European PE sources

[PETNstudent]

Gone to the electron dustbin.

[bobo]

If you find pentaerythritol in the UK this should be straightforward. Nitric acid is possibly a problem for you as well. If you have to make pentaerythritol then you will need acetaldehyde which is probably also hard to get.

While discussing the matter of PETN, I have been looking at Uncle Fester's (I want to have a few different sources before doing an actual exposive). Is ol' uncle Fester to be taken seriously on this:

' PETN, or pentaerythritol tetranitrate, is considerably more difficult to make than the other explosives considered to this point. Its preparation is not recommended for the casual experimenter, or for those with a clumsy streak in them. Its power and sensitivity is comparable to the other explosives in this book. It is also a crystalline solid, so it offers the same difficulties as nitromannitol in getting it compacted to maximum density for maximum power. If it were not for an extremely powerful and versatile plastique which can be made by mixing PETN with nitroglycerin, it would not be covered in this book.
'

The explosives he refers to are Nitroglycerin and dinitroglycol and nitromannitol. RDX is also covered in the book so basically he states that PETN is in the same order of magnitude for sensitivity as dinitroglycol.

[alhazred]

You can get pentaerythritol from here

http://www.omikron-online.de/cyberchem/home-fr1.htm

They sell pentaerythritol for 27 € / kg.

Problem: The site is in German. But they deliver in countries of the EU.

[bobo]

Did you get anything from them? I tried to buy other stuff there some time ago of categories * and **, but this is what I got:

'
Alle Stoffe, die den sogenannten RID/ADR-Vorschriften für
Gefahrstofftransporte unterliegen und eine UN-Nummer haben (im Wesentlichen
sind das alle Güter, für die der Postversand nicht erlaubt ist) können weder
mit Paketdienst noch mit der Deutschen Post über die Ländergrenzen hinweg
transportiert werden. Die im Inland anwendbaren Kleinmengenregelungen gelten
für den Auslandsversand leider nicht.

Davon betroffen ist/sind die bestellte(n) Chemikalie(n): Kaliumhydroxid,
Ammoniumnitrat, Iod
'

(translation would be basically: we are very sorry but.)

this is a long time ago, but I am sure that iodine (=iod) is a * type of chem as well as is pentaerythritol.

EDIT: well, thinking of it, the problem is not in the * categories but in the UN number which this compound does NOT have. Therefor, you might get it from cyberchem allright. Still I am not sure whether ordering this stuff online is a very bright idea because I cannot think of anything else to do with a kg of PE. I think I read somewhere on this forum that Cyberchem is not that discrete with information to the authorities.

Besides, cyberchem is not exactly cheap and given some trouble I think could get PE elsewhere but the question is of course how suspect it is. I am worried about the drug bust more. Still if they pay you a visit and do not find what they want they may still take your stuff because they do not understand what it is, or arrest you for weapon posession if they find explosives.

That does not withhold me from dreaming of ordering a bag of PE from india or some other country and then redistributing in europe to the good people who use explosives strictly for educational purposes but that would mean my name might be added to a list I don't belong on. If Abdullah would have stayed with his goats in Africa we wouldn't have had to worry but unfortunately my country is also crawling with idiots who'd love to die in the war against the great Satan.

[alhazred]

I ordered a few times chemicals by cyberchem without problems, but I ordered them with a german address. They don´t mention in their standard business conditions that they wont deliver * (like PE) or ** signed chemicals in other EU countries.
I am also worried about the discretion of such chemical shops but it is the only way for me to get chemicals. And since more than 10 years I didn´t got any trouble (but with the whole new anti-terrorism-shit this this may be change some day).

[nbk2000]

Typical newbie....first post is a new topic about something we've discussed a million times already, and would have found the answer to if he'd just bothered to UTFSE first. :rolleyes:

His post should have read like this:

+++++++
Hi, I'm a lazy fucktard who can't be bothered to look for the answers myself, so I'll just bother you people with a typical newbie request for spoonfeeding me the solution.

To make you think I actually know what the fuck I'm talking about, I'm going to copy and paste the entire procedure for making PETN as found on megas site here, so you'll be massively impressed with my elite copy/paste skills and give me the answer.

Once you're suitably impressed, you'll be more than willing to post entire threads worth of sources and processes here in easily digested mind-morsels so my limited intellect can process it. I can't understand sentences of more than 5 words in length (though I can type up paragraphs worth of drivel) so keep it simple for me, OK?

Thanks.
++++++++

[Polverone]

This is still a topic of some interest to would-be makers of PETN, located in Europe or elsewhere. I would be happy to make my own PE from formaldehyde and acetaldehyde. Formaldehyde's OTC in the US; Europeans may have to synthesize it themselves. Acetaldehyde isn't OTC anywhere that I know of.

There are a few routes to acetaldehyde of potential interest to me:
1) Chemical oxidation of ethanol. This is tricky, because the acetaldehyde is easily converted to acetic acid. Most small lab preps use dichromates. Dichromates aren't the cheapest, especially considering their formula weights, and are hazardous to one's health as well.

Scheele first prepared acetaldehyde from H2SO4 and MnO2. MnO2 isn't toxic and is far cheaper than dichromates, and can be found OTC as a ceramic supply. I suspect that MnO2/H2SO4, as well as many other potential methods for oxidizing ethanol, are more difficult to use to prepare a clean product, otherwise the dichromate method wouldn't have found so much favor.

2) Heating of a mixture of calcium formate and calcium acetate. I haven't found any information on yields or exact parameters, unfortunately, but the materials would be easy to obtain in quantity. The salts are produced by acetic acid + CaCO3 or CaO or CaOH, and formic acid + the same. The production of formic acid from glycerol and oxalic acid - both OTC in much of the world - is well known.

3) Dehydrogenation of ethanol in a tube furnace containing finely divided copper. This really seems to be the best method for large-scale production. I was in contact with someone who was using this method in a slightly different context; unfortunately, he disappeared before he could share photos and lessons learned from his final setup. It does require some effort to be devoted to assembling the apparatus. With electrical heating and automatic temperature control, yields are supposed to be very good, and the only feedstock you need is the ethanol itself.

4) Pinacol rearrangement of ethylene glycol to acetaldehyde. Ethylene glycol is heated with dilute H2SO4 to yield acetaldehyde. This is maybe the most exciting possibility of all, since the raw materials are ubiquitous and inexpensive, and no unusual equipment is needed. However, ethylene glycol apparently also produces dioxane when heated with H2SO4. I have been able to confirm from several reliable reference books that acetaldehyde can be produced by the Pinacol rearrangement, but none of them gave exact experimental conditions or yields. The primary references I've learned of so far are quite old and not in English.

I'd love to experiment with some of these methods even though I haven't gleaned everything from the literature yet, but I don't have lab space in my new living quarters. I'm going to have to remedy that situation one of these days.

[PETNstudent]

BeHEDed. :)

[blindreeper]

Ok dude get in your head your NOT special. Stop trying to get spoon fed again!

If i could get some pentaerythritol without arising to much suspicion this would be ideal as i could get nitric acid from the lab. How would i do this without some1 thinking iam Osmar's best mate

Thats what most people want but you don't see every forumite posting about how unfortunate they are. I am desperate from PETN but I don't complain. Find a way don't ask to be spoon fed. Find alternatives like ETN or somthing!
And for fucks sake use proper english none of this "every1" BS and capitalize things that need to be. I shouldn't have to be telling you this after nbk has told you off, that applies to any mod aswell.

Making my own pentaerythritol as Polverone is surgesting seems a good idea but what about contamination? any clean up needed for greater yeilds? and how would this then effect the production of PETN.

Why the fuck should we know or tell you, try it yourself!

[Anath]

Speaking of Erythritol Tetranitrate, have you ordered any Erythritol from (NO naming of sources) yet (NO mentioning of member names in relation to their purchasing of supplies for their "activities")?
I'm thinking of getting a couple of pounds and "redistributing" it locally (Australia) because the shipping on 1 lb is outrageous.

If your interested reply and we can take it to email.

I posted this here as I assumed this thread would get kicked into the water cooler quick smart.

+++++++++++++++++++++

You are very indiscrete in mentioning publicly both the supplier for an explosives precursor by name, and by mentioning a members (by name, again) intention to buy an explosives precursor from said supplier.

This not only endangers a source, but also a member, who may not wish to have his purchasing habits publicly posted for all to see.

If he says it himself, that's his business, but he doesn't need a third party to do it for him. Especially a n00b! :mad:

NBK

+++++++++++++++++++++

Anath: Duly noted, thank you. I'll take it to email.

[nbk2000]

The tube furnace method...this wouldn't have been a bee you were talking to...would it? ;)

Perhaps the pinacol reaction is ran like it is for producing ether? Heat the acid to just above the boiling point of the aldehyde and drip in the glycol below the surface of the acid. The glycol reacts instantly with the hot acid to turn into acetylhyde which boils off with no dwell time to be converted into dioxane.

[Ollie Snowie]

I make very small amounts of ethanal by putting a red hot tangle of nichrome wire, copper wire and platinum wire into a jar with a bit of warm methylated spirits in the bottom. The vapour of ethanal stings your eyes if you leave it uncovered. I catch some of it with a wet tissue over the top which is removed regularly to let air in. I've not made any PE yet though.
I really can't see why the government officials are so worried about restricting chemicals. Obviously, some chemicals are used in drug manufacture and have no substitutes, so they restrict those, but for our purpose there are plenty of things that are readily available to make explosives. There are the orgainc peroxides, AN, nitro-esters and very many others that the precursors for are just simply - easy - to get off the shelves and put together to make the explosive. I suppose they are thinking that things such as PETN are superior to lots of these easy to make explosives so they restrict the precursors, but what difference does it make wheather a building is blown up with tonnes of ANFO or a bit of carefully placed RDX?!? (I know that it would be easier to smuggle the RDX in because it is a smaller quantity than the ANFO), but what difference does it make if some kewl is blown up with his Kg of NI3 or his (unlikely) PETN?!? Do they just want to make people who want to make explosives blow themselves up by restricting the precursors for the less dangerous explosives?!? I really don't see how they're thinking.

[bobo]

well... I dunno where you live but getting PE isn't that hard in mainland europe. But it is doable, we might discuss this topic further if you're hell bent on getting PE.

Getting stuff is difficult if it is not bought by very many ppl. For example, if you wanted to make your own kevlar reinforced leather boots you'd realize that sheets of leather and kevlar must be really dangerous chamicals because it is even harder to get than PE.