APrc lab:improvised lab procedures and chems

[NoltaiR]

And yet another AP topic... Ah well this is a good one.
Anyways I have been out of the explosives business for a few months now (my parents always find out and take it all away) but with a little extra time and chems I proceded to conduct a 'little' AP lab using 1 gallon 3% H2O2 (which is boilded down), 550 mL of acetone, and 30mL of drain cleaner H2SO4.

Half of the AP will be used to make APrc and the other half will be used to make APANrc. AT LEAST one of the tests is going to be an FAE test using APrc within a waterproof container submerged in a half gallon of gasoline.

Both electrical and fuse ignition will be used in the various experiments that I conduct.

I just decided to do this today so the AP is still synthesizing (it has been about 5 hours now) and here is what I have so far.

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/noltair" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/noltair</a>

And yes the page is VERY basic... it is just a status report so don't complain!!! My days of spending hours creating 'pretty' websites are over.

In any case, if any of you have questions/comments/ideas for what I can test the APrc/APANrc with, they are welcome.

[NoltaiR]

As well as my new sig...

[xoo1246]

It will be interesting to see if the gasoline will ignite. I don't think it will.

[a_bab]

Neither do I. It'll be splattered to atoms but not ignited. Maybe if you'll use some (secondary) fire near it, it might work. Or add some Al powder in AP (which is a bad idea since the AP molecule lacks in oxygen)

As for your sig I bet that the mods will have something against it signature (is longer than the post of lots of people here, for God sake)

[nbk2000]

"devEstating" is spelt "devAstating".

As for the sig, the limit is 3 lines or less at whatever screen resolution I happen to be using when I first see it. His is 3 lines so it can stay.

Add some lighter flints to the APrc when you cast it. The hot sparks should light the gas fumes nicely. :)

[NoltaiR]

Thanks for the spell check NBK, the error in the sig is corrected.

[NERV]

I was wondering if you have had any problems with that kind of H2SO4. because your H2SO4 is the same kind as mine, And I constantly have problems with it.

[kingspaz]

NERV, if you want to make your drain opener better quality then simply boil it. the last water will be removed and the dye will also evapourate leaving 98% H2SO4 with little impurites.

[NERV]

I always thought that if you boiled it the dyes would just stay in the acid. Well I guess I have a new thing to try in the morning. Hopefully it will work because this is the cheapest source I have for H2SO4.

[NoltaiR]

Alright time for my 24 hour status report.

First I should reply to your posts.
To NERV: I have been using this type of H2SO4 in all of my AP labs that I have conducted over the past few years excepting 2 or 3 small-scale labs which were done with 95% lab grade H2SO4 which I 'aquired' from a chemistry class back in high school. I have never boiled it and due to the fact that the additives (which account for about 2-3% of the acid mixture) are there only to reduce the amount of heat generated when the H2SO4 comes in contact with other chemicals.. which is a great thing for this lab because it means that instead of have to add drop by drop, you can use more of a gentle 'squirt' from a medicine dropper or pipet without heating the acetone mix up very high. Also if there is any problem that I note from the first batch of AP that I always take which contains ALL the additives, it is that it makes the AP take slightly longer to get dry, but it does not hurt the performance any.

Having that said, I have just updated it for today with the first batch of AP retrieved (130g). The second batch will be taken at the 48 hour mark and it will be a snow-white color rather than brown as it is in the first batch.

For those of you too lazy to scroll up, here is the link again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Just scroll down to the second status report which is on the same page.

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/noltair" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/noltair</a>

[Mick]

what the hell is "rc" as in APrc or APANrc

i don't think i've even see that one on the forum before

[BrAiNFeVeR]

Although it's another one of those unregulated abbreviations, it has been used lots of times before ...

It stands for "rubber cement" iirc.

[NoltaiR]

Brainfever is correct.. the abbreviation hasn't really been used all that extensively although it has been around for at least a few months now. The first time I started using 'rc' was in the 'explosive putty' thread. But in any case, it is a good enough plasticizer to deserve its own abbreviation (in my opinion) for crystalline type explosives because of its toluene content and various other characteristics that it has.

[A-BOMB]

Noltair that AP don't look quite right to me, kinda brownish wouldn't you say.

[kingspaz]

A-Bomb, that is residual dye from the H2SO4.

NoltaiR, to remove the dye from the drain opener simply bring it to the boil for 20s or so and the dye will vanish (evapourate i assume, but never make assumptions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).
also a note on your procedure for boiling the H2O2 down...you use a metal pan. if the pan is Al then its ok but if it is a stainless steel then it would likely catalyse the decomposition of the H2O2 thus leaving you with less H2O2 than you would expect.

[NoltaiR]

Contrary to popular belief that white AP is the best way to have it, I rather favor having a coloration in mine (and yes it is because of the drain opener H2SO4) because in such cases as my APANrc, it is very easy to distinguish when the two are well mixed, which would be much harder if they were both white.

Anyways I just stopped in to see the posts, right now I am currently working on the lab and I have already mixed up the first batch of APrc (80g) and APANrc (240g). They are setting out to let the rc dry (which can take quite a while), but all I have yet to do for today is extract my second batch of what I call '48 hour AP'. It looks like a good turnout from the looks of the mix and in fact, I am going to do something I haven't ever done before and I will let the filtrate from this batch refrigerate and see if any amount of '72 hour AP' can be taken.

And as said earlier, the dyes in the drain cleaner H2SO4 all settle and come out in the 24 hour batch, so the 48 hour and the 72 hour will be snow-white like the rest of you are used to seeing.

Anyways I will post my status report and pics when I am done with this new AP so check back in an hour or so.

edit: and one more thing, kingspaz is correct about the use of boiling in metal pots. This lab uses a cast aluminum pot but I have done tests with other metals in the past and you can tell how much is decomposing based on the amount of ozone around the pot (which is very easy to smell when boiling such large amounts).

<small>[ September 18, 2002, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]</small>

[kingspaz]

just another thing to add about H2O2 boiling pots. the reason Al is fine and stainless steel not is because stainless steel is transition metal based. the pot must be non transition metal because these metals have catalystic properties towards H2O2. not sure if they all do, Sc and Zn would not have these properties but they are not transition by definition even though in the D block of the periodic table.

[A-BOMB]

Noltair what where the ratios of the AP to rc? And Noltair you have chickens? I though my family was one of the last people that still raise their own chickens.

[dave]

noltair i just read your post and i was thinking. you should use some bacquil shock and oxidizer. I got some 27% in a one gallon jug and it was only $15.15 with sales tax. It seems to work way better then boiled 3% hydroger peroxide. Me and my friend whips up 3x batches at one time: 150ml acetone, 90ml bacquil shock, 30ml 94% sulfuric acid. We can filter it out in one hour and the solution is so thick that it won't pour. We have to stir it around pour some water water in it to be able to filter it. My friend and i can do a whole batch and filter it in 2.5 hours and load it the next morning.

------------------
don't you think he'd use it if he could get it?! he has actually found a technique to make the best of what he CAN get - kingspaz

<small>[ September 18, 2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

[NoltaiR]

Alright just finished with todays work and the 3rd status report. I would stay and reply to your posts but I am late for work!

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/noltair" target="_blank">www.geocities.com/noltair</a>

[EP]

Good documentation!

I also raise chickens btw.

[NoltaiR]

I can tell you guys are very observant if you noticed the one pic that had the chicken in the background out of all of them. :rolleyes:

Anyways, to answer the question about ratios of AP to rc, I really have never measured it (and I have done this lab MANY times.. in fact this is my third bottle of drain cleaner H2SO4 to have bought just for this lab...as well as a couple failed picric acid labs). I just use enough to cover all the AP but not so much that you would have rc still around the pile unmixed.

[NoltaiR]

Last night the 24 hour white AP (which was 100g when wet) was completely dry after just 5 hours of setting (as opposed to the dyed AP which took over 24 hours). Anyways the white AP was mixed with rc and its final weight was 110g. Testing will probably be done tomorrow (and maybe in very small amounts tonight where the APrc has dried around the edges).

But the particular advantage to this lab with rc is that it stays a spongy texture for a while (a few days when exposed to air, about a week and a half when sealed up). It dries in the form of an unshaped slab (about 1cm thick) and when ready to use, you simply take a knife or cookie cutter and cut the shape of explosive that you want.

If a claymore style is desired, BBs or other small metal material can easily be embedded in the cut peice of explosive. Just make sure that the BBs are embedded only slightly, the stickyness of the APrc will hold it; otherwise you may interfere with the possible VoD of the explosive if the density is changed.

Then ground zero is selected. The explosive, although dry of water, is sticky, so that it can be placed on vertical walls, or even upside-down on the bottoms of chair seats or similar.

If a fuse ignition is to be selected, make sure you have a type that doesn't throw a lot of sparks (low carbon content) and that you have plenty of fuse just to be extra sure that the explosive doesn't detonate prematurely. As an added precaution, lay strips of duct tape over the APrc to protect from heat and sparks.

[nbk2000]

The chicken was one of my spies. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[NoltaiR]

Well as of this evening both the white and the dark APrc charges were dried but it was raining outside so I didn't feel like doing anything other than staying inside and watching MTV. Anyways I am probably going to do most, if not all, my testing tomorrow so expect quite a few pics. The APrc has been cut into about 7 rectangles of differing sizes with scissors. The APANrc is still drying and for some reason it sweats off some sort of oily residue when drying.. I wasn't sure if that had to do with the addition of AN or rc.

The APANrc charge will most likely be devided into two 105g charges (that is an estimated dry weight), or I might just get daring and use it all... I kinda feel like destroying another folding chair. :D

Also, for the FAE idea, I have decided to simply use the APrc as a lift charge and have gasoline in a ziplock bag over it.. very basic and definetly not a very original idea; but I think it will make for a nice show. And also what you guys don't know (yet) about the detonation of APrc is that although it completely detonates--and is very brissant--it throws of some pretty good forks of fire as well which would be more than enough to ignite the gasoline. The APANrc, on the other hand, is still a rather low temp detonation--though a lot of pushing power which is common with AN mixes--which doesn't throw off any visible amount of flame.

I have spent some of my free time this evening preping my old ignition box.. it still works but looks a bit shabby; and I have made a few feet of what I call ghetto fuse which is a line of finely powdered KNO3 and sugar along ducttape which is rolled up. The purpose of this is to (1). have a slow burning delay and (2). have something that is extrely easy to make with no limit on how much I can make and finally (3.) have a very flexible and versatile type of delay. Oh yeah, and it doesn't throw off sparks like a BP fuse would making it more favorable for this type of improvised lab.

edit: one more thing, the characteristic of APrc being sticky is based on the drying time. The charge will go through a few changes while setting out. First when the rc is mixed with the AP, you will notice that whatever remaining water that was in the AP will immediately start to sweat off, making the only thing that you really have to wait to dry off for is the solvents in the rc. Once it is dry the AP will feel a little spongy and it is minutely flexible, bend it too much and it will begin to break.. but at this point the AP is not sticky yet. Then the AP is allowed to set a little longer and after a small amount of AP has vaporized on the outside, the bonding toluene will be left bare on the outside of the charge making it sticky.

<small>[ September 20, 2002, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]</small>

[xoo1246]

Cutting AP bonded with rubber cement with scissors? That sounds clever.
Bombshock MK II, here we come.

<small>[ September 20, 2002, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[NoltaiR]

Ahh well it works.. along with the fact that I just don't have as much respect for its possible sensitivity as I should.

And I do resent the whole 'bombshock' comment... if you were doing this lab then you could do it how you want, but seeing as how I am the one doing the research, then its my way or no way.

Anyways I checked the APANrc this morning and the oils have quit sweating so it should be ready as well by this afternoon.

<small>[ September 20, 2002, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]</small>

[carbonated]

Xoo is just trying to tell you, Noltair, that it is not a good idea. I thought the same thing myself. There could easily be too much pressure on the AP crystals. Just because you are doing the lab doesn't mean people can't find potential problems or dangers. I have thought that perhaps the ANPANrc is safer than regular APAN for the fact that the rc sounds like it removes the water. Would make the AN less hygroscopic and thus less acidic? I really like the lab though, Noltair!

[NoltaiR]

The rc addition to the APAN removes the hygroscopic characteristic of AN completely as far as I can tell. I tried a little test about an hour ago with the APrc but it is still not dry enough (there is a little moisture being held in the middle that will evaporate once the AP starts vaporizing a little and the APrc reaches its 'sticky' state). The APANrc is getting close to dry, it is in a solid block now that is soft in just a few places. I will give the both of them until tomorrow evening then the tests will procede.

Also the rc makes the AP much less shock sensitive due to the spongy nature of the mix so the scissors are alright.

[Anthony]

Cutting the RC is no problem, but even though it's shock absorbing and whatever, there's still solid crystals of AP inside. It's unlikely, but you may happen to catch a crystal directly in the cutting edges of the scissors, shear it and then the whole mass could detonate.

Of course, you're free to do whatever you want, however you want. Just *possible* dangers should be pointed out for other people who may emulate what you've done.

[NoltaiR]

Alright the fourth status report is up now... I only had time today for a couple small APrc tests so the pics of that is up. Anyways I will post the rest of the tests in the next status report (whenever I have time.. APrc tends to vaporize very slowly so I should be alright).

[mistigry]

I'm french and new on this forum, i'd like to know what is rubber ciment and what is it use for ?

Is it like liquid rubber ??? or latex ??

[IPN]

This came into mind while looking your pictures (NoltaiR). You don´t use any kind of containers (like shell) or case to put the explosive in, you just cut piece of the APrc and stick a fuse in and blow it up meaning no pressure build up :confused: Why?

(Ps.sorry for my english and if being so stupid!)

[NoltaiR]

That is the beauty of cast or bonded explosives such as this. Containers result in uneven explosions that can only be directed by shaped charges which can be more trouble than they are worth. By using an explosive that detontates without a container means a fairly even overpressure all the way around. Also you don't have to take the extra time or money to find something to contain it in.

[Rat Bastard]

Is it me, or is using DBSP/acetone binded AP a lot better? I have used pingpong balls and rubber cement, but I have found that the DBSP binder works best.

<small>[ September 24, 2002, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]</small>

[NoltaiR]

Oh I have no doubt in my mind that DBSP is better simply because your binder contains NG which is more powerful than the AP itself. But the rc idea was simply put together for those who cannot get DBSP for some reason or another, or simply want a binder that takes less work. Personally I have made a few charges in the past with the DBSP/acetone method, but the power difference really isn't all that noticable, especially for someone lazy like me who would rather just pour some rc on the AP and stir and then set... then its ready. Also your DBSP/acetone is more moldable than APrc which is an upside for those looking for a good reason to make DBSP/AP putty rather than my basic APrc.

And idea that just popped into my mind is whether a mix of APAN and DBSP/acetone could be made and deployed without a detonator. Because my APANrc requires a primary charge of APrc or else the APANrc will simply burn rather than detonate.

I have done a few more tests today but I will wait until I have all of the APrc and APANrc used up before posting my 5th and final status report. Also I have decided against the FAE test simply because there is so much dry grass where I live and I am not going to take a chance of a grass fire. Instead I am going to buy about 1-2Kg of AN and make some ANFO and see if I can detonate it with APrc as the primary charge and APANrc as the booster charge; the only confinement to any of these explosives will be that they are going to be partially buried about 2 feet deep. (I don't want to cover it completely incase there is a misfire and I need to retrieve it.)

[NoltaiR]

Newscaster: '...due to unforseen circumstances beyond our control, this program will no longer air for the remainder of this season... join us next...'

Actually I have some very saddening news.. before I could even use up half of my APrc and APANrc, my nosey parents found it and disposed of it (or so they say)... and by now they know what all of my different chemicals/compounds look like. So consider this the final status report; I will be once again away from the explosives hobby for a while because I just don't have any time (obviously, because I made the AP last week and I still haven't used even most of it) with work and all. Maybe someday I will do it again and repeat the lab and finish with a proper status report.

Also if anyone would like to possibly take up where I left off and can take some pics of deploying the explosive and would like to post it on my site, please tell me. I will be more than happy to give credit where it is due. Thank you.

[Devils Sign]

I dont get it why some parents can be such a pain in the ass... U have a really nice documentation there! Maybe you should let them read it and after that they might think different about it. Are they realy searching for chemicals or explosive devices? My parents say this: If you do such "Dangerous" things, I prefer you do it safe and have everything "under control" than doing it al secret and unsafe wich can lead to unforseen sequences.

[Flake2m]

if you want to stop your parents from getting into your stuff. I would invest about $50 and buy one of those steel tool boxes. Put the box in you room or wherever and get a big lock put on it, make sure you are the only person with the key (have 2 keys one kept on you and the other in a secure and safe spot). You then lock up all of your chems and explosive in the bo. (just make sure the explosives and chems are seperate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). Problem solved investment secure :D .

I looked in this thread and you didn't say what amount of rubber cement to AP you used. I want to use a binder for my AP to make it easier to handle.

[NoltaiR]

Oh its over now guys.. and my parents have actually talked to cops before about homemade explosives which just put even more crap in their heads... I will give up explosives testing for a while and focus on the explosives information pages that I am putting together. I will probably resume my testing in about 6-7 months when I get my own apartment and my parents won't follow me everywhere I go.

edit: and flake2m.. I never actually figured ratios but I have all the weights on documentation page.. so just subtract the weight of the AP before the addition of rc from the weight fo the AP after the addition. But in any case when you are making it, so long as there is enough rc to cover all the AP, you really can't mess up, because all rc not used to bond will just evaporate. The main thing is to make sure that your APrc is plenty dry (the best way to check for this is to brake a chunk of the APrc in half and look for moisture).

<small>[ October 02, 2002, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]</small>

[EventHorizon]

I don't know about you but I wouldn't "break" anything containing acetone peroxide.

On a side note, anyone see CSI:Miami the other night. Like a bomber capable of putting together such and device like what was used would use TATP.