Molten AP

[Cyclonite]

I was doing some molten AP experiments in a very small quantity and I found that molten AP doesnt deflagrate, it detonates. I the amount I used was about half a pea by volume. It detonated with a force that was a little more than expected, without confinement. I was thinking a slow heating to detonation in confinement would yield more "power", its not really practical but its an idea to play with.

[bobo]

What temperature was the AP at the moment of detonation? Did it detonate by itself (or rather the heat) or did you actuate the detonation? How did you heat it? How much AP was it?

This post made me think of melting powdered AP and then putting it inside the cap to make it more dense (but not in a large quantity). I have been thinking of 'sintering' AP to increase crystal size already. Would this be a good idea?

[Kriegsminister]

You'd rather want your crystalls to be small. The crystalls themselves would be dense but the large spaces between the crystalls would rather reduce the density. These large crystalls are also more easily broken (when pressing for example) and I guess you don't want that to happen.

I don't know why people always try to melt AP. It's dangerous and a waste of time. Experimenting with molten AP might be interesting but using molten AP for blasting caps is suicidal. The difference in density between molten and well pressed AP is negligible. AP is a sensitive explosive and you would not try to hit it with a hammer either. Neither would you try to melt another primary explosive. Pressing the AP is a lot safer, faster and easier. There shouldn't be any great differences in performance.

[DBSP]

Increasing the crystal size is not a good idea when it comes to AP, large crystals may detonate from being snapped of. The smaller the crystals are the less sensitive they get, and that is what you want. At least with AP which is really sensitive even when the crystal size is very small.

[nbk2000]

Anthony has had success with casting AP using a hot water bath. Others have tried melting AP using a flame, and invariably get an explosion for their efforts.

If your container is clean, your AP acid-free, and you don't try boiling it, then it can be done reasonably safe. A cast AP detonator would have maximum detonation velocity possible because of the lack of any air gaps in the crystal matrix.

It should also be safer to press because there would be no "give" when pressing anything else on top of it as the AP would be one solid crystal.

[FireFly]

I have some HE tip rounds by melting AP then pouring the liquid into hollow-point rounds (.22 Mag. cal.), then sealing with some clay, super glue, and a piece of tape. I've been to afraid to test them, for fear they may explode while still in the gun. I could easily find another way to pull the trigger while I am safe behind a wall, but this would be a waste of a good gun if they were to blow apart the barrel, though I doubt such a small amount would amount to much more than perhaps, damage to the inside. Cyclonite, have you or perhaps anyone else tried something like this with AP? I would like to make something like this for a .30-06 for deer season.

[DBSP]

Well I wouldn't like having a 30-06 round racing through the barrel with AP inside the bullet. Smells like suicide. The bullet gets red hot from the friction inside the barrel and might very well ignite the AP. The case might be a bit different with a 22LR or a 22WM. BUT I wouldn't trust it in a high powered rifle

And why on earth would you like to shoot a deer with a exploding bullet??? The point is kinda that you should be able to keep the meat afterwords and eating it without having to run the meat through a metal detector before eating it, well whats left of the deer anyway.

[Nevermore]

well i definitely agree, looks stupid and is stupid.
i wouldn't care so much about hot bullet but about the powder deflagration and also the bullet primer, if the ap doesn't go on simpaty maybe it will since the enormour acceleration of the bullet..and you will end with a blown or damaged barrel..

to get back on topic, before melting Ap i would think about the costs/advantages:
what do i get better from molten Ap? better VoD, is that a good idea to get better VoD if for doing it i have to dangerously work with a dangerous compound?
If the answer is yes, go for it, if the answer is not..well is my case.

[bobo]

What about less sensitive explosives? You would need an explosive to detonate on impact.

I find it an interesting idea, if only to try out with a gas powered pistol. You can readily buy gas pistols legally in many countries. If it is possible to shoot a HE bullet with enough force to detonate on for example a metal plate, this would make an interesting toy.

[Nevermore]

uhm as you know those airgun comes out in small calibers, mainly 4.5mm, few 5mm, some 5.5mm and not so many 6.5mm..
also they usually use small ammo that are double conical shape and empty on the inside to be light, made of soft lead..i don't see how could you store HE inside them, even if you find a way, how much do you think you can shoot? the pellet should be very light, you cannot overweight it...
the small caliper doesn't help, you should made a cilinder shape of the HE to store enough in front of the bullet, and how do you plan not to let it touch the barrel rifling while shooting?
if you can fix those small problems, then, it could be a good idea..

[FireFly]

Perhaps the HE tip idea would be more practial if the AP was still wet, and thus less sensitive, or perhaps a more stable primary, MEKP perhaps.

To get back on topic, I remember reading somewhere, where someone was doing different blasting cap tests. One test was a delay initiator (sp) using AP, the AP was in powder form until the cap began to heat up from burning BP in an outside casing, and thus turning the AP into a liquid, running down a chamber in the blasting cap, and forming into a large soild chunk and being initated by a reaction or from a touch explosive. (Something like NI3, exploding, thus making the AP deflagrate). This would be impractical, even if you get a better VoD, why not just use something better. One reason why this could be better, is it would be safer to carry small amounts of AP at a time over one big chunk, but messing with NI3 would make the cap even more sensitive, so perhaps some sort of a chemical reaction would be ideal. I wish I could find where I found this information, so I could post it, but my memory fails me all to often.

[Cyclonite]

The amount was around .1g or less. Im in a terrible place to experiment so I really dont have any more info. I agree with the fact that its not a safe thing to do by any means but interesting

[DBSP]

Nevermore, I'd definately be worried about having AP in a piece of metal which is read hot, wouldn't you?

And the thing about the AP going off by sympathetic detonation (if that is what you mean) from the SP deflagrating I wouldn't worry about that. The AP is well protected inside the bullet.

It might however detonate from the enormous acceleration though. Thing is don't put AP in a bullet fired from a high power rifle.

There is a pdf on the FTP which describes some testing of putting AP in the tip of remington yellow jacket hyper velocity .22LR rounds.

[Nevermore]

I WOULD be worried to shoot something that has AP inside it! Because could get red hot but even because it will be subject to acceleration..I don't think is safe to try those things with an unstable compound like Ap. But if was thinking about an explosive ammo for .38 bullets ( i don't know if will work or not anyway here is my idea (hoping i didn't steal someone else's)): Starting from a lead SWC bulled, i would make a small hole on the tip (around 2mm in diameter) that goes down the axis of the bullet stopping 4-5mm before the bottom, that hole is enlarged to fit a magnum small pistol primer, the primer should be seated not so deep, but that at least 1/3 of the primer is showing off the bullet tip.
When the bullet hits the target it first hit with the primer that deflagrates and the deflagration gases will apply pressure on the small 2mm canal inside the bullet, so stressing the lead and giving more chances of expanding the bullet.
I never tried due to law regulations over here, but it would be interesting to try..anyway i don't know if is useful in Usa, you have access to hydrashok bullets...here hp are forbidden...

beside that, i wonder if more stable compound than Ap could be used as HE in bullets...22lr should be ideal candidate, slow enough, not getting hot, easy to get, not much acceleration, but the small hole makes a poor storage capacity..i've to pass out over that, i've no really idea how to store He inside a .22lr bullet...

[nbk2000]

Loading explosives in bullets doesn't have any real effect, compared to a similar caliber bullet (only in hollowpoint), until it reaches .50 caliber or larger.

So why risk damage to you or your rifle?

[bobo]

Originally posted by Nevermore
uhm as you know those airgun comes out in small calibers, mainly 4.5mm, few 5mm, some 5.5mm and not so many 6.5mm..
also they usually use small ammo that are double conical shape and empty on the inside to be light, made of soft lead..i don't see how could you store HE inside them, even if you find a way, how much do you think you can shoot? the pellet should be very light, you cannot overweight it...
the small caliper doesn't help, you should made a cilinder shape of the HE to store enough in front of the bullet, and how do you plan not to let it touch the barrel rifling while shooting?
if you can fix those small problems, then, it could be a good idea..

I was thinking of a converted brocock airgun, they would be easy to modify according to some articles I read a time ago. I do not have a gun so cannot tell by myself. It is a BB and pellet gun but is should be able to fire home made ammo.

[zaibatsu]

This is very OT, but I'll explain. I've got a brocock specialist, nice it is too, but not cheap. You have a brass "cartridge" case, that is filled with compressed air via a pump or diving cylinder. After filling up, you place a pellet in the head of the cartridge and screw the head back on. The bore size is 4.5mm - 5.5mm, and the frames are so designed as to break should much backwards force act upon them AKA firing anything remotely recoilling in them. IF you want something that can handle forces, check out the old Saxby and Palmer air pistols, and try retro-fitting a brocock cylinder in them.

[McGyver]

My idea anyone want to try this out?
HE .177 ammunition (http://llc.arvixe.com/pics/HEpellet.jpg)

edit: On another thought how much AP would this be .05g? Which would do nothing:(

Maybe making pellets by melting lead into a block of wood would be a better way to make a HE pellet that can hold more AP...

[Ansgar]

Long time ago a friend and I tried using AP in a .22 longrifle projectile that I drilled up myself. The first few shots we were a little nervous but it turned out to work just fine (in that caliber anyway) and quite reliably - depending though how hard you seal the tip of the projectile.

The projectile was drilled slowly in a special holder made to center drill and provide a large grip surface around the lower projectile/upper case. Drilling was cooled with alcohol and drill scraps frequently removed as they tend to stick to the drill and jam if they get too long.
The drill was 2.2 mm and drilled down to leave a minimum of about 2 mm wall in the bottom of the projectile.

Now as NBK mentions there is no really spectacular effect like the target exploding into peaces. But there is the distinct effect that the amount of AP is sufficient to rupture the projectile into small fragments. And this is initiated (depending on the hardness of the seal) already when the projectile passes trhough a piece of thin cardboard - like from the back of a paperblock. The largest (heaviest) fragment always being the bottom of the projectile.

We usually sealed it with a tiny amount of epoxy ontop with one layer of paper (painted red for the looks) between the AP and epoxy. A softer seal, needing less 'actuation' to initiate the AP would be wax but we didn't like that as it wasn't as mechanical stable for magazines or elevated storagetemperatures like in the window of a car parked in the sun etc.

If the AP should explode in the barrel I don't think it would be dangerous in any way. We fired many (at least 100)of these modified bullets, someone probably exploded in the barrel without we ever knowing about it. I think the pressure would just leave forward and perhaps squeezing the lead a little towards the barrel wall. Though it wouldn't be good when using a silencer.

Though remember, all this is for the .22 lr caliber. I have never tried it with larger jacketed calibers and don't think I will either.

Stay great.

[Unknown]

As far as melting AP, I wouldn't recommend it. Heating AP by any method is just crazy.You would probably be better off casting the AP with some NC or wax, although I've never tried the wax. The NC/AP, NC/HMTD works very well.

Ansgar, I can assure you that none of those rounds went off in the barrel. I tried to fire an AP loaded pellet from my crossman .22 cal air rifle. I had loaded the pellet into the wider portion that opens up before the end of the barrel (approx. 1 1/2 in. back from the muzzle). The setback caused by the air slamming the pellet caused it to detonate. The end of the barrel looked like a peeled bananna.

[McGyver]

What kind of pellets did you use? Maybe the pellet exploded because the AP was loose, did you pack the AP?

This would be a good pellet to load AP into hollowpoint (http://pyramydair.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/pellet.pl?pellet_id=237)

[Jacks Complete]

At the risk of re-opening this topic by dragging it back to almost ON topic:-

If you can grow a sizable crystal of AP, then you could take one large crystal, and use that.
You would get the maximum possible power out, det. velocity, etc. and you wouldn't need to worry about packing or anything.

Just don't break it!

[Desmikes]

I don't know about other countries but here they sell "Porohovie" (in rus) i.e "black powder" rounds. These are desined do fit inside a barrel and not to explode unless they slam into something. As far as demolition goes, they are worthless and the accuracy is pathetic. They do however make a lot of noise and produce considerable (viewable) amounts of fire. I am not sure which explosive they use (the name is obviously deceiving) but they are conicly shaped and have a coper ring that rests far back and compresses explosive on contact with surface, they come in plastic and lead versions. So go look for some before going through the trouble of making them. The one thing that would be more fun as far as wxplosive projectiles go would be an arrow (for a bow) tipped with epindorf tube (1.5 ml medical containers that you can get thousands of) filled with AP. But unless you are absolutely sure that the tube is sitting very tightly on the arrow, don't use it b/c initial acceleration might set the thing off.

[simply RED]

Melting AP is the stupidest thing from them all.
Its more stupid than trying to make VX at home.

[xyz]

The palestinian suicide bombers manage to successfully melt AP most of the time. I think they use a hot water bath.

But they know that they are going to blow themselves up at a later date anyway.

[Some Guy]

Is it a known fact that the Palestinians are melting their AP or is everyone just going off of the waronline site? Personally, I fell that melting 5kg of AP would reduce the number of Palestinian "chemists" to zero in a number of months. A few Jewish papers say that Hamas has developed (as if its difficult) a way to produce and mold AP, but I don't know if this is within their capabilities. Does anyone know for sure?

[xyz]

I have heard that they melt it to increase density/VoD and therefore destructive capability.

Like I said, they would use a hot water bath to heat it. The water is 100°C, AP melts at 91°C, and it goes off at about 120°C. Because the water is cooler than the detonation temp of AP, theoretically it shouldn't go off, but in practice, molten AP is a hell of alot more sensitive than normal AP crystals and far more prone to accidental detonations. They know they only have a week to live anyway.

[bobo]

I find it strange to use AP for main charge because AN should be easily available. If you have AN you can at least make APAN for medium sized explosions. Likely the detonators are AP though.

Probably, the media people just are clueless about the explosive manufacture.

[McGyver]

You think the government is going to let the media say on the news "...the explosive that detonated was 2kg of Acetone Peroxide..." They rarly mention anything related to how and what the explosive was.

[Cyclonite]

You cant compare AP to VX, if you melt and cast it remotely or in small amounts its no big deal. Its not safe, but certainly less hazardous in a waterbath. I will admit I would never melt more than 1g for fear of my own life and limb.

[Cyclonite]

I was using a hot water bath to melt AP into a 2" section of brass piping. I did this remotely and It worked, but my question is the water turned blue and the cap spewed up some AP...why? I thought It was going to blow but it didn't......Other than that it worked great, I was able to achieve a very high density without a press. All I did was boil some water pour it into a plastic cup and set the cap in after it cooled to about 95C.

[Myrol]

Some days ago i tried it also to melt some AP. I used a Test Tube filled with 0,2g AP and a Waterboiler as a heating source. But after some time the AP starts to vaporize out of the Tube and forms only a tiny puddle of molten AP, 40% are gone! Im sure it was not Dimeric AP because i made my AP ever around 10°C. But melting 5kilos AP trough a Palestinan is REALLY a suicidal act unfortunately its that what they want :mad:

[Myrol]

I had an Idea about melting and casting AP at relatively "safe" Temperature! The 50/50 mix of AP and MEKP is a uniform liquid at 25°C, right? BUT a mix of 25% MEKP and 75% AP should be solid at standard Temperatures but liquid at probably 50°C! Thats worth to try, because crystal-density AP has a much better performance as the fluffy Product! Lowering the Temperature should be also good to prevent vaporizing off and losing worthful AP! I have enough AP and MEKP but not (more) enough time! One week and i can manage it ;) ;)