and 15 minutes for the hamster, as Mega stated, lacing the agent with some sort of a "smell good substance" would be ideal, if you wanted the attack to end in death, as it would take much longer for a human to cease from the gassing. The experiment with the cat did not end in death, as I did not want to see my beloved cat die, but rather see the effects on a larger animal. The cat was gassed for probably 5 minutes, the cats symptoms were similar to that of the mouse and hamster, convulsions, difficulty breathing, et cetra. The cat walked off after the gassing, sat down and began coughing, the cats eyes and head bobbed about (kind of like when I get really fucked up). Symptoms ceased within 30 minutes of exposure. All in all I find that Cl would be a great agent as it is so damn cheap and easy to create for a "large scale, mouse and hamster annihilation!"
;)

[redbull]

Mr Samosa -

Yes I agree that Chlorine is not a lethal weapon like soman or sarin.
Inhalation is mostly irritating (see previous quotes) :

"
a terrorist could empty out a large area quickly and cheaply.

Direct lethality would be low.

Casualties would be from people stampeding or if people were
forcibly confined... say in a subway car and couldnt get out.
However, the real value of this device is in the horror and panic
it causes among the population.
"

Thats all I claimed for Chlorine but that still a LOT. I agree with
Megalomania, Im really suprised someone has not released a
low budget chemical agent. NBK is also 100% on target. For an
attack to be successful the agent in question need not cause any
direct deaths. Just make everyone think it is / was a lethal agent.
The comparison to the nightclub fire is right on target. The American
newsmedia LOVES showing dead bodies. 9/11 hysteria will repeat
itself. Americans will have their rights eroded all over again.

[Chade]

I'd describe getting a face full of chlorine as feeling roughly equivalent to being drop-kicked in the back of the throat. (electrolysis experiment gone wrong) That was about a jar full in an enclosed environment. (and about 10 years ago) If you can get the gas to hit someone quickly it causes quite a shock. It hits you hard in the back of the throat and the eyes.

Not very nice, but about on a par with the time I got a face full of SO2. That had more of an effect on my eyes. I guess it must have been the equivalent of peeling a hell of a lot of onions all at once. Maybe lighting raw sulphur (what caused my accident) would be a ready method of generating another 'nasty' gas, that would cause panic.

[MrSamosa]

If someone feels pain in the back of their throat, in their eyes, and on their upper respiratory tract, they don't stop to think, "Am I being gassed with a lethal agent, or something painful but non-lethal?" They don't care- they just want it to stop. With this in mind, it therefore doesn't matter if someone uses Chlorine or Chloropicrin or CS. All will cause pain, but just not in the same proportions. However, then we take into account the cost. One can easily churn out kilograms of Chlorine for pennies, while Kilograms of CS may cost a bit more (although be far more effective- ideal for the large crowds NBK is talking about).

In fact, we can even drift away from the idea of simple irritation and stampedes. As was stated earlier, the media LOVES showing bodies and horrific wounds. This is where Dimethyl Sulfate can come in. This can be produced for pennies as well. It causes very nasty burns to the skin (basically, Sulfuric Acid is released on and below the surface of the skin..), and also kidney damage (since Methanol is released on contact). Effects would be delayed by several hours.

On the note of SO2, let me go back to the Spartans' use of the stuff. The way they released it was by putting pitch onto blocks of wood, covering the pitch with sulfur, and then lighting the blocks. This could be further modernized, of course, by making some pyrotechnic mixture of the sort, and releasing the smoke from cans or some other trendy container.

[Chade]

This should be quite a possibility if you know of a store that sells industrial sized bage of sulphur for agriculture. (like 50KG) A stack of them on some plinths painted with pitch could sit under a spectator stand without being particularly suspicious. If you used a very simple incendiary fuse there'd be almost no way to trace its manufacture other than finding out where the sulphur was sold, and I reckon you could come up with a way around that problem.
At its simplest, you could use that method that serial arsonist in America used, where you strap a match onto a lit cigarette in a folded sheet of paper. The cigarette burns down til it ignites the match, which sets the paper burning.
Bags of sulphur are fairly commonly used, and won't arouse the same suspicion as something more potent. Afterwards, the whole thing may just be put down to an accident of someone storing Sulphur in the wrong place. It may even be attributed to a discarded cigarette from the stands.

Can anyone think of anything else that easy? I can't think of much else that could be substituted, whilst looking so innocent. Perhaps a flammable chlorine containing plastic could liberate chlorine when burnt. I've also heard some furniture foams and fillers give off chlorine when burnt, which is a major problem in some warehouse fires.

[zeocrash]

heating nitromors paint stripper (DCM) will yield phosgene IIRC, which kinda speaks for its self.
it' seems very simple to make, but unlike the burning sacks of sulphur it, cant be disguised as an accident. unless someone just happened to leave a tin of boiling DCM around :P

[Tuatara]

Some years back some university students pulled off a stunt involving a 44 gallon drum, some dry ice and a "Cyanide" sticker. Managed to empty one end of Aucklands city centre. No harm done, but lots of panic.:D

Two chemicals that haven't been mentioned so far are ammonia (very nasty to get a face full) and hydrogen sulphide (lethal in fairly low concentrations). Both are very easy to come by and disperse.

[nbk2000]

As I was walking to work today, I had occasion to pass a parked train, and noticed several tanker cars of interest. One was Ammonium Bifluoride, and the other anhydrous HF gas (yes, gas), and both were full (knocked on them).

Imagine a 35,000 gallon tanker car of HF gas being vented in a city. :) I wonder if there'd be any bodies left...I'd imagine the ammonium bifluoride (which will dissolve glass) isn't much healthier. A large diameter EFP mounted on an overpass that the tanker would pass under would be great for this, because the penetrator would zip through the top and bottom of the tanker, allowing the tanker to vent/drain very rapidly, before anyone could possibly respond in time to stop it.

As for public panic induction, you probably wouldn't even need any chemicals whatsoever (though it'd help), just a good recording. Imagine if an automated recording came on during rush hour in a crowded tube station saying:
(Emergency Broadcast System tone)
[synthesized voice]
This is an alert! Chemical agent Sarin detected! Evacuate the station!
[/synthesized voice]
(repeat REALLY LOUD and continuously)

Whip up something that uses a voice recording IC, program it with a computer synthesised voice with the tone thrown in, and plug it into the PA system somewhere on a timer. Watch with glee as the teeming herd of sheeple come pouring out of the station gasping/wheezing/twitching from both fear-induced shakes and psychosomatic (SP?) symptoms of "nerve gas" poisoning.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were fatalities...not from trampling (though you'd have those too)...but from fear-induced heart attacks and such. It'd likely be several days before the government would declare it "safe" and that there was no CW agent used, but the damage to the publics mind would remain and the fear would spread, because one could use PSYOP's by starting a rumor that the "terrorists" used an "undetectable soviet-era CW" and that the government is denying its use to avoid panicking the public.

Always use the believable lie instead of the unbelievable truth. After all, everyone "knows" that the Soviets were into making such things, and hasn't the government been going on and on about terrorists having "Weapons of Mass Destruction"? What better publicity could you get than the governments own words being broadcast day and night everyday on TV saying this is so? :D

[MrSamosa]

NBK - I love your way of thinking, it is always creative, fresh, and cynical :D. Alas, the placebo effect works both ways. One can think nothing is wrong and feel fine, or they can think something is terribly wrong and feel accordingly. Perhaps for added effect, one could even use some mild OP insecticide, so that the CW detectors scream, "Nerve Agent!" (as was discussed in another thread- i believe about breaking down insecticides).

Hmm...train loads of HF and NH4FHF :D . Seems so open to a Lawrence of Arabia style attack- a few KGs of ANNM or ANFO should be enough to burst the whole tank- thus immediately dispersing a lethal cloud of HF. A similar roadside device could be used against tractor trailers.

What about trainloads of chlorinated industrial solvents- such as Chloroform? If one were able to burst the tanks, and ignite it, it would be possible to release a massive cloud of Phosgene. And on the note of Phosgene, someone brought up boiling DCM. A much easier way is to combine DCM with Petrol and just ignite it, thus creating a device comparable to the Sulfur/Pitch logs.

There are lots of goodies to look on the railroads, as they are the primary means of mass shipment to all sorts of factories and such. The best way of locating such goodies is first to find what they are used in, and then locate such a factory that would use it. I believe the most interesting chemicals would be shipped to pesticide and plastic factories.

[pyromaniac_guy]

Originally posted by WTF
A comment on the Aum Shinrikyo Sarin attacks, they estimated they would kill > 10000 people (don't quote me on that) in the attacks and killed 12. They also tried to kill people with anthrax,
and they had a proper delivery system and all.
No one noticed.
The strain of anthrax they used was a vetrinarian strain, and therefore was used to vaccinate animals, not kill them.
This all proves that biological/chemical terrorism is much harder than it looks, even if you have all the money you need.vetrinarian

the dismal performance of the Aum Shinrikyo attacks have always amused me. You would think for a group that spent reportedly million, possibly as much as 10 million$ on the production of sarin, that they could come up with a better delivery system than poking holes in plastic bags full of nerve agent. Hell, an improvided delivery system that consisted of the spray nozzle from a bottle of windex and a nitrogen tank from a paintball gun could probably be tossed together in a few hours for under 100$

[knowledgehungry]

I wonder what the Media would do if they just saw this thread. It scares me to a certain extent, I mean if one of the GoatHerders read this... These ideas are so simple, and more frightening than 9/11 in my mind. I'm sorry that I have no pertinent information, I just felt the need to compliment all involved on your simple yet previously unheard of ideas. Good job, and now I'm off to ride somewhere in a subway... Wish me luck;) I'm not in the mood to get gassed by some terrorists today.

[MrSamosa]

You would think for a group that spent reportedly million, possibly as much as 10 million$ on the production of sarin, that they could come up with a better delivery system than poking holes in plastic bags full of nerve agent.

In fact, Aum did work on a more complicated delivery system, which they tried to use on several occasions (Matsumoto being the most notable). But the problem was that the device kept malfunctioning- in the case of Matsumoto, they tried to release the Sarin but the device released a fog of HCl instead. In another case, there was a leak and the operator was exposed to some Sarin (although he had some Atropine pills on hand).

The choice to use the Plastic Bags and umbrella tips was a result of frustration - the chief Aum Chemist decided to implement a fool-proof dispersion system. After all, March 20 was supposed to be the day of their great Coup d'Etat, complete with air raids on the Presidential Compound and Parliament (although they later dropped this idea in favor of Gas).

[A-BOMB]

Well I can think of one really bad chem CLF3 (I think) my father was just at a plant that makes it for IC manufacture. He said It was one of the most dangerous chemicals in existance. They did a demo for him they took a 1ml of it and put it on a turkey samwich that they had over from lunch a few seconds later is blew to a million bits. This could be just my dads BS again. But you never know.

[knowledgehungry]

I'm not sure how that compound could exist, barring that it is ionic or has a strange bonding where it gets more than an octet. But if such a chem existed it would oxidize everything it touched, including a turkey sandwich.

[Sarevok]

Originally posted by knowledgehungry
I'm not sure how that compound could exist
It does exist. Not only chlorine trifluoride, but there are other chlorine flourides.

Occupational Safety and Health Guideline for Chlorine Trifluoride (http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/chlorinetrifluoride/recognition.html)

I'm sure this compound can be put to good use.

[MrSamosa]

I was talking to a volunteer fire fighter the other day, and she was telling me about some of her training. So I brought up the subject of emergency response to such terrorist attacks (as she brought up Ricin- and how her fire chief claimed to have made some in his bath tub - not a smart idea eh??). Anyhow, the point is she said that a 2 mile radius can be cleared in 30 minutes.

I remember in Baltimore a few years ago, a train carrying HCl derailed and the area near the Raven's Stadium had to be evacuated. This is the kind of accident fire fighters train for- derailments, isolating areas, etc. Therefore, this is what would have to be avoided for someone attacking trains.

Time is essential, as always. The direction of the winds must be considered, because that is going to be the primary means of dispersal over a large area. A large cloud of some toxic Industrial Material is worthless if it is not spread about- and simple diffusion will not do it fast enough- it will give the bunny-suited buffoons enough time to evacuate the area.

Instead, I imagine such an attack taking place as follows: a train is commandeered somehow, upwind of the target area (ideally, some large city center where most people get around on foot or bicycle), large explosive charges are placed on the chemical tanks, and then set off. Large charges must be used so that the whole tank bursts- not just a little hole venting the stuff. A large scale dispersion must take place immediately so as to take advantage of the 30 minute time window.

[vulture]

Masking Cl2 with a pleasant smell won't work. There's a reason why water is being sterilized with O3 or Cl2: They do not only kill germs, but also oxidize any smelly/tasty stuff that's in the water.

[Wydarr]

In case you are interested, I can dig some of the materials I had in the army about predicting the contamination area for chemical attacks. Also if you are interested I have simmilar tables and charts for predicting radiological and biological contamination.

[Chade]

I'm interested, although I could probably get hold of the radiological data myself if I hunted around a bit. Is that data looking at the maximum area that could be affected, for the purposes of evacuation, or the minimum area you could be sure of taking out if you wanted to use such a weapon? Does it take into account contributing factors like wind and surface features such as buildings? As rough data it could be handy, but I'm guessing you'd need more sophisticated models for a better assessment.

I understand there's a general feeling here on the forum of 'post or do not post, there is no 'try''.

[MrSamosa]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/NAJL10603.htm

The news for today: train crash in South Carolina releases a scary cloud of Chlorine Gas, forcing the evacuation of a 2 mile radius and a lock-down in the surrounding areas. Casualty counts are 4 killed and at least 100 injured. It is worth pointing out that this was an accident. Imagine a commandeered train-load of Chlorine being blown up by heavy bombs, rather than just a mere "Chemical Spill."

As we know, Chemical Weapons are weapons of terror, and that is their greatest advantage. This was pointed out time and time again in this thread. Even if the attack causes very few casualties, look at the reaction: states of emergencies, the residents ordered to take shelter from a toxic cloud, moon-suited men and flashing strobelights all around, and on top of it all the knowledge that for a few hundred dollars the incident could be repeated anywhere.

If the casualty counts are high enough, the name and date of the attack will live in infamy. Also, the shock of these lung-damaging agents goes a long way; an unsuspecting person taking a full whiff can immediately lose consciousness. In this case, I am thinking of mass gassings of downtown areas.

Also worth mentioning, I was talking to another Volunteer Fire Fighter recently, and again the subject of Chemical Attacks came up. I said to him, "Another firefighter said that a 2-mile radius can be evacuated in 30 minutes." His response was, "Haha, they're dreaming."

[nbk2000]

I've got a clipping that says the CDC estimates that, if a tanker car of chlorine catastrophically ruptured in optimal conditions in a major metropolitian area, that 100 people per second would die from the resulting cloud sweeping the streets. :)