Urea Derivates

[Dr_Pind]

Has anyone got info on ureas chemical properties. Could it be possible for example to peroxidize the CO(carbonyl) group of urea as is done with acetone when making TCAP. Could the CO groups be nitrated, without just making urea nitrate where the HNO3 is just acting as crystal-water? And how about the NH2 groups. Could they be reacted to form an explosive compound like TMDD just with nitrate groups instead of peroxide? If any of the above or similar reactions are possible, or if anyone is familiar with such reactions, please post so.

[Dave Angel]

Read the rules and search before you post please. New topics are particularly frowned upon as a first post here.

[Wild Catmage]

Sorry, I know very little about urea, but...

A search on http://chemfinder.cambridgesoft.com/
may yield some information that is useful to you.

There's some threads on this forum at:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2707

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134

The main urea derived explosive seems to be urea nitrate.

There's a book called "Explosives and Propellants from Commonly Available Materials" by Desert Publications. You can get it as a pdf file from http://rain.prohosting.com/messers/2component_pdf.zip
It has information on the synthesis and properties of urea nitrate as well as HMTD, and some fulminates. It also has some useful diagrams at the back of the book.

Originally posted by Dr_Pind
Darn! Must have missed that line in the rules. My apologies on that one. won't happen again.

Can't happen again I think... ;)

[Trinitrotoluene]

First post, and new topic most likely wolud get you banned, next time read the rules.

[knowledgehungry]

Actually I was pondering the possibility of a Urea Cycloperoxide. I'm not sure about its possibility. Will do research and will ask my org chem teacher later.

[Kid Orgo]

I've asked this before, but:
Could we as a whole PLEASE leave the warnings to the mods?

It's very aggravating to read a thread which could become informative and have 75% of all the entries be "stfu n00b"ing people. If the mods don't think it's a worthwhile thread, they'll do something about it.

Furthermore:
If you feel the urge to flame me for making this respectful request, or commenting on how many posts I have under my name, I ask you to please restrain yourself. This is a reasonable request to make, and it's on that merit that i make it, not how many posts I have. The same goes for new threads by people with a low post count. The rules say to judge based on merit, and that those judgements are made by the mods.

[Dr_Pind]

Darn! Must have missed that line in the rules. My apologies on that one. won't happen again.

Now, Knowledgehungry. You mentioned Urea Cycloperoxide. I was wondering if this reaction would be possible:

3 CO(NH2)2*H2O2 + H2SO4 = Cyclo C(NH2)2-O-O-C(NH2)2-O-O-C(NH2)-O-O- + 3 H2O.

Hope you get the idea. If not, the idea was to let the urea carbonyl group react with the peroxide hydrogen with H2SO4 as a catalyst and as a water absorber, thus forming TCUP (Tri Cyclo Urea Peroxide) Just like TCAP.

I will try this some day, but if some of you other guys care to try it, please let me know the results.

[a_bab]

Read this thread (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=548&highlight=urea+peroxide)

TMDD is way weaker than AP.

[Dr_Pind]

Has anybody tried to synthesize Dimethylol Urea Dinitrate? I believe that it could be made from Urea, formaldehyde(formol) and nitric acid. If one first reacted the urea and formaldehyde to obtain Dimethylol Urea, one could probably nitrate this with nitric acid to form Dimethylol Urea Dinitrate. The process would be similar to the manufacture of TMDD, where the Dimethylol Urea is reacted with H2O2 instead of nitric acid. I havent been able to find any info on this compound on the net, but i believe that it would be a rather powerfull explosive, due to the oxygen balance. If this synthesis is possible, one could manufacture a rather cheap explosive, due to the easy aquisition of the reagents. It should be possible to form the Dimethylol Urea in the precence of alkaline salts. If H2SO4 is used, one should get urethane plastic instead.

ANY info on this compound would be very nice.

And for you who feel like trying this synthesis, remember to make small batches first. Then larger ones.

[simply RED]

You are talking about:
O2N-O-CH2-NH-CO-NH-CH2-O-NO2.
There is no sense in making such compound. It is not gonna have low sensitivity.
Also low energy output!
It will have very high volume of detonation gasses.

[Dr_Pind]

RED, are you guessing, or are those facts? I mean, if you haven't got any data on this compound, I'd say that it's quite a statement to make. I'd say that it looks quite promising,even if it would take a booster to set it off!
What do you mean by high density? Many HE's have densities of about 1.6-1.7. Wouldn't a high density also result in a high detonation velocity?

[Hystrix]

This stuff would be used already if it had good properties. Since it's unknown I think it's not very good. Firstly, the stuffs having the '-CH2-O-NO2' group bound with N or O atom are unstable. Secondly, urea seems to be a ballast for explosives, it reduces their power (I don't mean cyclic nitroureas like K-6, they are the special stuffs). At last, I wonder how this latter can be produced. IMHO after nitrating di-methylol-urea you'll have 4 nitro groups: NO2-O-CH2-N(NO2)-CO-N(NO2)-CH2-O-NO2 (but this stuff will be also unstable). Thus I think it would be better to nitrate this polymer: [-CH2-NH-CO-NH-]n, and then to hydrolyse it. I think the final product will be MEDINA.

[knowledgehungry]

Does anyone have any ideas of a Cyclo peroxide? Perhaps very low temparatures would be nescessary?

[Dr_Pind]

Just been reading vol. 10 of 'Encyclopedia of Explosives and Related Items', and found some really interesting compounds, in the section 'urea addition compounds and salts'... Two explosives caught my attension, the first being
'calcium urea nitrate', a compound consisting of 6 urea molecules bonded to one molecule of Ca(NO3)2

Urea calcium Nitrate: 6(NH2)C:0 + Ca(NO2)2

....I believe it is 6 2(NH2)C:O ....NOT 6(NH2)C:0

mw: 524.46; N 5.34%; OB to C02 –36.61%;
cryst (from ethanol); mp, explodes on rapid heating
(Ref 1, p 56)

The other compound
Urea Sodium Nitrate: CH6NaN3O4
I dont know why it's called NITRATE when it has only a -NO2 group in it.

NH2 .H20
/
C=O
\
NH2.NaN02

CH6NaN304; mw 141 .09;
N 29.79%; OB to C02 –11.34%; prisms;
mp;explodes on heating. Soluble in water(Ref1,p55)

Has anyone ANY idea what kind of explosives these compounds are, how they are bonded together,stability, safety, or how they are synthesised?? It sure would be nice if they could be prepared by crystallizing a solution of urea and nitrate salts :rolleyes:
My guess is that they bond in a similar way to urea salts, like a hydrogen bond between the NH2 and metal, or maby they form some kind of crystalline grid like double salts: These are just ideas...
I have no idea if this could be the case...

Maby some primary properties due to the fact that they explode on heating?? Probably not..

[Mumble]

Attempting to peroxididise urea will form Carbamide peroxide. You may have heard of it, it's used in teeth whitening. To my knowledge it is has similar explosive parameters to UN. It is not extremely sensitive, but forms much more sensitive mixes with other chemicals. Sodium Dithionite comes to mind. I believe this was tested as an impact sensitive explosive.

The method I have for it's manufacture is from Lagen's site before it went down. It just involves reacting Urea with 30% Hydrogen peroxide in the presence of Gelatine. I can't be certain what will happen with the presence of acids as with the proceedure for making other more famous peroxides. I image it could possibly make Carbamide Peroxide Hydrochloride/Sulfate. The H2O2 is only attached to one amine group. It never hurts to try and find out what would happen, as long as it is a safe distance from anything valuable.

[FireFly]

This thread (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=66850#post66850post66850) may be of some help for you. The thread is more on the synthesis of urea, however, it does go over some of its chemical properties

[hokk]

Let's say you have nitro urea. Could you make a nitrosamine group of the second amine group through reaction with nitrous acid, to give nitro-nitroso-urea?

NH2-CO-NH-NO2 --> NH2-CO-N(NO)-NO2

Or is the nucleophilic strength of the amine group too weak?

[Methodologisch]

Attempting to peroxididise urea will form Carbamide peroxide. You may have heard of it, it's used in teeth whitening. To my knowledge it is has similar explosive parameters to UN. It is not extremely sensitive, but forms much more sensitive mixes with other chemicals. Sodium Dithionite comes to mind. I believe this was tested as an impact sensitive explosive.

IMO Ureaperoxide is quite usefull salt in aqueous gelled explosives. It contains about 36% H2O2 by weight, more then most stock H2O2 solutions. The biggest advantage is that UP, compared to H2O2 solutions has it's peroxide group bound the fuel at the molecular level. The salt can be made quite easely by adding urea to H2O2 in a 2:3 molar ratio @ 60oC, and allowing the water to slowly evaporate at room temperature.

An example of a pretty good oxygen balanced mix could be:
43% Aluminium
20% Urea Peroxide
35% Hydrogen Peroxide (30%)
02% Guar Gum

This stuff is cap sensitive, and is a little bit less powerful then ANNM. The cool thing about it, is that it gives pretty nice fireballs because of the aluminum and hydrogen gas formed by detonation. :D

[Ethyl]

Very interesting. How fine was the aluminium you used?

And in a previous post I read that you make urea peroxide by mixing 30% H2O2 and urea and then letting the solution stand so the water evaporates. I would make urea peroxide from 6% H2O2 as 30% is temporarily unavailable to me. As using 6% peroxide would introduce much water in the solution, it would take a long time to evaporate. So I would like to know could I boil the water away (not to dryness) or would urea peroxide decompose from the heat?

Has anyone ever detonated pure urea peroxide?

And one more question. I have heard that urea nitrate can be made from HCl, NH4NO3 and CO(NH2)2. Could that work?

[hereno]

IMO Ureaperoxide is quite usefull salt in aqueous gelled explosives.

Quite a bold statement considering you copied your information from here science madness.

Though he makes no mention of this actually being tested, and you gave the same ratio but just changed the H2O2 concentration :rolleyes: Did you test this?

[megalomania]

HED for you Methodologisch...

[Setharier]

All right. Let's talk about urea. I need some for purifying HNO3, but have no idea where to get some. I'm definitely asking NOT for a link to a shop, but inform what commercial products does have some of it in themselves that can be dissolved out of it?

On the other hand, more interesting question for our chemists, is it phossible to make urea by yourself by mixing dry ice(CO2) and ammonia together? Or, the simper and more disgusting way, piss in a flask and boil it up? :D

[Charles Owlen Picket]

It's sort of a super nitrate at 46% active soil nitrogen availability; so it burns lawns (that's the piss burns from Fido). IF you live out in the sticks it's VERY common in 40lbs sacks. If you're stuck in some city; hit the hydroponic stores. If you're really in a jam, & just want a pound, get some "cold packs".

Actually, if you DO have pets and want a weed killer that is non-toxic to your little friends; Urea will work on weeds when used in a unturned soil spread. So if you're a city boy and need a story as to why your looking for a nitrate in Summer: there's your answer. You try and tell anyone who lives in a rural area you need a nitrate in Summer for your "crops".....you'll look like a asshole or a "mad-bomber".

[thelasttrueone]

Careful with those cold packs, in my experience the ammonium nitrate variety is more common. This will likely change in the future due to ammonium nitrate crackdowns.

[Setharier]

Yep, I have looked around for urea cold packs but haven't managed to find one. At least two of them said honestly they got AN inside, but two pack marks didn't mentioned anything they had inside themselfs.

I found out the near(30km..) agristore sells 28% AN, KNO3 and Urea in 20-400kg bags. 20kg of urea is just a little bit too much for me who needs only some grams to purify HNO3, althrough this can also be done with dry air.. Anyway I need all three of these, just avoid looking suspicious when asking them... :rolleyes:

Btw, I found out here was AN denial law since 1995, but it outpassed in 2005. Perhaps due to that when the law was on, there were bombers but when there weren't, nobody bothered.