NaCLO3/vaseline charge -Archive File

[megalomania]

Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 01, 2001 08:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found soemting interesting on the net today, it was a person's attempt at detonating NaCLO3/vaseline with AP. Of course I would never do this myself because it would be illegal. From here on I speak as the person that did this stuff purely becuse it is easier to read
850gm of NaCLO3 was powdered by hand (which took god damn ages)and mixed with 100gm of vaseline to give approximately the 9:1 mix suggest by KIPE. It was impossible to kneed into the chlorate and just made a big mess so I melted the vaseline in a hot water bath which made things easier. The finnished mix was stuck together but crumbled so I reckon you'd need more vaseline if want an actual plastique.

The top was cut off a dissposable CO2 welding cylinder and a few hole drilled near the top to allow the top to be reattached by some strips of metal.

The detonator was made from a 9" length of 22mm copper pipe. plugged at one end with Jb weld metal putty stuff, the other end would be sealed by a 22mm copper cap which was put onto the end of the pipe and drilled all the way through so that a bolt could be pushed through to hold the cap on (this allowed the detonator to be filled at the blast site). The cap was drilled through the top and a length of visco tapped in.

The detonator was put into the cylinder and the cylindre was filled with water. It had a capacity of 650ml, requiring a loading density of 1.3gm/cm this mean I needed to load 850gm of explosive into the canister around the detonator:



I couldn't be bother to cut and drill some strips of metal to attach the top of the canister soI used a couple of bits of Dexion attached to the canister with screws:



*I've had to break this into two halves because theforum wouldn't post the message because it claimed I had over the allowed 8 number of images, stupid thing - I've got 6!*

[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited January 01, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited January 01, 2001).]


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 01, 2001 08:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After walking a fair way to the test site we found a spot at the side of a lake, after an hour of digging into clay/gravel/frozen soil with a plastic trowel it was starting to get dark so we decided to just use the pretty shallow hole as is. The top of the canister was removed and the cap taken off the detonator. AP was poured into the detonator and compressed with my finger (eep!). The "bomb" was put back together, placed into the hole and the soil packed around it:


The fuse was light and much running was done, about 25 seconds later there was a loud explosion that echoed about 5 times (off god knows what, it was just a lake!). Running back to the hole revealed a partical detonation, only the explosive around the detonator (most of the charge) had detonated, the stuff below the detonator hadn't:



I pulled the remain of the bottom of the cylinder out of the hole, this comfirmed that the bottom of the chrage hadn't gone off (the explosive underneath the detonator was packed mcuh to hard in the frist place):

A while into inspected the remains, the top oft he canister finally returned to earth and splashed down into the lake.

In conclusion, I would use a more sensitive/less messy explosive and use a detonator with AP pressed to the correct density and preferably with a booster such as picric acid. I think ANNM would be worth investigating as it's so much easier to prepare, more sensitive and more powerful.

Fuck, it's too late, I've put this in the wrong god damn section, that's it, I'm going to bed.

[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited January 01, 2001).]


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 01, 2001 08:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fuck this now the fucking pictures won't fucking well load! this is fucking me off, I'm going the fuck to fucking bed!


zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 403
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 01, 2001 09:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thought it was just my PC. The first one shows, but the rest won't. Anyway, keep up the good work, i like it when people find images and stories relating to the topics we theoretically discuss here
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at <a href="http://www.surf.to/eliteforum" target="_blank">www.surf.to/eliteforum</a>


Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 01, 2001 09:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yea, I like pictures too. I cant wait to take pics of my stuff. In the US, can you take pics into a store and have them put them on a disk for you? Can you do it by yourself, or can people see your pics?
ps The first pic worked for me the second I visited.

[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited January 01, 2001).]


PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 01, 2001 09:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
just copy what I typed from my edit page anthony:
I found soemting interesting on the net today, it was a person's attempt at detonating NaCLO3/vaseline with AP. Of course I would never do this myself because it would be illegal. From here on I speak as the person that did this stuff purely becuse it is easier to read
850gm of NaCLO3 was powdered by hand (which took god damn ages)and mixed with 100gm of vaseline to give approximately the 9:1 mix suggest by KIPE. It was impossible to kneed into the chlorate and just made a big mess so I melted the vaseline in a hot water bath which made things easier. The finnished mix was stuck together but crumbled so I reckon you'd need more vaseline if want an actual plastique.

The top was cut off a dissposable CO2 welding cylinder and a few hole drilled near the top to allow the top to be reattached by some strips of metal.

The detonator was made from a 9" length of 22mm copper pipe. plugged at one end with Jb weld metal putty stuff, the other end would be sealed by a 22mm copper cap which was put onto the end of the pipe and drilled all the way through so that a bolt could be pushed through to hold the cap on (this allowed the detonator to be filled at the blast site). The cap was drilled through the top and a length of visco tapped in.



The detonator was put into the cylinder and the cylindre was filled with water. It had a capacity of 650ml, requiring a loading density of 1.3gm/cm this mean I needed to load 850gm of explosive into the canister around the detonator:



I couldn't be bother to cut and drill some strips of metal to attach the top of the canister soI used a couple of bits of Dexion attached to the canister with screws:



*I've had to break this into two halves because theforum wouldn't post the message because it claimed I had over the allowed 8 number of images, stupid thing - I've got 6!*



[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited January 02, 2001).]


PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 02, 2001 01:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After walking a fair way to the test site we found a spot at the side of a lake, after an hour of digging into clay/gravel/frozen soil with a plastic trowel it was starting to get dark so we decided to just use the pretty shallow hole as is. The top of the canister was removed and the cap taken off the detonator. AP was poured into the detonator and compressed with my finger (eep!). The "bomb" was put back together, placed into the hole and the soil packed around it:


The fuse was light and much running was done, about 25 seconds later there was a loud explosion that echoed about 5 times (off god knows what, it was just a lake!). Running back to the hole revealed a partical detonation, only the explosive around the detonator (most of the charge) had detonated, the stuff below the detonator hadn't:



I pulled the remain of the bottom of the cylinder out of the hole, this comfirmed that the bottom of the chrage hadn't gone off (the explosive underneath the detonator was packed mcuh to hard in the frist place):



A while into inspected the remains, the top oft he canister finally returned to earth and splashed down into the lake.

In conclusion, I would use a more sensitive/less messy explosive and use a detonator with AP pressed to the correct density and preferably with a booster such as picric acid. I think ANNM would be worth investigating as it's so much easier to prepare, more sensitive and more powerful.

Fuck, it's too late, I've put this in the wrong god damn section, that's it, I'm going to bed.

there I fixed it for ya (PYRO500)

[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited January 02, 2001).]


MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 02, 2001 04:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony,the person on the net who attempted this could try compressing the AP with a press;the det. vel. is increased considerably.I saw pic.'s on the net of a large baby food jar of of this compound shot with a compressed compound det.(HMTD/Picric)in the center of a large parking lot;no signs of the lid,jar,or expl. were found.
------------------
"There can be only one!"


NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 02, 2001 07:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that the stuff you made up in your charge really detonated....
The amount you made (950g- NEARLY ONE KG) Shouls have left a REAL BIG crater and sent off a large shockwave....
The fact that most of your mixture had gone after it made boom is probably only cause it has flown away... Your detonator is something that i would have called a bomb of its own and it's powerfull enough to shatter the case and evaporate or throw away most of the contents of your charge...
If it has just been blasted off, it's now superfine white dust....
I don't think your bomb really worked.. sorry
------------------
Death stalks silently....


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 02, 2001 10:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Pyro500! I would liked to have pressed the AP but the situation didn't aloow it. How much straight AP (no booster) should I need to detonate NaCLO3 and pressed to what density?
Would something like a bean tin or jar provide enough confinement? these heavy duty steel containers are a pain to work with.
Can anyone recommend a better sensitizer than vaseline, soemthing solid that I could just mix in, or maybe a liquid? I've got a bottle of 20% NM racing fuel?

Nightstalker, I think you're right, when I looked at the pictures I knew it hadn't worked as well as it appeared on site, you can see lumps of white explosive scattered about in the picture.

Thanks for the input guys I'm sure the guy is determined to try again untill it works!


NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 02, 2001 12:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok....
If one day he suceeds tell me I would be very interested in the results of such a charge working....
------------------
Death stalks silently....


Bandit
Frequent Poster
Posts: 82
From: U.K.
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 02, 2001 01:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go to <a href="http://www.f-3.org.uk/~fs/" target="_blank">http://www.f-3.org.uk/~fs/</a> do a search for sodium chlorate, they have quite a few files for other things as well.
Bandit


J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 02, 2001 01:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps Al powder would work as a sensitizer?
J


blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 02, 2001 01:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great pics!
I think a lot of the compression was lost, due to the fact that the cylinder lid was blown off. Maybe the NaClo3 charge partially detonated, but it's a shame that the rest didn't, as 1KG of it all detonating would be spectacular. Maybe it would have all detonated, if the cylinder lid was on really tight. Could you have used petrol as a sensitizer? Or maybe you could even mix some AP in with the NaClo3? I'm not really fond on using NaClo3 as a secondary explosive, as I hate to see good explosives go down the drain, or up in the air, in this case.


Bandit
Frequent Poster
Posts: 82
From: U.K.
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 02, 2001 03:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ive zipped up a few interesting files. some on NaCO3 <a href="http://www.geocities.com/banditsfiles/Swat.zip" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/banditsfiles/Swat.zip</a>

Bandit


zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 403
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 02, 2001 07:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i know it would be extremely dangerous to carry around 1kg of chlorate flash, but how much easier would that be to detonate? Seems to me that it wouldn't be too hard, only problem being that you have to have enough balls to carry this around.
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at <a href="http://www.surf.to/eliteforum" target="_blank">www.surf.to/eliteforum</a>


ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 22, 2001 09:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IN one of ragnars books it claims potassium chlorat/sugar can be detonated
------------------
Explosives Archive


MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 22, 2001 10:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony,a while back I posted a suggestion about compressing the AP,but I failed to post this info:If you're going to compress it,use an improvised 2 by 4 press (like the design in TM 31-210) so you are good and far away if an accident happens.I recently acquired a newfound respect for AP after a friend of mine made his first few batches with HCl instead of sulfuric.He dropped a match on a 3/16th. by 1/16th.speck that had fallen to the floor and it popped like a firecracker.I became rather nervous when I realized that if the entire batch he had went up at once(4 batches of 200ml.27% H202/150ml.Acetone/50ml.HCl)it would probably level his basement!(he does keep it seperated in small quantities,though).
------------------
"That which does not kill us,makes us stronger"


10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 411
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 23, 2001 12:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited July 19, 2001).]


vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 23, 2001 03:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For 1 kilo of flash, prepare it on site in small batches.
Moving to HE Forum


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 23, 2001 08:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks guys, I will try again soon with a sonsiderably smaller, compressed cap, I was think of 2gm of AP pressed onto of 2-5gm of picri acid. I was going to press it in a vice with a sandbag on top, but what's a 4x2 press? All I can guess is that it uses 4x2's.


MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 23, 2001 07:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know how well I can describe it,but I'll give it a try.Have you ever seen the 'Bent Over Row' machines bodybuilders use?.Same basic principle.You need a base(2 by 6 or wider,8 or 10 feet long),two 8 inch long segments of 2 by 4,and an 8 or 10 foot long 2 by 4(for the press lever).Connect the short 2 by 4's(standing on end) to one end of the 2 by 6 by running some screws up through the bottom.Then drill a hole through the 2 by 4's,bolt the lever on.Attatch the lever(on edge)to the 2 by 4 uprights with a bolt,nut.Did I forget to mention the dowel?.Attach a dowel rod(matching the I.D. of your det. case)to the bottom edge of the lever(8 inches from the uprights)to press the explosive into the detonator.Then drill a hole in the base to set the det. cases into,making sure it's perfectly aligned with the dowel.It's a very basic design,but works well.Also,make the lever 2 feet longer than the base,then attach a blast shield to the forward end of the base.The picture's not very accurate,sorry.You need to make the dowel long enough that the lever clears the blast shield,still reaches the detonator.
------------------
"That which does not kill us,makes us stronger"

[This message has been edited by MacCleod (edited January 23, 2001).]


MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 23, 2001 07:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crud!.when my info was posted,everything got shifted,making the stick pic's disappear.Could someone with a scanner send Anthony some proper pictures?.
------------------
"That which does not kill us,makes us stronger"


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 23, 2001 08:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's OK, I got what you mean from the description, a good idea and shouldn't take long to knock up and you stay a decent distance from the explosive being pressed.
One more question, does the AP *need* tp be pressed to initiate the picric acid in a metal det casing? Will AP puty not be dense enough?


simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 24, 2001 03:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've read about improvised bombs that were used after the liberation of Turkish joke by some bulgarian anarchists and revolutionairs. They were composed of steel container filled with KClO3 and sugar, not sure for the proportion but everyone could calculate it (detonation products - KCl, H2O and CO2). It's said that this explosives is very sensitive and explodes easily with blasting cap or fuse cord. It is said that it also is not too sensitive to be used in large quantities. I think this formula will also work with NaClO3, but not completely sure, you could try it(i haven't got NaClO3, if I had I would 100%try this) but be careful while working with this...

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

Has anyone actually detonated this mix? reliably? or does it require confinement to ensure detonation?

on a _slightly_ different note, can anyone tell me if KNO3 and vaseline would work? (with an acceptable blasting cap of course)

just a thought

its a good idea to bring old ideas/posts up, allows us to make new approaches that we might not have taken

[Anthony]

Damn, I was hoping this thread (well my posts in it) wouldn't get viewed... Look at all those mistakes!

The only chlorate mix I've ever gotten to detonate was NaClO3 + Nitromethane. With vaseline and parafin it didn't work. Although some people have supposedly gotten it to.

I'd be interested if you got vaseline + KNO3 to work, as it'd mean that the NaNO3/diesel I want to try would work!

[sinstar]

Me and a friend(who is a member of this forum)detonated NaClo3 and vaseline with a few grams of HMTD(my favourite primary), well I say detonated it was more of a half detonation as there were bits splattered just about evreywhere, but I know why, for a start it was not loaded to the correct density(no scales at the time)and second it was in a brasso tin, not the most ideal container in the world. But the stuff that splattered we lit it and it was very very bright. As for the NaClo3 and suger explosive I think the ratio is 3-2, NaClo3/suger, however I got that ratio from the white resistance manual and IMO I don't find to trustworthy.

<small>[ October 01, 2002, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: sinstar ]</small>

[vulture]

Having the balls to carry around 1kg of chlorate flash he? How close comes preparing 200g batches of KMnO4/Al/S? If I ever find a suitable site (pain in the ass here, too densily populated) I might try to detonate/burn large quantities of flash. However, suppose the flash doesn't detonate but get's scattered around by the det, would it still ignite from explosion heat?
-&gt; don't want to waste large quantities of flash, as I got quite good Al powder which is expensive and might be hard to find one day.

On the subject of KClO3/sugar: From personal experience I know that well mixed dry KClO3/sugar 70/30 burns faster than BP. If you want a stoichiometric mix for the det, here's the equation: 16KClO3 + 2C12H22O11 -&gt; 16KCl + 24CO2 + 22H2O. This means that per mole of sugar 23 moles of gas are produced. Pretty good.

<small>[ October 01, 2002, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

well i'm about to produce the first batch of AP for a looong while, and i'll mix up some KNO3/vaseline and confine it, when i get a good chance to detonate it i'll tell you all about it (if it works and pics) i was trying to think WHY it wouldn't work, but i can't think of any at the moment (not to say there isn't a glaring one that will rear its ugly head when i do this) but if this mix does work then i'll be more then a bit happy, as i'll be able to save someone a few bob by removing a tree-stump with it (he wants it GONE but not burnt)

i might be able to re-coup the cost of this F*(KING EXPENSIVE KNO3
that i bought (99.999% pure, but at about 200% the price :( )

[Madog555]

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/madog555/PC.html" target="_blank">www.geocities.com/madog555/PC.html</a>

this is pics of 100g of KClO3/sugar/vaseline, i foret the ratios. i wonder if the sugar is a reason why it worked.

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

just a few questions....

how deep was that crater?
what were the dimensions of the tin?
thickness of tin/container?
detonator charge? (ap or hmtd ?)

sorry to ask so many questions :o but i'd like to know as I may soon have enough KCLO3 to do this... and I like to know what its cappable of :D

Out of interest, should i mix the KCLO3 and sugar is stoichiometric amounts, or should i use slightly less sugar, and rely on the vaseline ?

[Anthony]

I'm not sure of your source of KClO3, but if you're converting it from NaClO3 weedkiller, have you considered just using the NaClO3 as is?

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

that was actually the source :p as the local general store is selling 10kg bags of the stuff (with a fair amount of fire suppressant :(
but i have a good source of hot water and KCL so i'm happy, i have an interesting way of removing the fire suppressent from NACLO3 btw, i used DRYCLEANING FLUID
(perchlorethane or Perc as its known) this removes about 99% of the NACL with only a minimal loss to the NACLO3 that is treated. I can't seem to reclaim the perc from the solution. its too cheap to distil it (and it can get you high at _remarkably_ low conc) and i know that the vapour is a tad dangerous (even for me).

I know that i'll get higher power from the KCLO3, so for a bit more effort on my part i end up with a more impressive result.... if i needed some quick hi-ex then i would just use NACLO3

on another note, if i was to use a limited amount of sugar and K/NACLO3 with vaseline, would the power generated by the smaller amount of sugar be enough to "crack" the petroleum chains and supply us with more bang (i'm making a guess here that the vaseline isn't just acting as a binder) i say this from the view-point of activation energies... a high input from the small mix of weedkiller/sugar which allows the rest of the weedkiller to oxidise/react with the vaseline that can now break-down into useful components.

[zaibatsu]

Earlier on theforum, there was a big debate as to whether NaClO3/Vaseline would detonate, and in that thread the topic of NaClO3/Sugar came up, and it is alleged to be easier to detonate. So I would try that first if I was you, it'd certainly be nicer to handle (Plus buying large amounts of sugar will get you less funny looks than buying lots of vaseline)

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

well this weekend i will test both my NACLO3/sugar and KNO3/vaseline/bit of sugar mix, i'll det with a few grams of ap, i'm just trying to find a suitable place as i live in a city and that means either a park at night (crap pictures) or next-door's garden <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

i dont think they'll like fluffy becoming the next catsputnik <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[THe_rEaL_dEaL]

Hey all

How much success has been had when synthing chlorates via Calcium Hypochlorite + metal salt (eg NACL/KCL)?

Do you recommend this method for large batches, say over 1 KG?

I originally came across this method at Wouter Visser pyrotechnics site

[zeocrash]

From my memories of chlorate/sugar it just burns rapidly and smokes alot. does this explosive actually require a blasting cap to ignite. i was thinking that maybe the NACLO₃ / sugar might be igniting and generating enough heat to start the reaction of vaselene with the chlorate. if this was so you could ignite it with a straw full of chlorate sugar mix, or a piece of MG ribon (expensive).

I have seen a few recipies for this before, i noticed on one that it also added parafin wax to the mixture, this may affect the detonation as well as the consistancy.

Oh yeah to remove the fire retardant from chlorate weedkiller, you just need to put it through a sieve, the retardant crystals are considerably larger than the chlorate crystals

[Anthony]

Back up a bit there Zeocrash.

Firstly, the fire retardent is the small particles, and the NaClO3 crystals, the large. If you've been throwing away the big stuff, you've got yourself a nice collection of NaCl <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Chlorate/vaseline and Chlorate/sugar both require a blasting cap and probably a booster too, to detonate. They won't make the deflageration to detonation transition from an ignition source.

Parafin wax is added to give the finished explosive a more putty-like texture. Chlorate/vaseline alone is a gooey mess.

[nbk2000]

Or just skip the vaseline entirely and use parraffin to make it castable.

[s4r1n]

I have successfully detonated both chlorate/sugar and chlorate/vaseline usinq 1g HMTD in old brass cartridge case as detonators. I followed the instructions in TM 31-210. These 'charges' were housed in cardboard tubes (bog roll) and I found the chlorate/sugar gave a better bang. I haven't experimented with these substances for about 18 years, but I think it's about time I did.

[nbk2000]

And how old are you implying you are by the statement "I haven't...18 years", and then choose an L33+ name like s4r1n? :rolleyes:

Necromancy is a crime. Let dead threads rest in peace unless you've got something OVERWHELMINGLY relevant to add.