Use for AN in pyro

[Ammonal]

I have been thinking for a while now about using AN to synthesise NANO3 using NAOH because I live in a rural area it is easy for me to get AN ( I have a 1 tonne sack in my shed for the farm) and my interest in rockets requires lots of KNO3, which I just cant get.
So today I had a rough run at this theory of mine.
I dissolved the AN 15% fertiliser (1kg) in a litre of water, and then added 150grams NAOH to this (as this should displace in a 1:1 ratio). This evolved high concentrations of ammonia gas (as expected). When all the NAOH was dissolved I simmered the solution at 60 degrees for 4 hours, this reduced the original litre to 275mls. I then poured 50mls of this solution into a flat plastic tray. this was left in the sun for a further hour. A large amount of white crystals had formed in the tray when I returned. I powdered these crystals, added 1/5th charcoal and then took a spoonful and stuck a match to it. The result was a near complete combustion of the powder. The rest of this I use tomorrow. I hope to post some pictures soon and maybe some video.
Finally, I looked through the posts and could not see anything that resembled this (not to sound kewlish) so I created a new thread for the sake of using AN for something other than high eplosives, and I think this is valuable for alot of people.
Does anyone have thoughts/suggestions/experiences to share about this reaction?

[vulture]

I think there are some threads that are somewhat similar, but I'll leave it at the mods to decide.

You might want to try making NaNO3 with NH4NO3 and Na2CO3, as (NH4)2CO3 is unstable in solution IIRC. NaOH is a bit too valuable for my liking to waste it making NaNO3.

Furthermore, if well applied, NH4NO3 is a superior oxidizer for rocketry (atleast compared to NaNO3) because it complete decomposes into gas. I would however suggest using a coating agent to protect it from moisture.

BTW, you dried your AN in the sun? Must have been hot!

[Ammonal]

Yes it was a 35degree day, but I was not drying AN; I was evaporating the water and ammonia from solution to leave mostly NaNO3.
I can buy NaOH for AU$5/kg (99.5%) which is the easiest thing for me to get OTC.
Thankyou for your suggestion vulture, I will try substituting Na2CO3 into the reaction. My main goal with this experiment was to make KNO3, now if I can get large quantities of KOH or KCl I can make KNO3 in a couple of steps fairly easily.
I want to do this because I know people who live near me and would do anything and pay anything for KNO3, these people are are fond of the KNO3/SUGAR smoke mixture.
I would be interested in researching using AN for a rocket fuel oxidiser but I will search for that, But I would at least have to purify the 15% of AN in the fertiliser to 90-100% to have the fuel work efficiently.

EDIT: Thanks for pointing out my spelling Radon, Fixed now and in the future.

[Rhadon]

vulture:
You might want to try making NaNO3 with NH4NO3 and Na2CO3, That should work, but I would make KNO3 instead because NaNO3 is somewhat hygroscopic.

Ammonal:
Try to use correct spelling in chemical formulas (Na, not NA). It's hard to read them otherwise.

[0EZ0]

Well if you want to be really efficient, go out to the local co-op and pick up some KOH to produce KNO3. It should be found without too much trouble.

NH4NO3 + KOH ---> KNO3 + NH3 + H2O

Set up your apparatus so that in the first vessel you have both the Hydroxide and Nitrate mixed together either in solution or powdered and mixed. On addition of the solids with water, the mixture should heat up and evolve hydrous ammonia. Lead some tubing to an intermediate flask to act as a water trap in the event of negative pressure drawing the water from your final collection flask back though the tubing. The final vessel should be filled with distilled water to absorb the ammonia generated in the reaction.

You should be able to work out how to set up the glassware and even without the use of lab glassware, the setup is easily improvised.

Since ammonia solution is so useful, it is good to be able to save it from the above reaction also. With it you can produce ammonia complexes, hexamine on addition with formaldehyde solution, neutralize acidic solutions, prepare ammonium salts, etc.

[metal dragon]

Hello,
Would the reaction be able to go the other way? Such as using KNO3 and common household ammonia to yield NH4NO3 it’s just I have lots of KNO3 but no NH4NO3. How would one go about doing such an operation?

Any thing would be of great help.

[blindreeper]

I think NH3 won't displace K. Such as the way that K won't displace Na because it is higher on the periodic table. Sorry I am not as good as chem as you may think so I can't explain it in technical terms:(

[0EZ0]

There are a few reasons why it does not work in the opposite direction. The first that I can think of is that the reaction equilibrium is far far to the right as Ammonium nitrate is acidic because it is made from a strong acid and a mild base. Potassium Hydroxide is very basic or alkaline. Acids and bases react completely if stoichiometry is applied. It's simple acid/base chemistry. Look it up.

[blindreeper]

Originally posted by 0EZ0
Well if you want to be really efficient, go out to the local co-op and pick up some KOH to produce KNO3. It should be found without too much trouble.

NH4NO3 + KOH ---> KNO3 + NH3 + H2O

0EZ0, why then did you say that and go ahead and psot this?

Originally posted by 0EZ0
There are a few reasons why it does not work in the opposite direction. The first that I can think of is that the reaction equilibrium is far far to the left as Ammonium nitrate is acidic because it is made from a strong acid and a mild base. Potassium Hydroxide is very basic or alkaline. Acids and bases react completely if stoichiometry is applied. It's simple acid/base chemistry. Look it up.


??? Your not making much sense...

[Blackhawk]

Why do you want NH4NO3 anyway? I would find KNO3 much more usefull, but would it work by adding an ammonium salt to HNO3? Probably not the best idea for some reason I can't see atm but I thought it was worth asking. (Again I would've thought the HNO3 much more usefull than the NH4NO3)

[blindreeper]

http://roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/ammonium_nitrate.html

Yes you can make ammonium nitrate with HNO4 and NH4OH. Thats how farmers do it I think and thats why you can get low conc. HNO3 at farm supply places :)

[0EZ0]

Oops, don't mind that bit. I am not too awake today, I can't seem to tell left from right:D. I meant that the equilibrium is far to the right . I'll edit that post to correct.

Yes, you can use low concentrations of Nitric Acid and Ammonia Solution to make Ammonium Nitrate. As it is not a nitration at all so low concentrations of reactants can be used while still getting a complete reaction (acid/base chem). You should be able to find low concentration Nitric pretty cheap from a co-op. But take into consideration how much you would normally pay for high concentration acid versus the lower concentration with all that water content.

You are more likely to find Ammonium Nitrate before you find Nitric Acid though. So there is probably no point in mentioning the above for anything other than academic reasons.

[Ammonal]

NH4NO3 is useful if you can get high mesh Al powder for rocket fuels, or if you want explosives. But for normal black powder you need KNO3 or NaNO3 if you are desparate. This method was devised for making large amounts of high purity KNO3 from:
NH4NO3 + NaOH --> NH4OH + NaNO3
1:1 ratio

then
NaNO3 + KCl --> KNO3 + NaCl
again 1:1 ratio

The way I see it if you have NH4NO3 then you can make KNO3, from KNO3 you can make all kinds of things; pyro or explosive. Nitric acid for example, and in the process like OEZO pointed out you can collect the ammonia, so my conclusion is that NH4NO3 is useful on its own and as an intermediary reactant.
Thankyou to everyone who has replyed, you have my best wishes and I hope this may be useful to someone out there.

[poor man]

Ammonal, I beleive the reaction goes more like:

NH4NO3 + NaOH = NaNO3 + NH3 + H2O

If you have ever tried this reaction you would have smelled a strong smell of Ammonia Gas (I did).


Also You cannot say "150 grams of ammonium nitrate in the fertiliser per kilo, so I'll add 150 grams of NaOH"

The two have quite different molecular weights, so...

1 mole of NH4NO3 + 1 mole of NaOH = 1 mole of NaNO3 + 1 mole of NH3 + 1 mole of H2O

This shows a 1 to 1 molar ratio for the two reactants.

Therefore...

1 mole of NH4NO3 = 80 (approx)
1 mole of NaOH = 40 (approx)
1 mole of NH3 = 17 (approx)
1 mole of H2O = 18 (approx)
1 mole of NaNO3= 85 (approx)

So If you used..

80 grams NH4NO3 + 40 grams NaOH = 18 grams water + 17 grams NH3 + 85 grams of NaNO3

Lets see if my reaction adds up...

120 grams = 120grams

So from 80 grams of ammonium nitrate and 40 grams of sodium hydroxide you will get 85 grams of sodium nitrate!

Hope that helps.

Also a good way to find molecular weights is to take the atomic mass of each element in the formulae and add them together to find the total atomic mass of the ionic bond AKA the molecular weight.

[phoenix945]

I have searched this forum and google for information on how to make KNO3 from NH4NO3 and K2SO4 and found nothing. I haven’t been able to find K2CO3 or KOH to make it with but was wondering if this would work.

K2SO4 + NH4NO3 = KNO3 + SO3 + H2O

Or.

K2SO4 + NH4NO3 = KNO3 + SO2 + H2O + O

I will try this reaction and if it doesn’t work I will try to find a way of making K2SO4 into K2CO3. Later I will post my results and any other useful infomation i may have found, thank you.

[Jome skanish]

Phoenix, If you mix K2SO4 and NH4NO3 in aq. solution you will just get a mixture of aquaeous ions, the reaction SO3+H2O-->H2SO4 is so exothermic that it's almost impossible to reverse, and sulfate-ions in aquaeous solutions will never turn into neither sulfur trioxide or dioxide gas.

If you have access to cheap Ca(NO3)2 (calcium nitrate or "norwegian salpetre") it should be easy to mix this with K2CO3 or Na2CO3 to get a precipation of chalk and a solution of the corresponding nitrate. Let the chalk settle, and decant the solution. Just remember the crystall-water in Ca(NO3)2 when calculating the ammounts needed.

I just got back from a visit in a garden shop, here you can get 10 kilograms (22 pounds) for 89 skr (about 11$), and it's at least 95% pure! Now If only I could find K2CO3 :( ...its seems extremely hard to get for some reason, perhaps our goverment doesen't want us to make dangerous soaps or whatever potash is used for... :mad:

[croc]

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Campus/5361/kno3/ammnit.html
In an area like Australia it is hard to find KOH and K2CO3, the only potassium slats available are K2SO4 and KCl. A way that could be used to make KNO3 is reacting NH4NO3 and KCl, this way NaCl wont be left over but instead NH4Cl which is easier to remove, and even if NaCl is removed from solution traces will be left over to change your KNO3 yellow burning. Another good point to use only KCl and NH4NO3 is you won’t have to buy the NaOH
To remove the NH4Cl a steady heating could be held on a hotplate and the NH4Cl would evaporate leaving the KNO3 behind.

[FUTI]

Oezo is correct in his statement that KOH react with NH4NO3 producing NH3 and KNO3. If you can stand NH3 or can make a traping device for it you can make it.

BTW if the purity is not an issue did anyone consider using wooden ash? It is mainly K2CO3 and Na2CO3 so nitric acid neutralisation (or AN) will do the job.

[croc]

Do you mean the ash from burnt wood when it turnes into black coles or when it is a white ash?

[metafractal]

The white ash is the carbonate. The black is carbon. Make sure you re-crystallize it from water before use, but even so it will be very impure.

[FUTI]

Calcinating (I hope this term is the same in english) the ordinary wooden ash can produce white ash, or you can do as metafractal said to purify it. I remember when I check it (by experiment) in high-school that calculated as K2CO3 there were 10% of carbonate in ash.

The main reason I didn't want to mention this before is that I don't know what kind of purity of nitrate is requested for the job you mean to use it. As I already said it will be a mixture of K and Na carbonate so you will get a mixture of nitrates.

Forget the measuring of mass of reactants and go back to pH titration. Use mass of white ash as estimate for acid consumption (calculate it twice once for pure K2CO3 and get lowest number and then again for pure Na2CO3 to get highest number of grams of nitric acid needed for neutralisation). Use lower number of acid and check pH of solution than titrate it slowly with small amount of acid untill it is neutralised. Heat it up to 70 degrees and check the pH again (with temperature corection). Evaporate water this way untill crystalisation.

You can use AN and not nitric acid, but you need to heat it longer then. :(

[Pietruszkin]

OT: Ya can use AN to make volcanos etc. Just mix in the 50:50 ratio witch charcoal ;)

[Joeychemist]

OT: Ya can use AN to make volcanos etc. Just mix in the 50:50 ratio witch charcoal ;)

Pie

The mix you're thinking about is called ammonpulver, I find the best mix ratio is;

AN, 50%
C, 45%
AL, 5%

You must be sure that your ingredients are very dry and fine and well mixed. The AL must be especially fine.

If you don't have ice just put some AN in a bowl with some water and you have an instant cold bath. It dose not turn the water that cold though. I think about 5 degrees c. That's close enough to a regular ice bath.

[A2675770]

Ammonium nitrate rocket propellant

This propellant has a burn rate of 0.0385 inch/sec at 100psi and a burn rate of 0.04 inch/sec at 300psi. Burn temperature is approx. 1800K. And ISP=180.

Ammonium nitrate..........83%
Sucrose…………………10% Elastomeric binder (HTPB or other urethane plastic)…7%
Melt binder, add AN, then mix sucrose into mix and pour into mold of some kind.

Amide powder is also AN based composition, but I don’t know exactly what’s in it, does any body here have any ideas?


-A26

[Pots-O-Potash]

Amide Powder is a mix of Ammonium nitrate, potassium nitrate, and charcoal.
The formula is: 35-38% ammonium nitrate, 40-45% potassium nitrate, and 14-22% charcoal.

The most common formulation for ammonpulvur is 85% ammonium nitrate and 15% charcoal.

Also, for anyone worried about hygroscopisity (moisture sensitivity) sodium nitrate is worse than ammonium nitrate. It absorbs more water faster and has a higher tendency to become deliquescent (absorb enough moisture to form a puddle as a solution)

[Billy Bones]

In my routine search on the net, I found something that could be interesting for some of the members in this forum. I bet that I'm not the only one who watch the videos, but can't find other post on the subject.....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BSTZSEMeewY

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sqkcUgOFfAA

AN/Mg - ratio is 50/50 by weight,ignition by fuse. It's obviously a flash powder, similar to the ANAL mixture, but fuse sensitive because of the low temperature ignition of Mg. The components are cheap,which makes the mixture good choice for homemade pipe bomb filler.

I don't think the stuff is storage stable,but is useful for mix on side explosive.

To use it like high explosive in "Improvised munitions from ammonium nitrate" is given this ratio - 10 % Mg by weight, No.6 blasting cap, well not so bad for such a simple flash powder....

[Thermiteisfun]

from united nuclear.com


"NEGATIVE-X"

Ammonium Nitrate
14.0 grams

Ammonium Chloride
1.5 grams

Zinc Dust
34.5 grams


Comments:

Grind the Ammonium Nitrate and the Ammonium Chloride together in a mortar & pestle until they are a fine powder. Once the remaining chemical, Zinc Dust, is added, this composition will become extremely water sensitive. It is suggested that before you add the required amount of Zinc Dust, you move your experiment outdoors just in case accidental ignition occurs. As always, gloves and eye protection are called for.

Note that as soon as all the components are mixed, it will become extremely water sensitive!

Even a tiny amount of water will ignite the mixture. You must use this composition immediately
after it is made - DO NOT STORE IT - for any length of time, and do not mix it with other chemicals.
It's recommended to only mix this formula & conduct this experiment outside.

Take about a teaspoon full of the mixture and make a small pile of it on the ground. Make sure the ground is dry and that there are no flammable materials nearby (dry grass, paper, etc.).
Press a little indentation into the top of the pile and add a drop of water.
QUICKLY STAND BACK!
In a second or so it will bubble, hiss and smoke, and instantly burst into a blue-green flame.

WARNING
Don't store this mixture, it will eventually absorb enough water from the air to ignite on its own.
Use all that you make each time.
Do Not make large quantities at one time.
This is NOT something you want to mix on a rainy day.



Here's the chemical reaction that takes place:

1. Cl- (from NH4CL) acts as a catalyst on the decomposition of NH4NO3:

Cl-

NH4NO3-----------------> N2O(g) + 2 (H2O)(aq)

2. Water in the reaction causes the decomposition of more NH4NO3, which is an autocatalytic effect.

3. The reaction melts the NH4NO3 and allows the oxidation of the zinc. The overall reaction is:

Zn (s) + NH4NO3 (s)------> N2 (g) + ZnO (s) + 2 (H2O) (g)


I'd say that thats a wonderful use of AN in pyro!!!

[Zelot]

I'm not sure where I have heard this before, but you can just use regular salt (NaCl) instead of ammonium chloride for the catalyst. So basically, you could take a cold pack, some salt, and a few pennies to make "Negative-X". Does anyone know how hot this mixture burns? Maybe you could use it as a thermite igniter.