Acetone Peroxide/Aluminium

[Mr. Yuck]

I've noticed that the addition of Aluminium to Acetone Peroxide has improved it's performance significantly. In the below link, you can see what I have done with 20g of 5% AP/AL. *Was detonated by a 1/2g AP cap. The blast was rather impressive for the size of the charge, which was a half filled beef jerky container. You will notice the flash. 20g of straight Acetone peroxide would have detonated with some smoke and a bang the would sound similar to a high powered rifle, with no flame or flash. I realize that this composition is very Oxygen deficient, being that acetone peroxide is alreadly lacking Oxygen. This charge had no problem borrowing the nessisary O2 from the Atmosphere. It could even be balanced with something like NH4NO3. I question the stability of a composition of adding a slighly acidic salt to AP in the presence of Al.

http://www.angelfire.com/pro/mr.yuck/AP_Al20gweb.wmv

Here is what I have posted on my website about this. Includes a summary of what happens in the next video.
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/mr.yuck/apal.htm

Next I have done test on small amount of each AP, and AP/Al. You'll notice the result is quite that of the oppisite as the 20g charge above. I believe the AP/Al detonated, but that is questionable. The AP/Al has NO FLAME and seems to be much quicker. On the contrary, the AP has a nice ball of fire. The AP/Al has only a quick, almost silent, "fizzing" sound. In the video, ( http://www.angelfire.com/pro/mr.yuck/apaltests.wmv ).

Shot #1

-1gram of AP. Nice fireball, and a brief "whoof". No detonation.

Shot #2

-2grams of AP. /Al. A quick, flameless, "brisancefull" detonation. The powder seemed to instantly disappear with a small puff of smoke.

Shot #3

-Same thing as Shot #2, but with a bit more.

Shot #4

-3grams of plain AP. Bigger fireball than #1, but no detonation.

Shot #5

-3grams of AP/Al. This was a close-up, showing the detonation in better detail.

A friend of mine, (Blindreeper), brought it up that when he put a piece of paper on a small pile of AP, it has a loud BANG!, it detonated...

I still think that the AP/Al detonated because such a small amount of any primary explosive that is detonated WITHOUT CONFINEMENT, wouldn't make a noticable bang. These small amount haven't reached the thresehold where they provide enough confinement under they're own weight. I realized that these are not low explosives and and do not rely on compression to make a successfull deflagration with report. They are infact HEs, that do not require confiment. But they are primaries, in low densities, and they do not achieve a high VOD at all. In fact, these tests probably resulted in somewhere between deflagration and detonation.

I conclude that with larger amounts, AP/Al will cosiderably more velocity upon detonation as compared to plain AP.

[knowledgehungry]

I dont know why AP/Al would improve things at all, I dont even understand how Al could get oxidized in that comp:confused: . AP/AN/Al would be good indeed IMHO. Very high energy in Joules.

[Mr. Yuck]

For one, it is a lot hotter and faster in my opinon; it is better for detonators. Almost works like a thermobaric bomb. And if your going to use Acetone peroxide, you might as well use Acetone Peroxide/Aluminium given the advantages. AP/AN/Al works very well, I used 80%AN,15%AP, and 5% AL. It sounded very similar to AN/Al. The APANAL had no flash or flame. I suspect all of the Al was consumed and reacted.

The Aluminium was oxidized by atmospheric O2. This is very similar to a Zinc/Sulfur reaction where there is no oxidizer in the comp. RDX uses atmospheric oxygen initially when it detonates.

[knowledgehungry]

I know that it would use atmospheric O2 but i thought taht the AP would use it all up first, obviously not.

[DBSP]

Why don't you try putting a plastic bag with gasoline ontop of an APAl charge. Would be nice to see if it's hot enugh to ignite the gasoline, straight AP isn't.

[Guerilla]

The Aluminium was oxidized by atmospheric O2. This is very similar to a Zinc/Sulfur reaction where there is no oxidizer in the comp.
Well not quite so, Zn/S is a redox mix where sulfur acts as an oxidizer and zinc as a fuel.

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Mr. Yuck
RDX uses atmospheric oxygen initially when it detonates.

So RDX won't detonate underwater?

Adding metal powders to an explosive raise the heat of detonation, and the gas volume so you get more "heaving" power. However, IIRC the VoD is lowered, reducing brisancy.

[anthracis]

In the past I've made a few small shaped charges, using about 1.5-3g of AP or HMTD (gently pressed inside plastic caps taken from mechanical pencils)...I've realised that HMTD was more effective, such small charges could bore a round hole (about 4mm in diameter) in a steel coin (about 1mm in thickness). I've never mixed the primary with Al, but this could be done.
On the other hand, my guess is that a mixture of HMTD/Al will be more powerful that AP/Al, and I guess it's not less stable. What do you think?

[Anthony]

Don't forget about HMTDs compatibility issue with metals before considering mixing it with metal powders!

[gliper]

As with sulfer zinc mentened before carbon acts as an oxidizer with al (S and C have the same electro negativity of 2.5 and al is lower on that scale than zink). Additionaly 1/2 as many moles of carbon will be needed. Less heat will be made than oxagen oxidizing. finaly Al will pull O away from H2O ext.

Al actualy improves the O deficienty.

[blindreeper]

Would AP not react with aluminium? I have a friend who is 100% sure it will react. I am not sure to believe him so I am asking here. I dream about making detonators with aluminium tubing and I'm sure other members dream about making them aswell. So is it safe?

[me234]

AP and alluminium do not react, I have had a 50g charge of AP/KNO3/Al sitting in my fridge for about a month or so now, so far the mixture has kept very well. Maybe HMTD with Al, in fact most likely HMTD with Al, but Acetone Peroxide seems to have had no effect on the storage of AP as of yet.

[0EZ0]

blindreeper, my only guess would be that this 'friend' of yours had rather unwashed or still wet AP. Both a strong acid (HCl or H2SO4) and a strong oxidiser (H2O2) are used in it's manufacture. It's quite likely that enough corrosive contaminant remained (even after supposed washing) with the AP after manufacture to attack Al. It would not be the first time that someone has mentioned a similar experience with their AP eating at metal. That or your 'friend' is full of you know what ;).

As is also known, AP is the most widely produced explosive peroxide by young amateurs with little very limited knowledge of proper procedures and safety. It would be no surprise that your friend skimped on a few important steps. Not to say that all the members here who dream it up fall into that category :).

As for Al or other metal tubing for det casings when using AP, stick to paper and plastic. That way if you do have such a misfortune in one of your dreams, then you are not going to wake up screaming from the fragments of Al that have been impregnated into your hands/face/eyes or other part of your body. It is an unnecessary risk to use metal tubing. Don't let the 'professional-look' finish fool you.

Regarding me234's post, I'm not even going to start. You should know better than to store such a mix for ANY length of time! May I advise ALOT of reading/researching for you to do.

[me234]

OEZO, don't worry, I am aware of the danger of storing such an explosive for such a long time, I just haven't found a use for it yet, I will be using it this weekend however. Just so you know, it scares the living shit out of me every time I walk past that fridge, I have been very careful when it comes to that particular pill bottle. Anyway, storing it this long has been interesting in that it was useful to know how well this particular mix kept, It'll also be nice to see if the storage time has had any diminishing effects on the power of the charge. But thank you for your concern.

[deadsexy]

Me234 I think you have a death wish, storing AP for a month, with other chemicals, in a closed bottle, wow. I don't know what you are going to do with it, personally I wouldn't touch it. But since you have to take every safety precaution you know of. Where some really thick gloves like heavy leather ones and a face shield for gods' sake.

I had about 6 grams AP still on the filter from the end of the synth for 3 weeks. I know it wasn't right to do this but I just had no real use for it. It had formed big crystals, it was obviously the dimeric form. The biggest crystals were about 1mm by 1mm. I decided to dispose of it by putting a flash polumna on top of it. The flames from the fuse of the polumna set off the AP before the polumna went off, the AP went straight through the DDT. No fireball at all like normal, it was a very loud bang and threw the polumna closer to me. The AP did quite some damage to the ground below it and I now know never to store AP this long. After witnessing its power unconfined I will now treat it with a whole new respect. As for you, good luck and make sure you read every precaution you should take with an explosive before you make it.

[Third_Rail]

I've actually had a problem with Mg reacting with AP 'slightly', even though the AP was neutralized completely...

[xyz]

You could try coating the Al in an oil or something to make sure it doesn't react.

[metal dragon]

Boil it in parafin wax, or coat it in linseed oil.

[Bert]

Classic treatment for Mg in contact with oxidizers is a drying oil, such as linseed oil or a 50:50 mix of linseed & castor oils. Another even more effective coating used in particular where in contact with ammonium perchlorate ("the other AP!") is dichromate, applied by boiling the Mg powder in a potassium dichromate solution.

[Mr. Yuck]

http://www.angelfire.com/pro/mr.yuck/SC.wmv


That is a small shaped charge containing 6g of AP/AN/Al. It was detonated by one gram of pressed HMTD. I used the explosive itself as the cone. This may sound funny, but I pressed this charge into a Baby Bottle Pop lid of my neise's. This looks like a cone about 1 1/2in. high and 1 1/4in. wide. I made a paper cone to put inside of this cap to create a conical hollow spot in the charge. It was mounted on a flattened split piece of 2 1/2 exhaust pipe. When it detonated, it folded the pipe in half, to about 40*, and blew a 2in.x1 1/2in hole. I will have a picture of the damage shortly. I apologize for the bad footage, my cousin video taped it while I lit it and ran.

[Nihilist_666]

In the AP/AL tests to me it looks like the Al isn't doing anything else than suppressing the flame. The scratch just sounds like Al shooting over the paper and the smoke is just fine dust.

Have you tried a small AP/Al salute on its own?

[Mr. Yuck]

That makes sense but given any confinment it flashes, as in the 1st video; whereas any amount of pure AP in confinement would have no flash, obviously. Also, in several unrecorded tests, I made 2 identical 2gram AP caps, one containing Aluminium, the strait AP cap was far inferior to the other. The tests were done in a shed, on a cardboard box.

[xyz]

Suppressing the flame? What blasphemy do you speak?

Aluminium INCREASES the heat production (or "flame") of explosives, and AP normally detonates with no noticeable heat or flame or flash.

Please have at least some idea what you are talking about before you post things.

[Mr. Yuck]

Here are the pics of the mangled pipe after it experienced my linerless shaped charge.

http://community.webshots.com/album/69396145NJpQUh/1

[Bert]

Mr. Yuck-

Looked at your gallery. Care to take a moment and discuss your black match over in the pyrotechnics section? I don't think there's a thread dedicated to the subject yet. Or if you don't want to start a thread, maybe add it to the new home made fuse thread (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2628&highlight=blackmatch) or some other ignition related thread.

I do think black match should rate it's own "thread" (haha).

BTW, most commercial black match carries a more substantial coating of BP than yours appears to- To the point where it would crack off if rolled as tightly as you have done to yours.