Tannerite Exploding Targets

[Kdogg]

What do these consist of? They are not the flash powder kind. They have chemicals you need to buy or somthing. IM confused with this somoen please explain.

[Mr Cool]

"I'm confused with this, someone please explain."
Explain what?

If you want to know what's in them, ring up the company and say you spilled it everywhere, and want to know what's in it so you can clean it up properly. I'd be surprised if it didn't say what it was on the container somewhere.

[kingspaz]

Kdogg, not a great post or new topic :mad:
it would help greatly if you had some pictures and a good decription other than 2 lines of crap. try the company website maybe...

[10fingers]

Are you talking about the targets that when struck with a bullet they explode? If so the composition is:
6 pts potassium chlorate
1 pt sulfur
1 pt antimony trisulfide
1 pt magnesium, 200 mesh
1 pt aluminum, -325 mesh
.5 pt calcium carbonate

[Madog555]

i dont think he is refering to that, he is refering to tantelite or tannerite (watever)

im 90% sure that its ANNM. there was a previous topic that had a link to the homepage and NBK said that it was ANNM

i have the targets that have flash in them though, those are cool

[10fingers]

Yea, you're right, it's not the same thing. I was just reading a thread about it on alt.eng.explosives. None of them knew exactly what it was made out of either except it was ammonium nitrate based.

[mark]

WE dismantled a flash target today and made a mini exploding target out of it. We put about a half tsp of flash inside an FC and put a roll of caps inside. When we shot it with a wadd cutter pelet it went off with a nloveley flash and boo,m

[cutefix]

Interesting stuff,it is likely a binary explosive and not a composite explosive.It was even claimed by its manufacturers as two component explosives.
Again I do not believe it contains not only ammonium nitrate,but may contain a certain percentage of ammonium perchlorate.(for better sensitivity and oxygen balance).
One customer who happened to be knowledgeable in explosive science claimed its detonation rate is 5000-7000m/s.The range of ANNM binaries.Therefore it belongs to an HE category and not as low explosives.
Check this out: <a href="http://www.skylightexplosives.com/she_exploding_targets.html" target="_blank">http://www.skylightexplosives.com/she_exploding_targets.html</a>

[nbk2000]

Perhaps the sensitizer is a solution of potassium chlorate. It's been said that ammonium chlorate is extrememly shock sensitive, so this might be how it's done.

[mark]

Think theyll ship those regular mail? What do you think It would take to detonate one of them?

[EP]

On the site it says a .22 or more will set them off, but that they are relatively insensitive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> I did a small impact test ? Hammer drop test ?. This was done with a 5-pound & 15-pound hammer. A drop of twenty-four inches against a hard surface failed to cause a detonation. I was not able to detonate it with any hammer or drop test. Friction also failed to cause fire or detonation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">

[andreas]

<a href="http://www.boomershoot.org/" target="_blank">http://www.boomershoot.org/</a>
maybe this helps

[Anthony]

Shouldn't there be an MSDS for these things (I can't see one on google), or maybe your volumes of product info NBK?

My money is on it's ANNM.

I don't see how making and detonating a HE is legal for joe public though?

[nbk2000]

I've never been interested in exploding targets, thus have never searched for info on them.

[Anthony]

I was thinking of your set of Thomas Guides that your ex-roomie dug out of a dumpster, although these tagets might be post yr2000.

[Zambosan]

I was always under the impression that they were ANNM... but come to think of it, in Ragnar Benson's Improvised "C4", they do a few impact tests comparing ANNM to straight dynamite with a rifle at about 50 yards... and the ANNM charges never detonate. Must be something else (or in addition).

[Madog555]

yeah, it has to be, i have also seen that video

[nbk2000]

At $8.50 for a single target, it's overpriced whatever it is. Hell, it'd be cheaper to make pure NG at that cost.

And I bet THAT'D be a lot more fun to shot! :D

Call and ask them for an MSDS sheet.

[mark]

Hey all. I made an exploding target today! It was the cap to an FC with a nickel in the back. In front, there was a pinch or left over AP from making caps. I atatched the thing to a slightly dented coke can and set it off with my bb gun. Here are the pics :)

<img src="http://www.paintballresource.org/ubb/userpics/200.jpg" alt="" />

<img src="http://www.paintballresource.org/ubb/userpics/199.jpg" alt="" />

<small>[ April 15, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: mark ]</small>

[Kdogg]

Jesus Kingspan! I know nothing about these nor have any, sorry for asking! Why do you think I asked though? Delete it if you dont like it!

[kingspaz]

kdogg, if that was aimed at me sorry.
it wasn't clear what your question was or what you where on about really. i chose not to delete it because it needed discussing and you don;t seem k3\/\/\/l

[EP]

Here is the patent info for one type of exploding target using a flash comp.

<a href="http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='4498677'.WKU.&OS=PN/4498677&RS=PN/4498677" target="_blank">exploding target</a>

[EventHorizon]

Looks like this is an old topic, but this is the first place I came when I saw one of these targets in action. Make no joke about them, they are QUITE impressive. Not quite as impressive as ANNM (which these are not!) I have some pictures of the ground where one detonated and will post on the forum FTP (as soon as I email Ctrl_C for me logon info :p ). They look to be potassium chlorate (didn't look like ammonium nitrate) with an aluminum "sensitizing" mix. I'm going to buy 20 and see if they will initiate via HMTD and also attempt to figure out how to make them myself since even $4.90 ea. is still expensive.

[EventHorizon]

10Fingers:

Looks like that formula doesn't work very well. I tried it and only received a VERY small detonation strewing the rest of the contents of the bottle all over the place.

[rbt]

I spoke with the seller of the targets after buying a case of them. They are shipped UPS in two separate boxes. One box contains bottles of white powder (ammonium nitrate). The other contains a container of sensitizer which is a mix of aluminum powder, titanium sponge, and zirconium hydride (a powerful reducing agent). I did a patent search and there is a patent on such a composition, although I do not recall the exact number. I can verify that they work extremely well.

[rbt]

I looked up the patent on the mix. It is U.S. patent #4304614

[EventHorizon]

I don't think that the white powder is ammonium nitrate. I've placed a gram or so on a plastic lid and it has yet to show any signs of deliquesence(sp).
He states in his video that "...you mix the nitrate...", however the mixed powder with the "catalyst" showed no sign of being flash because they show you tests where they stick a fuse in it as well as putting a propane torch on one without detonation.

Additionally, mine came shipped in the same box; not seperately.

I plan on sticking a cap in one this weekend and will post results.

EDIT:

Anyone know what the "white powder" could possibly be? I placed some KNO₃ next to some of it and it looks pretty damn similar. I plan on adding some to conc. H₂SO₄ to see if NO_x is present. If the 'catalyst' contains several ingredients, does anyone have suggestions on how to seperate them. Its a rather dark powder which looks like it contains (as least to me) Al, SbS₃, but does not "smell" like it contains sulfur.

<small>[ October 23, 2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: EventHorizon ]</small>

[EventHorizon]

I believe now these might just be ammonium nitrate sensitized with Al/Mg "catalyst". As I was mixing some up today I noticed that the whote powder left on the funnel started picking up moisture and after it had sat a while the residue on the funnel became a liquid.

I also noticed just how insensitive they are. Non-reliable detonations when shot at with a .308 at 90 yds. Tomorrow in goes some nitromethane and a 1g HMTD cap. If its KNO3 I'm thinking 1g HMTD won't set it off but will definately initiate ANNM.

I've also got some pics of the damage they will do as well is a sweet video frame capture showing the flash at the time of detonation and the shock wave.

[steve smith]

I have talked to him via email about his targets, and i can't remember FOR SURE that it was AN, or pot perch. I realllllyyyy, wanna say AN based, but do remember a big thing about them being set off with a .22. It's imposible to set AN based charges off with a .22. THis is why i want to say perch. based.

He also adds in some graphite for smoke. AP comps work well for this osrt of thing, even making some colored ones.

I have experimented, --plenty-- with exploding targets. They are a --lot-- of fun. I have tried nearly everything with AN based targets, and my main goal is always to be able to set them off with a .22, which is nearly impossible with AN comps.

[Macgyver]

What would be the best explosive to use for making exploding targets that doesn't require more than the impact of a bbgun fired at it?

1.HMTD
2.AP (Maybe a bit too sensitive for my taste!).
3.Perchlorate based flash powder, sensitized by addidtion of SbS3 or Sb.
4.Any other suggestions?

[kingspaz]

if its going to be sensitive for a bbgun to set it off then obviously its going to need to be rediculously sensitive, much more than AP.
you'd have to use armstrongs mix or somthing with extreme sensitivity which means if you pick it up too fast you have less fingers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[Anthony]

AP/HMTD will reliably detonate from a BB strike, if there's a hard backing to it.

Dunno whether sensitised flash would, I've never needed sensitised flash so have no experience with it.

Also, what kind of gun would the BB be fired from, and at what range? Obviously power level varies considerably across the range of "BB" guns available.

[Macgyver]

I think armstrongs mix is out of the question due to the fact that I want to keep all of my fingers intact.

I'll research the subject a bit more and get back with my findings...

[Macgyver]

Anthony: I'm using a CO2 powered gun with .177 lead ammo, with a velocity of 130 m/s.

So I agree with you that it probably would work with both AP and HMTD.

But would it set of a KClO4/Al/S based flash or would it need to be KClO3 based or have something added to it to increse sensitivity?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that a small amount of animony (Sb) or Antimony trisulfide (SbS3) will make flash compositions both more sensitive to friction/impact.

Sulfur might also have that effect, at least with KClO3.

[kingspaz]

anthony? what sort of bbguns where you thinking of? the G10 sort of things firing metal balls? i was thinking of the airsoft type firing plastic balls.

[Anthony]

I was going on the American common definition of "BB gun", being ANY gun which fires a projectile by compressed air or CO2. Be it a G10 firing at 0.5ft/lb or a multishot PCP at 20ft/lb - both common. But more likely a CO2 gun or multi-stroke pneumatic (pump up) that fires actual BBs rather than pellets, which do so at an average of about 8-10ft/lb.

Softair guns fire at fraction ft/lb and I didn't consider them. Although the more powerful "serious" airsoft guns might set off a pouch of AP taped to a metal plate at close range.

[Macgyver]

kingspaz: Sorry, I didn't even think about soft airguns, since that would require a ridiculous sensitive compound... (Such as KClO3+P or NI3 - But I rather keep my fingers where they belong :) ). :D

Actually I consider AP a bit too sensitive, but I'm going to make some for this test anyway just to see the difference between HMTD and AP in sensitivity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[kingspaz]

don't worry, was my fault for being dumb.
anyway, what about rifle primers? a target on a sheet of metal with a rifle primer behind the bullseye?

[IPN]

Ok, I made 5 targets (metal plates) by placing 0,5g of HMTD on every plate and putting some tape on the HMTD.
Then I took my CO2 powered rifle and "BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG" they all succeeded on detonation!!

The metal plates were quite deformed, but none of them were broke

These are really great, it gives you some feeling rather than just shooting at some tin cans. (What about filling the tin can with HMTD :D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D ) Well back to shooting...

[NickSG]

be extremly careful using metal and HMTD. They have been know to react together, sometimes voilently enough to explode if left together for long enough.

[Macgyver]

I know.... I used to be in Swedish Infomania under another name few years ago, so I have worked pretty much with HMTD and other fun stuff :)

The idea was to have a metal plate right behind the container with the explosive to make sure the impact was hard enough to cause detonation or ignition (in the case with flash powder).

I will get around to doing the testing during this week, had to make some AP, because I usually do not store that... HMTD however is stable enough to store even though some claims it's not. I've had a film canister of HMTD stored for over a year and it's still good and stable when I tested some of it yesterday.

AP on the other hand tends to sublimate and crystalize in places you don't want it if stored too long, like in the threads of the canisters lid and other no-good places, thats one reason why I like HMTD more than AP.

At one time I had a 0.5 litre bottle of HMTD (Left over from when we were testing various catalysts for the reaction to make HMTD, and I was asked to get rid of it because T. didn't want it around at home, took down a tree nice and clean....

Okay enough ranting of old times, what I am going to test is the following:

1. One target with 5 g of HMTD attached to it.
2. One target with 5 g of AP attached to it.
3. One target with 5 g of Flash attached to it (KClO4/Al/S based).

I am unceratin if #3 will work at all, but I think both #1 and #2 will definitively do the trick :) #3 should defintively work if KClO3 was substituted for KClO4, but unfortunately I don't have any <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[IPN]

Ok, I made another test.
This was done by making 2 targets (again metal plates). On to the target #1 were placed 1g of HMTD and on the target #2 1g of lead styphnate.

Then I shot them with my bbgun (shoots plastic bb’s at 120m/s) and both of the targets worked.

I guess I will start a mass production of these HMTD targets...

[EP]

Here are videos of tannerite targets:

http://www.okiebigbores.com/goodies.htm

I hear the guy that ran the business stopped making them because the legal stuff was getting to be a major pain in the ass.

[Unknown]

A friend of mine (lives in California) received a box of tannerite targets today. There were two different containers, one with a fine dark gray powder that looks like Aluminum powder. The other container contains a fine white granular powder. Two targets were ordered, and the box arrived with one container containing 306g (w/container) of the gray powder, and twenty tall narrow containers containing 239g each of the white powder.
The grey powder container is marked " ZrH/Tis/ catalyst target formula". The white powder containers' contents are unidentified except for a label saying it's for persons over 21 without felony convictions (sorry NBK, you're probably able to make the stuff on your own, or something better anyway). It also has the company address and says that in order to comply with the law, you have to use it as soon as you mix it. This is because of the requirement to comply with storage of explosive materials, or the average Joes inability to. So it probably should not be mixed in your car with the family driving on the freeway in rush hour traffic because you will have to use it!
I did a search on the net here, webelements.com (http://www.webelements.com/) , for "ZrH" and Tis. ZrH came up as Zirconium (II) Hydride, and Tis as Titanium (IV) Sulphide.
A test was conducted with the powders. A small sample of each powder was exposed to flame to observe the reaction. The gray powder sparked intermittently, the white powder did not react at all. A small sample of each powder was mixed together and put to flame which yielded intermittent sparks the same as the gray powder alone. A wooden popsicle stick was lit and the red embers were put to the mixed powders which yielded the aforementioned result. The white powder emitted an odor similar to Kerosene.
I was hoping that some of you might have heard of mixtures containing Zirconium (II) Hydride, Titanium (IV) Sulphide and some kind of an oxidizer.

[tjh]

I am new to this site, but can say that the Tannerite composition is no great mystery. It is merely powdered AN plus pyro grade aluminum mixed in a 95/5 weight ratio. Somewhat greater sensitivity with increased aluminum, maybe upwards of 10%. Since the cost of Al is somewhat prohibitive, the 5% mix is suggested. I fill 8oz. milk cartons with this target mix for a very powerful target. Even small black film canisters provide an amazing report! Very powerful on their own, with no need to add nitromethane or any other ingredient. However, this only works with high power bullets--.223, .308, etc. I haven't managed to set the mixture off with any handgun ammo or .22 cal. (darn!). My shooting buddies and I have shot thousands (yes, literally) of these targets. With our sources of AN and Al, we have a cost of a small milk carton full at about $.35 each. We mix our target mix at a cost of about $.70 per pound--$70 for 100 pounds. Milk cartons are free and come from elementary school cafeteria garbage cans. They go through a thousand each day. Just rinse them and dry in the air.

Also, very important, is the fact that this is our most effective booster for a number 6 cap. We can get ANY sleepy mixture to go boom. Damp/wet prilled ANFO goes high order with this mix.
Try it and you'll see.

[powdermunkey]

I bought a couple of cases of these targets last year. At $8.50 per target, I decided to analyze the contents and see what was so expensive. Tanner's website is secretive about the formula, but an earlier post here says he claims the white powdered component is ammonium perchlorate and nitrate mix, and the 'catalyst' is zirconium hydride and titanium sponge. The stuff of his that I tested was straight AN, and the 'catalyst' is plain dark flake aluminum. He's making a great profit, considering that a 60 pound bag of AN is about $8.00 at a farm supply store, and dark Aluminum flake is about $20.00 a pound. I tried making one yesterday with plain prilled AN and bright flake Al, and it worked just fine. The bright flake is about $12.00 a pound at skylighter.com.

[powdermunkey]

I went out today and shot a few of these targets and had a great time. A full 24 oz. beer can (full of Al sentized AN) tucked inside a defunct HP printer leaves nothing but a cloud of smoke and an echo. Well, except for the crater... Amazingly powerful little critters.

[beartooth]

Got some of the 1/2 pound targets, and shot at them this weekend. .223 rounds set them off well, as does the 25-06.

The company recommends shooting it from 100 yds. Not worth it.

50yds gives a much better feel. Mostly a flash, and a loud thud that you can feel in your chest. A bit pricey, so I was looking for how to make my own. That's how I stumbled on this forum.

[Fuze2short]

This is J.H.'s mix......quoted from his site.

1500 Grams Ammonium Nitrate. Prilled, not ground.
400 Grams Potassium Chlorate. 200 mesh powder.
3 tablespoons Ethylene Glycol.

Mix the EG with the AN until thoroughly blended.
Mix in the PC.
It will look very much like mixed curd size cottage cheese.
Seal in airtight containers.
Do not pack! The mixture must be slightly fluffy to detonate easily.

Cautions:
The risks are many. I wear a flak jacket, eye protection, gloves, and hearing protection.
There are probably more cautions to be made that I can possibly remember.
Absolutely do not store the mix, mix it and use it on sight.
Remember to respect it, 1/2 lb of this mix is more than lethal.

.22 stingers will set off this comp..;)

[jagster]

Does anyone know if a .17 HMR will set off the standard ammonium nitrate/pyro AL mix? This is the fastest rifle I currently own and have been doing tests with it with no luck...but I was using 350 mesh AL. Do you think this would be enough to set it off or do I need the pyro aluminum?

I've been trying to figure out how to make things that are set off with .17 HMR. The standard mixture from daniel tanner WILL go off with the .17. Its kinda expensive though :)

Also is there any way to dry out ammonium nitrate once it has received some moisture? Will simple baking do the trick..assuming its at a lower temperature then its detonation AND decomposition point?

[Fuze2short]

Jagster - you need a higher mesh Al, also is it spherical Al or flake?

I know this has been asked on these boards many times before, but here's the comp..

The mix jagster mentioned consists of:

Oxidizer:

85% by weight ammonium nitrate powder - about 200 mesh

15% by weight ammonium perchlorate

Preferred catalyst composition (fuel) :

90% by weight explosive grade aluminum powder - about 600 mesh, flake being obviously superior, 5% by weight titanium sponge - about 325 mesh, and 5% by weight zirconium hydride - about 200 mesh.

At the risk of subjecting myself to scrutiny:
To the best of my knowledge this mix detonates, not deflagrates...

PS- Baking the AN will be fine just do so under low heat.

[jagster]

I got it to work :-). Its weird on the patent it says you use 8:1 oxidizer to fuel ratio. I weighed out exactly how he says its mixed and its nowhere near 8:1 but rather closer to 95 or something to 1. I did the standard 5% al <2 micron flake :D and the 85/15 oxidizer stuff and a small ziplock bag destroyed a 6 x 6. Very nice :-).

[Qew]

Wash prills in 91% Isopropyl, drain, and bake (preheat the oven and then TURN IT OFF-P.s. leave a note on the front as not to incinerate your wife or children from latent alocohol fumes iginiting when they turn on the oven to bake cookies not knowing your in the middle of your project)

Pre-heat oven to 400 F, turn off
Lay prills on cookie sheet
Check on them periodically

Remove waxy, flat, clump from cookie sheet periodically. It serves to make the prills more dense, and therefore less sensitive.

After about 2 hrs, the prills should be considerably lighter than when you began, and their presence in the room should not stink the room up of alcohol. Now it's safe (for me) -for YOU, to bake those same prills on 400 for about 20 minutes. This should draw out a little more of the waxy substance, which will pool to the end of the cookie sheets.

Prills should be VERY light now.

2 TSP 600 grey aluminum powder
1 cup prills
Mix in bag until all prills are coated and grey

form into ball using duct tape (tightly)

will detonate even with .17HMR round from 50 yds. Beyond 50 yds, =/>.223 @2900+ needed for positive detonation.

After shooting Tannerite, I'm just not that impressed. The idea is great, but the marketability necessitates that it be not as sensitive, and more "showy", (white smoke additive via Titanium sponge), and less powerful than something you could theoretically make at home for 1/10th the cost, and 150% of the perfomance.

[25elipto]

"zirconium hydride" "potassium nitrate" binary. Thats what Dan uses...

The last thing the Feds will let him sell. Which is a good thing IMHO.

[c4550]

I am new to this site, but can say that the Tannerite composition is no great mystery. It is merely powdered AN plus pyro grade aluminum mixed in a 95/5 weight ratio.


I too have had good luck with 95% AN and 5% 600 mesh AL powder. It's a very forgiving mix. You can grind the AN with an old blender without going through the trouble of washing it with alcohol.

I use old plastic pop bottles to hold the AN/AL. I have only used rifle bullets (5.56, 7.62x39 and 30-06) to detonate it. Therefore, I don't know if a .22lr will set it off. I'll test it the next time I make a batch.

[waxman]

I still like MEKP in a ziplock bag for exploding targets.
Any suggestions as to how to add smoke? Maybe colored smoke?

[lman]

Does anyone know if KNO3 sensitized with pyro aluminum and perhaps some KCLO3 could be coaxed into going high-order when hit by a centerfire rifle bullet? Its less hygroscopic than NH3NO3, and I happen to have some lying around, I just havent had the opportunity to go out and test it.

[nbk2000]

It's the ammonium chlorate formed by mixing AN and KClO3 that makes the targets sensitive enough to detonate by bullet impacts.

KNO3 won't disassociate like that, so it won't behave like the AN-based targets do.

[SafetyLast]

Try a powdered dye for colored smoke effects, this may not work however as in pyrotechnics you need a low temperature mixture that does not break down the dyes and just acts as a gas generator to disperse the dye as an aerosol. I used to make APRC targets, these were made by placing a tablespoon of AP onto the back of a 8" or 12" NRA paper target, right behind the x ring. Rubber cement was mixed to the AP and allowed to dry. When shot with a .22 These targets were loud as hell and blew the targets to postage stamp size shreds that would float in the air like confetti. Ammonium Chlorate is ridiculously sensitive, kind of suprised that they can sell those tannerite targets legally.

[waxman]

SafetyLast- thanks!

Mixing/stirring AP with rubber cement sounds a little risky. Couple of crystals grinding together may shred your target prematurely, no?

My next to try is MEKPAN in a table tennis ball. Cute little guys, yellow with the smiley face! I'm closing the fill hole with rubber cement, and topping that with a golf tee. FORE! :)

[SafetyLast]

I've certainly never had any problems with the mixture, I just add enough rc to make a gel consistency.
(Heptane and Petroleum Distillates in rc make a good solvent for relatively safe mixing as long as you are cautious). The latex in the RC seems to raise the density of the AP while still keeping it slightly elastic, the material has survived a hit from a multiple pump BB gun at close range so I'm assuming it can withstand at least a couple Joules of impact energy.

Your MEKPAN tennis ball sounds like a fun device:D

So Tannerite targets are zirconium hydride and potassium nitrate??
I missed that part. :rolleyes:

[Cindor]

Won't the MEKP dissolve the Celulose Nitrate in the table tennis ball ?

Maybe you will get something like Gel Dynamite.

[waxman]

No dissolution over a week. Looking for ideas on a filler material so I don't need to use the whole 26 ml to fill the ball. Sand, maybe?

[Cindor]

Amonnium Nitrate and sawdust instead of an inert material ;)

[SafetyLast]

If you're already using MEKPAN why not simply use more AN? IIRC a good MEKPAN mixture was 11ml of MEKP to 100g of AN, more than sufficient for making several of your ping-pong ball targets. I would NOT suggest the addition of grit or sand into something that contains a sensitive peroxide, doing so could potentially sensitize the explosive to a dangerous state. I lost a couple fingertips from pressing AP by hand 3 years ago, I later discovered that the reason for this was because the AP I was using contained small bits of solid plastic material that had contaminated the batch. Luckily it was only .5 grams, anything more and I probably would have lost a hand.
A similar technique is used in the pyrotechnics industry for impact sensitive firecrackers where silica or gravel is coated with a small amount of some already sensitive primary such as the Silver Fulminate in common "Snap-Pops".
If you need something to fill the remaining space in the ball use an epoxy filler or plumbers joint compound which you allow to fully harden before adding the explosive.

[jagster]

So I have a question. I recently obtained some potassium chlorate and I'm looking to produce a 22LR detonateable target. I want to make something such as the "scarecrow rimfire" 1/2 lb targets you can search google for. I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how these are made or what composition? I know someone earlier mentioned ammonium nitrate with chlorate and then some antifreeze that would be set off by a .22 stinger. I will definately have to try that. I want to set it off with standard .22 round though but I can survive if I have to use stingers I think :).

What about adding some KClO3 to regular ammonium nitrate/Al mixtures? I have heard people say don't mix chlorates with nitrates for whatever reason but appearently BOOMERSHOOT guys do and that previous formula I mentioned does.

My last thing is maybe a chlorate flash? 70/30 Al/clorate might work? I don't really want to add sulfur to it as this is not a good idea ever. I have not had anytime to test any of these but finals will soon be over :).

Any good chlorate or whatever 22 mixtures would be appreciated. I know they do it reliably with that scarecrow mix...I ordered one in hopes to somehow figure out whats in it.

Thanks!

[Alexires]

jagster - Normally there is a good reason people tell you not to do things. A little research would have turned up this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_chlorate) nugget of gold.

"This salt (Ammonium Chlorate) can form when ammonium compounds, such as ammonium nitrate, and chlorates, such as potassium chlorate, are combined (mechanically or in solution). Ammonium chlorate is a very unstable oxidizer and will decompose, sometimes violently, at room temperature. It will explode when exposed to sunlight for a few minutes."

Don't do it, you will lose bits of yourself in a way where finding them won't help.

If you have AN, go for some APAN maybe? Or if you have Al and AN, save your Chlorate for something better and just use AN/Al as stated here before?

Repeat: Don't put the KClO3 in with the AN. Either just use AN/Al or you could try a flash mixture (KClO3/Al) and shoot that.


Edit: Ammonium Perchlorate (NH4ClO4) is "stable", Ammonium Chlorate (NH4ClO3) is very NOT stable. Don't mix them up in the future, it could mean the difference between having some fun and missing a hand.

[jagster]

How come people mix those two up anyway haha. I guess if they did it in a short time it wouldn't hurt anything. I know boomershoot guys mix up thousands of pounds of this stuff and they havn't had any bad accidents (or at least none they will admit :D).

I guess then I wonder what is in the scarecrow rimfire targets that can be "set off by a .22LR from up to 150 yards away"...that must be pretty sensitive.

Regular AN and Al is pretty hard to set off...barely with a .17hmr 2550fps and good with a 223 or 22-250. I guess for now the only option is the chlorate flash...or chlorate with sulfur ;). I know I know stupid but we'll see.

I don't have the stuff to make AP and it sounds complicated :P. The tannerite guy uses ammonium perchlorate with AN to "balance" the oxygen or something I guess? I think it makes it a little more sensitive but its still pretty hard to set off. I got it to work with my .17 but I don't think I have tried straight AN and Al.

And "save your chlorate for something better"...like what? :)

[Alexires]

jagster - How come phone made a couple kg of AP anyway? We'll never know.

True, you PROBABLY wouldn't have any problems if you mixed it on site and shot it a minute later. Just remember not to store it. If you don't set it off, you will have some UXO you will have to take care off, and no one wants to do that.

Chlorate....flashbangs? Making into perchlorate? Various smoke compositions? There is a plethora of things you could do with chlorate.

We aren't talking about you trying to set it off with a piece of hot nichrome, you are SHOOTING at it. Its can afford to be a little "insensitive".

"chlorate with sulfur. I know I know stupid but we'll see."

What the hell does that mean? Yes, mixing sulfur with chlorates is stupid. While again, it might not spontaneously detonate when you add the sulfur, I personally wouldn't risk it unless I made absolutely sure the sulfur was dry and used it IMMEDIATELY after mixing.

From here (http://www.jpyro.com/journal/issue_12/index.htm)
Abstract: Fireworks formulations were modified to produce compositions containing sulfur/chlorate mixtures, and their thermal stability and mechanical sensitiveness were studied. The results indicate that the presence of sulfur/chlo*rate mixtures in fireworks compositions reduces the ignition temperatures to values well below those obtained with compositions that do not contain the sulfur/chlorate mixture and generally increases the sensitiveness (this was particularly marked in iron-containing mixtures).

The sulfur/chlorate initiation reaction was examined and the mixture was shown to produce sulfur dioxide on heating. Once formed, the sulfur dioxide quickly causes potassium chlorate to decompose and pyrotechnic mixtures containing potassium chlorate to ignite.

Remember, all you need to do is fuck up once, and it may be your last time.

[Xenodius]

Hey. I just got an idea...

This might be erring off topic, but I didn't want to start a new thread.

I make exploding targets with a 95/5 mix of AN to Al. (Don't mock the acronym from that combo, its unintentional) These targets explode consistently from a 7.62x39 (#4 barrel Russian SKS w/ poly stock! :D), @ 2.8k fps.

That converts to about +850 m/s, if mental math serves. So, if good flash (2 micron Al here, I think thats +5,000 mesh? Thats not right... :D :rolleyes: ) has a VoD of 1100 m/s or more (IIRC), which equates to about 3500 fps, good FP could set off such a target...

Again, IIRC, don't AN/xx mixtures have a VoD of around 6,000 m/s? If this is true, then with due experimentation of the minimum amount of FP and AN/Al mix required, you could make HE detonators (RDX?) using such simple chemical mixes such as AN (coldpacks), Aluminum (Foil + ballmill/rock tumbler), and FP, which means you need either something like KNO3 (Stump remover) and Sulfur (Dusting sulfur should work) or if you can get your hands on KClO4 (Chem/Pyro supplier) make 7:3.

That means you can make HE initiators (The initiator is HE of itself!) with: Instant coldpacks, aluminum foil, a ball mill or rock tumbler (Milled for like, a week...), stump remover (Purified), and dusting sulfur. All of these are common household items, or easily purchasable.

Don't forget boric acid if you use KNO3/Sulfur. But for these I would use 7:3, for obvious safety reasons.

[jagster]

Yea that sounds like an interesting idea. I know flash is crazy. But as far as your idea, I have done a similar test but on a larger scale. I took a flash Co2 canister, inside a steel pipe. Then surrounded it with AN+Al and capped it. Lit fuse and threw it underwater and I know it set off the AN because it through water up like you see in movies with the ship mines.

This just comes from the fact that AN under pressure and heat can decompose. The Al makes it much easier and more sensitive so I wouldn't think much pressure is needed. I wonder if a good rifle casing with a flash base and then ANAl at top would work? Might have to try :D

PS: I coudln't resist but making a bit of sulfur KCL3 flash, made 1 gram of it very softly. Then I placed about 1/15 gram on a rock and tapped with hammer, it exploded like a rifle shot. Very scary stuff so don't ever mess with it in more then 1 gram quanities.

So what about using a small bridge wire (hair size) electrical contact in a gram of the previous sensitive flash, then send a capacitive discharged pulse through it (from a disposable camera)? I would think the pop of the spark would be enough to set this crazy stuff off. I lit some with torch and it flashed quickly but hitting with hammer detonated with very little light. I'm looking to reproduce that detonating effect with electrical fuse.

What about the standard KClO3/sulfur/conductive lampblack ignitor? I know they are friction and (mostly) shock sensitive, but if you send a regular current through them I assume it will just burn. But what if a high voltage pulse (stun gun? probably too low of current) or a 400V capacitor with an instant high current make the pyrogen detonate? The goal here is, again to easily make a blasting cap. I don't have access to all these crazy acids and don't have the lab equipment nor bravery to synthesis these other things like AP, etc.

My goal is to be able to set off these rifle targets ANAl, which are more sensitive then ANFO I think, with a fuse or most probably by electrical means for sure.

I may try the exploding wire in the crazy sulfur flash today and see what happens. I don't know if a small camera cap is enough to blow up a wire though. A capacitive pulse through the conductive pyrogen mix should be interesting though. I'm waiting on my lampblack to come in :)

Oh and also, still thinking about the fuse/electrically blasting cap, what about MEKP with different things? I've been trying to find out more information about it, I've heard people say its fuse sensitive when mixed with KNO3? I doubt that but what about other things.

Finally, I think this might have been mentioned before, but tanner uses ammonium perchlorate in his mix I think it makes it more sensitive. Is this really true vs just AN with very fine Al dust? I got one of those rimfire scarecrow targets and mixed small amounts of it (tablespoons) and they will go off with .22 stinger perfectly. Tim's (I think thats his?) mix sure looks very much like tannerite, just AN prills with some powdery other substance (ammonium per.?) and a dark powder that is probably just pyro aluminum lol. I have tried to figure out whats in it but don't really know. Its very powerfull though just like tannerite.

[Bert]

4 words: Exploding Bridge Wire Detonator. Lots of discusion of firing circuits and electrical characteristics of shooting wire/capacitor banks/triggering systems for these here a while back. Search.

[dbooksta]

In case anyone was wondering: Loosely confined 70/30 KClO4/Al flash powder does not appear to be sensitive to a 2700 fps .308 round (http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z209/dbooksta/?action=view&current=FlashPowderHitwith-1.flv).

[Bert]

You should have ignition with Antimony sulfide or Sulfur in the mix. A bit of ground glass wouldn't hurt either.

[dbooksta]

Is the purpose of the ground glass just to enhance friction effects?

(I'm trying to stay away from anything unpredictable or unstable, so I made a rule when I started that I wouldn't mix sulfur with flash.)

[nbk2000]

Put it in a steel or iron container and watch it explode.

Loose in a paper container, shot with a copper-jacketed bullet? Not too likely, as there's nothing to spark or solidly absorb the shock of impact.

[Bert]

The ground glass does increase friction, and is a common additive to percussion priming mixes and to some flash powder type exploding targets sold commercially in the past.

Antimony sulfide and Sulfur both markedly increase friction and shock sensitivity of chlorate mixes. Chlorate and antimony sulfide/Sulfur have been used as primer compositions, with and without other explosives, oxidizers and fuels. Acid free Sulfur and acid neutralizers make for safer storage, but you had better thoroughly understand the characteristics of chlorate with Sulfur and the various sulfides before trying more than sub gram quantities of such mixes.

And in other Tannerite related news- http://tinyurl.com/3d4zsx
This fucktard blew up 4 porta-potties, some street sign, a building and THE DOORS OF A SCHOOL with Tannerite targets and an AR-15. Look for Tannerite targets to become unavailable in the near future, I expect.

[nbk2000]

Boycott doing (or attending) 4th of July shows in protest of the CPSC ruling! That'd also cover the ability to make tannerites ourselves.

[Zait]

Look for Tannerite targets to become unavailable in the near future, I expect.

That would require re-writing some laws which is generally more diffiucult than people think.

The only impetus I would expect that would change the current laws is if someone used a few thousand pounds of Tannerite (which is nothing more than AN/AL) to blow up a bldg.

[Bacon46]

The link below is to a video below of an exploding target made with 60% KClO3 / 30% Al and quartz. Any hard stone that will fit into the tube or container will do.

I take a 1” I.D. paper tube and plug one end with Durham’s Water Putty. Once the putty dried I place the stones in the tube and tap the tube on the table to settle the stones. I prefer larger stones so that there is a lot of space in between them for flash powder.

Then I gradually pour in 28g of flash powder, GENTLY tapping the tube to get the flash down between the stones.

Plug the end with more putty and there you go. They explode every time with a 22 rim fire.

Substituting Sb2S3 for the Al will work as well but is obviously far more dangerous.

I attached a drawing showing a cross section.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9002/explodingtargetsdc4.jpg

<a href="http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?image=explodingtargetmeeu2.flv"><img src="http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/7818/explodingtargetmeeu2.flv.th.jpg"/></a>

[jagster]

Hmm, yes dbooksta it works fine I do it all the time, with a 17HMR though hollow point. It works very well. Nice flash and report. Flash powder is almost too precious to do that with though! Its getting harder to find aluminum..only on ebay it seems (for the good <2 um flake). Dark Indian Blackhead seems best value for money. German dark is really expensive. Stupid companies won't sell you aluminum and oxidizer together within a year or more.

Ok so I'm about to lose my mind on this scarecrow stuff. I did some more tests and made some tannerite side by side and did them and the scarecrow seems much more powerful, in small quantities that is. I do 1/2 dixie cup of it and it makes a ear ringing bang and annihilates anthills. Tannerite is a softer explosion and not as powerful.

I noticed when mixing up my tannerite that the prills won't get coated very well, this is using my own nitrate from ebay purchase. I'm not sure if this is part of the reason. Assuming it is, the scarecrow stuff is perfectly coated and there is not a single white dot in there. It also has a seemingly darker looking mix. EDIT: come to think of it, the tannerite also did this as he probably uses the 20% air nitrate made for explosives. I guess I'm not doing a true comparison with the regular nitrate but from what I remember this scarecrow is still better then the tannerite.

I tried then grinding up some AN into powdery and add plenty of aluminum and set it off it was loud but not the amazing power of scarecrow.

So no one has any ideas? I'm thinking of posing as a doctor and calling havasu research and saying someone has ingested it and asking what is in it. Then I can play with the ratios from there.

Surely he uses AN but its possible he doesn't. Another forum, if googled, says "tim's mix is completley different then daniel tanners, and is non-linear.." etc. So I don't know? Maybe he uses another oxidizer or something, I can't imagine anything louder then tannerite. All I know is those scarecrows are amazing.

And bacon46, 28 grams? Hehe so precious it is though to do that much. Watch out for flying rocks!!! ;)

[jagster]

By the way, has anyone seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXzcx4Ots-M

A commentor claims this is FIXOR explosive which (by us patent) consists of a nitroparaffin (nitromethane) and a filler silicone dioxide like cabosil and glass microspheres.

There is no way this is sensitive to heat? Would be easy to get a hold of those materials though all on ebay lol. Could be fun to play with. There is an old thread that mentions fixor also.

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=51&page=2

Any comments? It would be cool to have a fuse detonateable binary like that. Only thing that I know of sensitive like that is red phosphorus mix or something..

[nbk2000]

That video has already been discussed and discredited. It's not FIXOR either.

[dbooksta]

I was out at the range again and some guy had mixed up a bunch of exploding targets. See the FTP site Uploads / "Exploding Targets.wmv" for video.

Targets were 1 ounce of either KClO4/Al FP or 10% ammonal (AN + 10% 2-micron Al) packed into 1.5" PVC pipe. 100% of the samples went off with a 2900fps .308 hit.

Interestingly, the FP didn't need anything special to explode -- whether the pipe was sealed with metal or plastic didn't seem to make a difference. Also, exploding FP seems to be roughly as powerful as ammonal (though 2-3 times as expensive!). There is one shot in the video where an FP target takes a peripheral hit and more burns than explodes, but when it takes a direct hit it goes fast.

Now some questions:

1. Does AN that comes in little beads (prills?) need to be ground to make effective ammonal? The targets here used ground AN, but I don’t know if that’s necessary or helpful.

2. Some 10% ammonal wasn’t sealed in the pipe. After a few minutes in a humid workroom it turned into a viscous goo. Is that a normal phase of ammonal, or does that mean it’s absorbing water and deactivating? (Some also fell on duct steel and started corroding it within a few hours, so it obviously doesn’t play well with others.)

3. What is the shelf life of sealed ammonal?

4. What are standard ways of protecting AN compounds from humidity? Are there dessicants -- more hygroscopic than AN -- that are normally used to protect the AN?

[nbk2000]

1.Not if there's enough of it with a powerful enough booster, but for small amounts, it's important.

2. It's getting wet and deactivating.

3. As long as the air-tight seal lasts.

4. Air-tight sealing, or mixing in with non-porous/water-insoluble binders/explosives. Wax or TNT are such examples.

[flashpoint]

I know this thread is old...but I found this.

"Tannerite is made from Zirconium Hydride (ZrH2) and an oxidizer, Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3)."

jagster,

Yes, you can use an oven to dry AN, or a hotplate set on low.

[Bert]

You could go to the US Patent Office http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm and look at the actual patent information for US patent 6,848,366.

Then you could edit your post before too many people say rude things.

[jagster]

I obtained some AN from ebay and it has a soft fluffy texture (I assume then that it is dry?...but does a fluffy texture mean it is? havn't tried drying it out yet) but after shooting it with a 4000 fps 22-250 with 10% AL it did nothing. I was so disappointed. I put some in water and it DID get cold, and torched some and it appeared to melt as the other AN that I have did. So my question is do you guys think there is something else in the powder? It seems to act the same. I'm consulting with the seller about his supplier but I don't know if anything will go through with that.

If there is, I think it can be washed or something?

If I may, NBK where was this video discredited at, the fixor one from youtube I asked about earlier?

[Bert]

Read the patent... And describe particle size and shape of the Al powder.

EDIT:

Jagster-

The patent site and number (6,848,366) referenced in my post above replying to flashpoint is the patent application for Tannerite. Describes makeup and percentage ranges found useful of the two components. You don't mention using ca. 15% NH₃ClO₄ in your oxidizer mix, just straight NH₃NO₃. Others have reported success without the ammonium perchlorate, and still others have not bothered with sponge Titanium and Zirconium hydride while still claiming success. Just TRY to go buy some Zirconium hydride... Unless you are well connected and find some military surplus, good luck.

I have no idea what "military star gradeflake Al" might be either. It is more common to use spherical Al for stars in my experience, and several others have noted a tendency for here today-gone tommorow web sellers to sell annything they can as "flash Al".

[jagster]

Patent for what?

The aluminum was the finest around, <2 um military grade (don't ask me why its military but thats what it was advertised as "military star grade" on some obscure website which was soon thereafter taken down...)

Its 2 micron star grade flake

I know this is probably a newbie question but with regards to the site's ftp, I assume everyone is referring to TMP's ftp? I just asked him for an access.

Is that the one you are referring to dbooksta?

[jagster]

I read around here on forums and I think I will try activating the AN (although I have NEVER done that before and it seems to have worked fine, and this seems dry already).

If that doens't work I could wash it with some solvent or acetone or alchohol to get rid of any possible inhibitors or waxes or such?

[dbooksta]

Yes, video is on tmp's FTP.

BTW, can you detail the containers for the targets you were trying? This other thread suggests that confinement of ammonal is essential to getting it to detonate with a bullet (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=57589&postcount=12) -- presumably because you need some compression to support the shockwave:

The bullet must hit an object inside the container in order for the comp to work. Unless, the container itself is quite durable. A bullet can and does move right through the comp if there is not compression for the comp. I have hit many non-confined an/al mixes with no luck, nothing. But have take then same comp and put it inside a container, viola!.

[jagster]

Nah, when you use that precious 2 micron flake its so wicked it doesn't take confinement. I just use dixie cups with a 2550 fps 17 hmr and works flawlessly, prilled or not. Thats why its so weird that it dind't go off even with 4000 fps 22-250. Got a crock pot yesterday will try drying it out and/or activating it this weekend.

Keep in mind this does work with my other nitrate just this one batch doesn't. But as far as I know its pure powder nitrate but something is obviously wrong. Maybe there is some hidden moisture i'm hoping (even though its pretty fluffy)...we'll see.

And as far as flash Al goes...there is a guy on ebay who says indian blackhead 2 micron..the best there is period..that wont' be around very long. He is on his last drum he said. I went ahead and invested ;). Get it while you still can!

Injunction on firefox now..1lb/yr and 25ft/year of fuse of any oxidizer, etc now. Its a complete joke. So now it will be fun to try to get perchlorate or chlorates in future; but there will always be fireworks shows and stuff i guess hopefully.

[trigul1]

look at this address for the compositions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannerite

[Xenodius]

Jagster:

I recently bought some AN on ebay that was extremely fine, supposedly 99.8% pure, 16lbs of it. Its not AN, I can tell you that.

Did you buy yours from amscomputerpro? His AN is a hoax.

I wasted a ton of money making over a pound of targets with it...

Even my Zinc/AN mixes just foamed instead of catching flame.

[Alexires]

*wince* Hate to be a prick, but this is a chemistry related forum.

Sure, if you were talking about some fairly long named and uncommon chemical, it would be excusable to accidentally put the wrong subscript number (maybe), but twice in a row on something as common as an Ammonium compound?

Ammonia - NH3. Its a gas at STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure).

The Ammonium ion - NH4+. This is the "Ammonium" part of "Ammonium Nitrate/Perchlorate/etc." It's NH4NO3 or NH4ClO4 people.

We get people that are new to chemistry, and we should try and keep things clean for them, so that they learn good habits early.

Jagster - If it's fluffy, I don't think it is as dry as it could be. With something as hygroscopic as Ammonium Nitrate, you should definitely consider drying it before use otherwise you might have a dud (such as you did above). You will find instructions and suggestions on drying it around the forum. Also, activating it will help, but you need to keep it DRY. I don't mean just in a container, but as dry as you possibly can being as absolutely anal-retentive about it as possible.

[jagster]

Xenodius: hahaha yea man its him...I dryed it out for a while today in a crock pot it reached about 260 degrees F or so left it there a few hours. It started smelling of ammonia also so its some sort of percentage AN in it. It formed some harder klumps it seems not sure if that was the AN melting a bit or some sort of wax precipitating out or what very disappointed though. Will try it with targets tomorrow. I bought his 12lb lot. It DID get cold though in water a little so I think its some amount of AN but not sure. I've been corresponding with him he claims its pure and he claims his supplier claims its pure so I don't know what the deal is.

What exactly does activating it do? I guess semi convert it to explosives grade type AN? I read megalomania's thread on that and I don't think it mentioned WHAT it does just that you need to do it. I have never done it, just straight AN from any source have had no problems with...knew a friend who worked at a fertilizer place and he just scraped some off floor lol it works great!

I keep hoping I can get this 12 lb to work though its a sad waiste if I can't. You sure its not doable Xenodius?

One thing not to trust is no one ever crushes it to powder and sells it...its always prills. Should have red flagged that and not gotten it :(. I wonder if I should give him a bad rating? :D

[nbk2000]

Melt some on a steel wire and see what color it gives off in the torch flame. That'll give you an idea if it has potassium/sodium/calcium in it, and that'll give you a clue to what the contaminant is.

It's most likely some mix with calcium nitrate, which is common, though I don't recall what it's called.

[Xenodius]

Jagster: I would definitely give him a -1. I know 2 people, plus you, who bought from him with similar results.

He continues to claim its 99.8% pure AN in our dispute ticket... I have tested otherwise :mad:.

Regardless of purity, whatever he is selling is, in fact, NOT ammonium nitrate, at least not the percent he claims.

As far as it being having calcium nitrate in it... I will have to test that soon; I wouldn't be surprised.

[jagster]

Yea let me know what you come up with. I would give him bad rating but I almost don't want to because he will give me the same and I have 100% :). I might try the flame tests.

Ah well everything isn't always perfect this is the first mess up I've had with ebay.

[Alexires]

jagster - I believe that activating the Ammonium Nitrate changes the crystalline structure of it, making it more capable of absorbing the oil when being used for ANFO. It's it normally done in multiple stages, but needs to be kept dry, otherwise it will revert to whatever crystalline structure the temperature that it dries out at refers to.

So basically, when you activate Ammonium Nitrate, you increase the surface area that the Fuel Oil can interact with, and increase the ability of the Ammonium Nitrate to absorb said Fuel Oil.

[nbk2000]

Give him a bad, and provide a link to a video of the tests, so he can't deny it, and looks like a punk if he gives you bad rep in retaliation. Then you've got a basis for complaining to E-bay about his goods and abuse of the rep system, and can get his ass banned. :)

[Bert]

jagster - I believe that activating the Ammonium Nitrate changes the crystalline structure of it, making it more capable of absorbing the oil when being used for ANFO.

If you read the first section of Tenney Davis' Chemistry of Powder and Explosives (pp. 49-50) regarding other propellants than BP. you will note that "amonpulvar" (black powder type composition with ammonium nitrate instead of Potassium or Sodium nitrates) is low smoke and about as powerful as some smokeless powders, but has a drawback that made it unsuitable for wide military use- The ammonium nitrate goes through a crystal phase change a little above 32 C that breaks up the grains with repeated cycles, changing the burning characteristics by increaseing the surface area. Increased surface area is a good thing for certain other uses...

[Cobalt.45]

*wince* Hate to be a prick, but this is a chemistry related forum.
....

Who is this directed at? I see no butchering of formulas in this thread.

[Bert]

Me, I think. Cut and pasted the subscript script from another post in a hurry, didn't correct the number.

[Cobalt.45]

I see it now.

Me, I think. Cut and pasted the subscript script from another post in a hurry, didn't correct the number.
You mention cut and pasting from another post. I don't see the screw up in any other posts. So, where was it cut/pasted from?

I hope the Tannerite targets stay available and that no litigation is directed at them. But like the guys who are selling "survival" report comp (supposed to be used in emergency situations:rolleyes: ), he might have problems, eventually.

[jagster]

Survival report composition!? Haven't heard of that :).

I just noticed this posting went on to page 5, woops I feel stupid now.

Anyways, yea he gave me a good rating so I can retaliate now. I haven't been able to do some more formal testing with guns will this weekend finally. Have been away from home on business for a while. He seems so honest though in his emails and he supposedly talked to his supplier and his supplier said it was pure as far as he knows except for maybe some ammonium sulfate to do whatever.

I havn't tested it since I dried it out in a crock pot for a long time. I wonder if mixing it with cabosil will help; I recently bought 10lb I have an enormous amount of it. Its awesome stuff though. Cabosil scares me in making flash though because its so perfectly drys things that static becomes a problem...in a bag of cabosil you can point your finger and it will indent a valley into the powder due to static.

Any more updates on that test on the calcium xenodius?

[HemiDodge]

I am new here, however, I have been reading a lot lately on the exploding targets.

I got a hold of 60# of AN prills today. I took a pound of the prills, ground it to a fine powder and mixed in 10% by weight of AL powder. I put this in a 32 oz food storage container and shot at 100 yds with a .22-250 (4000 fps).

My god!! What a report.

My question is, if I mix this and put it in film canisters for plinking at 100 yds, how long will it stay good. I could silicone the lid shut in order to ensure that moisture would stay out.

I noticed that after mixing another batch and putting it in 8 oz containers, sealed, the mix was clumping together. I am worried that with the AN being hydroscopic that it could become less reactive or worthless. The containers should be sealed, and I put a bead of silicone around the lid to make sure. Just wondering what the shelf life would be if sealed 100%.

Thanks!

[jagster]

Just keep your AN dry. If you seal it it should work. Just don't let BATF find out your a storing a HE mix.

I use dixie cups and mix them at time of use for reports. They work nicely. Enough to blow chunks out of stumps if you place them to the side or in a little. Even funner to drill a hole and fill it up with the stuff then shoot it with .17HMR :)

Incredible stuff. My nitrate ground partially to powder stays good in a normal zip lock bag...

22-250 is one of my favorite rounds..wickedly fast and will knock that mix into detonation perfectly. The 2550 17HMR though, is much quieter gun and always works with good fine aluminum. The crappier paint grade will work with the faster caliber though. I have to use ear plugs for my break open 22-250 its so freakin loud, then that silences the explosion which I don't like :(

[Bacon46]

My son and I went shooting on the Forth. Here are a few videos of some KClO3/Al exploding targets we shot using his 7.62 x 54 Mossin / Nagant and a Ruger 10/22.

An exploding target placed inside an Epson C64 printer.
http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=epson64ewxx7.flv

An exploding target placed inside an Epson 8400 printer.
http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=epson8400ewoj4.flv

Exploding target attached to a one gallon can of camping stove fuel.
http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ewfuelshot2ly5.flv

An exploding target sitting next to a can of spray paint.
http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=paintcanshotewfi4.flv

Another target attached to a one gallon can of camping stove fuel.
http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fuelshotoneewki3.flv

I am getting ready to move. Disposing of things like camp stove fuel and spray paint in the landfill is illegal. :D

[Cobalt.45]

Nice! Were these made with the 60% KClO3/ 30% Mg/ 10% quartz you mentioned earlier?

About what was the weight of the charges?

[Enkidu]

Disposing of things like camp stove fuel and spray paint in the landfill is illegal. :D

Nice of you to post vids with someone's face in it for the kindly LEOs. Might I suggest that that's not overly wise?

You may be guilty of a 'small' crime, but, considering you post on a place like this, who knows what crime some ignorant, arrogant do-gooder will try to pin on you? Better safe than sorry, IMHO.

[Bacon46]

Nice! Were these made with the 60% KClO3/ 30% Mg/ 10% quartz you mentioned earlier?

About what was the weight of the charges?

Same targets but it's 2:1 KClO3/Al flash powder. For the newbie’s that's 2:1 by weight. You can substitute KClO4 for the KClO3 with the same results.

The amount of quartz depends on the size of the container. I use stones ranging from 1/2" (12.7mm) up to 6" (152.4mm). The devices attached to the fuel cans were 2" (50.8mm)I.D. x 7" (177.8mm) long cardboard tubes with 1/4" (6.35mm) thick walls. See attached picture.

<a href="http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=explodingfueltargetmx9.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6822/explodingfueltargetmx9.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a>

After plugging the ends there was approximately 9.5 ci of space to fill. I used enough ¾” (19mm) stones to fill that space. Before adding the flash I vibrate the tube to settle the stones into the tube. Because of the size and irregular shape of the stones there is enough air space in between them to add the flash; In this case 2 oz (56.69g) with room to spare. As long as all of the stone have a just a dusting of flash powder you can set the target off with any caliber rifle or handgun. I have never had one fail.

I fill the space with stones for two reasons. The first is I want to make sure the bullet strikes a stone. The second is if the stones are confined tightly in the container they are less likely strike each other and cause an explosion if the device is accidentally dropped.

I get the cardboard tubes at the drycleaners down the street. They are the tubes that the clothing bags come on. They are heavy duty and they are more than happy to give them to you.

[nbk2000]

Nice work. :)

Though Endiku is correct about the videos. It is a bannable offense, as it makes prosecution too easy, removing any plausible deniability.

Edit them as indicated in your PM, and re-upload.

[dbooksta]

What exactly are the quartz stones doing to sensitize the FP? Bert noted that ground glass is frequently used to increase friction in percussion mixes (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=91302&postcount=77). But large stones suggest a different mechanism might be at work. I can imagine:

1. The bullet deforming against a hard target (rock) instantaneously heats the bullet lead above the ignition temperature for FP. (Causing deflagration due to ignition by temperature alone.)

2. The bullet compresses a tiny amount of FP against the rock, initiating deflagration by increased temperature and pressure on the FP compound.

3. The collision of the bullet with the rock produces a shockwave that "detonates" the FP.

None of these would seem to require that the hard target be quartz.

Bacon46 or anyone have experience suggesting quartz is more effective than any other hard rock?

[Bacon46]

2. The bullet compresses a tiny amount of FP against the rock, initiating deflagration by increased temperature and pressure on the FP compound.

None of these would seem to require that the hard target be quartz.

Bacon46 or anyone have experience suggesting quartz is more effective than any other hard rock?

I would go with number two. You have a bullet impacting a rock coved in flash. You are going to have an incredible amount of compression and more than likely sparks. It is not necessary to use quartz but the harder the stone the better. More sparks. You could probably use nut and bolts. Anything hard you have lying around that won't react with the flash powder would work.

I live in an area where quartz and granite are abundant so that is what I use. I can pick up either stone in my yard. In the desert we have very little soil. We have granite in two forms, solid or decomposed; Quartz ranging from ½” size stones to boulders weighing several tons, the remainder is volcanic or river rock. When shooting in the desert, bullets hit these rocks; there is no way to avoid it. Most of the time when bullets hit them sparks fly, so I decided to experiment with using these sparks to set off flash powder. It hasn’t failed me yet.:D

I haven’t used river rock yet but it is hard as hell and would probably be another option.

[jagster]

I haven't seen these videos? I assume the post was deleted. I saw them the other day on dialup and waited until I get to high speed to watch and now they are gone :(.

Please re-upload with correct editing bacon46 I would love to see. I plan to try a similar thing with a candle in the background (as straight reactive targets will not ignite the vapor blast) to light a pile of wood :D.

[Cobalt.45]

What exactly are the quartz stones doing to sensitize the FP?

I would think that the energy released in the form of fast, sharp, hard particles when the quartz stone (or any smallish, hard stone) is hit by a bullet is more than enough to initiate the ignition.

Like many tiny but powerful hammer blows. I don't think that a spark is necessary to set it off.

[Bacon46]

I haven't seen these videos? I assume the post was deleted. I saw them the other day on dialup and waited until I get to high speed to watch and now they are gone :(.

Please re-upload with correct editing bacon46 I would love to see. I plan to try a similar thing with a candle in the background (as straight reactive targets will not ignite the vapor blast) to light a pile of wood :D.

I fucked up and had to edit the videos.:o I have already uploaded the edited videos and sent new links to NBK. He will edit the original post using the new links and repost it when he has the time.

[nbk2000]

I re-upped the modified video links.

Also, I think that since you're using quartz, you're getting electric sparks from the piezoelectric effect of the mechanical impact of the bullet against the quartz crystals.

[jagster]

Very nice vids. Will have to try that but now KClO3/4 (and aluminum, besides ebay) is so precious since that idiot judge filed against firefox. Much prefer tannerite type targets, with an open flame in vicinity to set off the vapor cloud :D. Plan to use it to light a trash pile.

[dbooksta]

Since ammonal is so much cheaper than FP I'd like to figure out how to extend its shelf life and increase its sensitivity using readily available compounds. I tried shooting some excess samples that had been sitting around for two weeks under foam-seal screw-top lids and they didn't work.

Current ideas:

For shelf life I'm thinking of desiccants -- maybe Cab-O-Sil or sodium silicate. Are these more hygroscopic than AN?

For sensitivity either adding 15% ammonium perchlorate (presumably will eagerly oxidize the Al?) or 6% charcoal powder (known to sensitize/boost AN).

Final thought is to soak the compound in fuel oil which could both boost the AN and keep moisture away from it.

[jagster]

I wouldn't think the fuel oil would help but the ammonium perchlorate does as tanner adds some in his mix. I can't tell the difference really in sensitivity though. I've compared both seem the same as long as you use the beautiful fine aluminum (<2 micron indian blackhead) :D.

Almost too precious to use but thats what I bought it for is to use not worship :)

[Alexires]

As the sensitivity of Ammonal is really too much of an issue (it isn't likely to go off if you look at it wrong), why not try coating it in some kind of water proof/resistant material?

As the problem is moisture (affecting the AN and the Al) you need to stop that from happening. Try drying your Ammonal to as dry as you can get it, coat it in cling-wrap or put it in a cardboard mailing tube, then either dipping it in just melted wax or covering it with some kind of silicon glue.

"Ammonal used for military mining purposes was generally contained within metal cans or rubberised bags to prevent moisture ingress problems." - Wikipedia on Ammonal.

Try coating it in something is the short answer.

I'd be dubious as to putting NH4ClO4 into your Ammonal and THEN dipping it in hot wax.....

[Bacon46]

To prevent damage from moisture I coat my cardboard tubes inside and out with shellac.

After plugging one end and allowing that plug to dry I fill the tube shellac and then pour the excess back into the can. After that dries (in around 30 minutes) I assemble the target, allow the second plug to dry and then dip the target into the shellac to coat the outside.

I do this to all of the pyrotechnic devices that I make with cardboard tubes and have never had a problem with moisture. I do live in the desert where humidity is rarely above 20%, but shellac does an excellent job of keeping out moisture.

Very nice vids. Will have to try that but now KClO3/4 (and aluminum, besides ebay) is so precious since that idiot judge filed against firefox..

I can produce a pound (453g) of KClO3 per week in my 4 gallon (22.73 liter) chlorate cell so flash powder is cheaper for me.

[jagster]

Chlorate cell? Oh do elaborate :).

[Bacon46]

Chlorate cell? Oh do elaborate :).

I have posted the specifications to the above metnioned chlorate cell in a thread related to cholate production. The link below is to that post.

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=92667#post92667

[embeebee]

Ok, So, I got my Type 20 from ATF and I've been experimenting with exploding targets. I can personally vouch for the fact that blasting grade Ammonium Nitrate mixed with aluminum powder makes a wonderful exploding target.
USE
I've found that an aluminum powder concentration from 1% through 8% will work with the sweet spot being between 3% and 7%. Being somewhat of a perfectionist I am trying to figure out what the best percentage is. I've been using 625 mesh spherical that I got on eBay. I think I prefer 5% since I use a teaspoon and a half per cup of Ammonium Nitrate, that works out to 5%.
PARAGRAPH
But, I want the most powerful explosion for any given amount of Ammonium Nitrate. I've been researching blast pressure sensors and I don't think I'll be able to afford a real one. This is what brings me here tonight. Does anyone know of a simple contraption that exists for measuring blast overpressure? I just need something that can show that one shot is more or less powerful than another shot. I guess I could put an anvil on top of one and measure the hang time with a stopwatch but that seems kind of crude and would probably be pretty inconsistent.
BREAKS
Stay Legal, Stay Safe.

[Bert]

Google "Ballistic pendulum".

[Cobalt.45]

Being somewhat of a perfectionist I am trying to figure out what the best percentage is. I've been using 625 mesh spherical that I got on eBay. I think I prefer 5% since I use a teaspoon and a half per cup of Ammonium Nitrate, that works out to 5%.
In your pursuit of perfection, you might want to weigh your components.

And, yea, anvil hang-time tends to be a bit inconsistent.:rolleyes:

Seriously though. You might try using a dB meter if nothing else pans out.

[embeebee]

Ok, Here's my new and improved follow-up post...fortified with punctuation, paragraph breaks, and many essential vitamins and minerals! :)

The targets I've been making to date have been carefully measured as 1 cup each of AN. But I do agree that the weight will fluctuate as the amount of "fines" in each measured cup probably increases as I get closer to the bottom of each bucket of AN.

I have yet to determine the effect of the "fines" to "prills" ratio on the end result.

One thing I hope to accomplish soon is to get an estimate of the detonation velocity by filling paper tubes with the AL/AN mix and then measuring the time between when two loops of wire that are each wrapped around the tube, and spaced a known distance apart, are severed by the passing shock wave. This event will be measured by using an FPGA prototyping card as a stopwatch.

I know this doesn't measure the shock wave directly but it should approximate the speed at which the target container bursts from end-to-end, which, I theorize is fairly close to the detonation velocity.

I'll be trying that test with different concentrations of AL/AN and different consistencies of AN (untreated, prills only, fines only, crushed prills and fines).

I thought about the SPL meter option but my little Radio Shack meter doesn't seem to be able to capture transient events as evidenced by trying to clap my hands near it.

Also, FWIW, recent testing has shown that the velocity threshold for achieving detonation of a target when using .223 soft point bullets is 2500fps. I don't have much data but it seemed like 5% was a little more sensitive than 3%.

Stay legal, stay safe

[Cobalt.45]

Interesting.

Have you used different design bullets to see if one is better than another? I would think that unless the target is made from some resistant material, the round would pass through w/o much expansion.

It would be nice to be able to use cheap ball ammo.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

A very long time ago I did try an experiment similar to the alteration of bullet shape to achieve greater initiation. What I found was interesting.

The initiation was created by a "hot spot" of impact. That area could be very small in area, as there seemed to be little difference in soft-point, HP or ball ammo in reactivity of a give chemical model.

If sensitivity was high, the Hot Spot could be very uniform and the results the same as if a .45-70 SP were used instead of a cheap Wolf .223. When you think about it, there are a variety of forces in play.

Impact, friction, & heat are all achieved by bullet impact. The "point" (IMO) is not the issue so much as the parameter (circumference) of the bullet as it passes through the material. Thus the "hot Spot" is the circumference of the bullet and any compression (the tip) is an added bonus. Given a sensitive material - it varied very little if a Ball were used. In the given experiment I watched (chlorate based) there was no difference.

I think of it this way: If one source of ignition were used to initiate a material compared with two sources, would two sources of ignition (a larger area of friction, impact, & heat) archive a "better" or even more efficient method? If a (per)chlorate based flash comp were ignited by two fuses (or a thicker fuse) would that make any real difference in the ignition of the flash comp? Could that even be measured by available means?

[Cobalt.45]

Quoted by COP: "I think of it this way: If one source of ignition were used to initiate a material compared with two sources, would two sources of ignition (a larger area of friction, impact, & heat) archive a "better" or even more efficient method?"

Depends on your concept of "better". If a larger or more energetic explosion is the bench mark, then probably not.

But if reliability is an issue, then possibly so.

What I was seeking is empirical info on the mixture MBB is working with, but thanks for your input.

[Alexires]

One thing I hope to accomplish soon is to get an estimate of the detonation velocity by filling paper tubes with the AL/AN mix and then measuring the time between when two loops of wire that are each wrapped around the tube, and spaced a known distance apart, are severed by the passing shock wave. This event will be measured by using an FPGA prototyping card as a stopwatch.

If I remember correctly embeebee, you may have a problem with that as the explosive forms a plasma for a little while, and plasma is electrically conductive.

I'm not very good with electrical things, so if you've already got that planned out, then good on you.

If you haven't, perhaps there is a way to start the timer using a fluctuation of voltage/current and stop it again when there is another fluctuation. As I understand it, current is a measure of charged particles moving past a point at a certain time. I'm pretty sure a plasma would lower/raise resistance, and hence make it measurable.

[Positron]

TANNERITE: This has probably been done before, although I've searched and cannot find anything. I'd like to report that a friend and I have successfully detonated many bottles of this stuff using simple 70/30 KCL04/Al flash powder "detonators".

Yes, it does seem to work. We were blowing very large holes in the side of a "mud cliff" using this method, and my gut-feel tells me that the explosions were at least reasonably efficient. A single 1/2lb. bottle would knock out a 4-foot diameter hole in the hard-packed mud and clay (dry). The wires that we had coming out of the blast holes were all zig-zagged after the explosion; A testament I believe, to the stuff going high-order.

------------

Ammonal: The following are the results of a quick sensitivity test that a friend and I have recently done, using 7% AN/AL and a 17HMR rifle.

Ammonium Nitrate: Obtained from instant cold packs that were purchased via a popular internet auction site. The seller often sells these in lots of 125. I took the AN from these, ground the prills in a blender, and laid the powder onto an aluminum cookie sheet. This was placed in an oven and baked for about an hour at 100 deg. C. The powder was placed in a ziplock bag immediately after drying, due to its hygroscopicity.

Aluminum Powder: 2-micron (or three, I can't remember) "Indian-Blackhead". Nice stuff.

Ratio: 93% AN, 7% AL.

This mix was measured out into three plastic camera-film canisters. Each canister contained very close to 22.67 grams (350 grains) of the described material, which nearly filled the canisters to the top.

Test Results: Partial detonations were had, when the film canisters were shot at nearly point-blank range (30 feet) with a 17HMR rifle, using CCI "TNT" ammunition. The advertised muzzle velocity of this ammunition is 2550FPS. I say "partial detonations" due to the fact that there was a significant amount of un-reacted material sprayed into the phone-books that were placed directly behind the canisters. How much, I don't know, but probably at least 10%.

The explosions appeared weak to me, but did tear the phone-books up quite nicely. They were pretty much ripped apart, and oddly "sliced" in different directions (pressure!!).

------------

Electronics talk: Embeebee, the technique you describe to measure VoD sounds like a good one, though I do believe that the only equipment needed would be a simple digital oscilloscope. Channel 1 "watches" the first wire loop, and channel 2 watches the other. Put a 9 volt battery on each loop or something, and use identical lengths of wire (preferably coax cable) to connect the scope to the test setup near the explosive. Keep in mind that you're measuring very fast signals, and that you may need to use transmission-line and/or RF techniques to keep the signals clean.

The time between the waveform anomalies (on the scope's screen) and the physical distance between the wire loops would tell VoD. Simple.

...Instead of wire loops, perhaps a more accurate method would be to run a very small gauge wire through the middle of the tube?

Also, yep, I'd scrap the Sound Pressure Level (SPL) meter for this type of work. Use your own transducer (a small speaker) and that storage-scope to obtain RELATIVE pressure levels.

------------

Thanks to all of you for a great forum. 'Twas my first post.

[dbooksta]

Shoot, I have been assuming that 7% Ammonal is functionally equivalent to Tannerite. Since Positron noted over here (http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=5715&page=3) that Flash Powder reliably detonated Tannerite but NOT Ammonal I'm intrigued.

I wonder if there's some special interaction between potassium perchlorate in the FP and either zirconium hydride or ammonium perchlorate in the Tannerite -- or if the Tannerite really is just more sensitive in some critical dimension.

AFAIK nobody has gotten Tannerite to detonate with bullets any slower than will also detonate Ammonal. Though I haven't heard of anyone testing bullets between 1400fps and 2400fps, so maybe there's a critical difference manifest in that range. (Both substances detonate with .17HMR's at 2400fps, but fail with .22's approaching 1400fps.)

Lots of stuff to test on this....

[black mamba]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3a7_1200611038

Jan 17 2008 RED WING, Minn.
A 30-year-old man from Welch Township has been charged with 3 felonies after a huge explosion on his property prompted authorities to put the Prairie Island nuclear plant a mile away on alert.

Prosecutors claim Childs bought 100 pounds of the explosive Tannerite off the Internet. The explosive was loaded into the rear end of a dump truck on Sunday and detonated by a .50-caliber rifle round.

Childs told investigators the explosion sent debris up to a quarter-mile away.

Goodhue County prosecutors on Wednesday charged Brian Wesley Childs with gross disregard for human life and several lesser charges. All told, he was charged with three felonies and five lesser counts.

Childs was released from jail without bail on Wednesday.

His attorney, Joseph M. Paiement of Lakeland, said on Thursday that he anticipated filing motions to dismiss the charges ahead of Childs' next hearing on Feb. 22.

"We intend to challenge, particularly, the felony charges," he said. "I think that was over-charged."

Paiement noted that no one was hurt in the incident, there was no allegation that Childs acted maliciously and no property was damaged _ except for the dump truck.

Paiement said he suspected prosecutors filed such serious charges because the explosion happened so close to the nuclear plant. "That clearly is behind a lot of this," he said.

[megalomania]

I was going to post about this last night after someone told me about it. He made a video of the explosion where he blew up his pickup truck. I forget what the link is, it's on my portable drive...

http://wm.kare.gannett.edgestreams.net/news/news/011708_492819_rawexplosion_kare.wmv?213436524624&MSWMExt=.asf

Does anyone know how to save these files? I have 2 different plugins for firefox to save flash videos and the like, but they never work.

[wymanthescienceman]

Thanks for the link Mega, I promptly saved it to my HDD in case it gets removed. I use WM Recorder 12 to save any flash type media or other streams to my HDD. Simple to use, in fact it will automatically save all media you visit if you want, kind of annoying sometimes as it will capture almost everything media related, but it works and does it well IMO.

EDIT - Awesome video BTW!!

[Bert]

"Let's blow up a huge charge right down the road from the nuclear reactor!" Good idea-NOT!

Mr. Childs blew up an old dump box off a dump truck, not an actual truck. He did this in my area, and his thoughtlessness has allready had negative repercussions on me through a shitstorm of terrified NIMBYs who think that his stupid amateurish actions with high explosives bear some resemblance to our legal, permitted and insured fireworks business. It's doubtful that he will be convicted of the entire shotgun barrage of charges that were thrown at him, but he is definitely guilty of pissing off the cops and his neighbors.

(edit)
http://www.hastingsstargazette.com/articles/index.cfm?id=19057&section=homepage&property_id=26

He admitted to the cops that the metal debris flew past the spectators, over an adjoining road and into property other than his own. He should be convicted of the charges related to recklessness and endangerment, IMHO. Looking at his criminal record, I'd say my snap judgement of his personality and intelligence are spot on.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

It's tough to believe that anyone would not be aware of the repercussions of doing anything of that nature near a nuclear facility....Mr Childs is a blathering dumb shit who brought bad Joo-joo on himself and attempted to make this a "professional entertainment event" in the superficialities of his first police contact. Thus, this fucktard does a great deal of harm due to his base stupidity.

A nuclear facility of any type is a damn high security rig. In today's climate of fear and political undercurrent; going near them is unwise. Blowing something up in their presence is a Darwinian Mark of Cain....too stupid to breed. I really get angry at this type of crap because it brings with it so many repercussions in so many areas.

[megalomania]

He probably severely underestimated the yield of his explosive when he set it up. He was on his own property, which should be a credit in his favor. I have a right to do on my land what I want, as long as I don't hurt anyone. That is what freedom is. He didn't attack a nuclear power plant, he didn't trespass and destroy fedgov property.

I think the fedgov overreacted and is making a federal case out of a harmless incident. Where do you draw the line as to how far away a nuclear reactor can be before you can do something like this? If anyone else did this exact same thing, two, three, four miles or more away we never have heard about it because no one would care. Perhaps it is a bit unfair to expect this fella to adhere to a higher standard just because he is a mile away from xxx.

There is a lot of ignorance, stupidity, fear, and hostile emotion for anything "nuclear." I met a guy who got upset with me because of my interest in microwave chemistry, the "radiation" from microwaves contaminates food you see. I could not get him to understand that radiation means energy going in all directions, that light is radiation, and you are in greater danger from a sunburn than your microwave, but to him the word "radiation" means death. In a less civilized world I would have shot him on general principle, I did have a strong urge to slap him. We have the media, libs, environuts, and a few dreadful accidents terrifying everyone into thinking a 20 foot thick reinforced concrete dome a mile away is somehow in danger from an exploding truck.

It's all a matter of perspective. That explosive could have been detonated on top of the reactor dome and it still would not have been more than scratched. That's the reality of the situation. We are led to fear, loathe, hate, and despise anyone and anything to do with explosives because it is a fashionable activity perpetuated by the media. Fear sells more papers and gets more viewers. The nightly news has terrorized more soccer moms than Osama ever did.

I wonder who is the stupider of the two, the guy who detonated the bomb, or the people who think the nuclear power plant was actually in some form of jepordy?

This just in, something in your home is murdering your children while they sleep. We'll tell you what that is, after this break.

[Rbick]

I know this is an old thread, but I found this video which you may find interesting. Click on the red camera icon to the upper right of the picture.

http://www.kttc.com/News/index.php?ID=21875

I love the liberal bull shit "I guess you can get anything on the internet these days" crap they keep ranting about.

Anyway, to keeping on the subject. I made some exploding targets w/ fertilizer grade AN and 600 mesh Al powder. I made them 20% Al since I hadn't read up on it well enough, so next time I will use 8%.

The first one we shot deflagrated when shot with a .270 from 200m. It was a bright flash and looked like a detonation, but the damage and the sound report proved otherwise. The second target was only blown apart by a shot from the .270, but the remaining was detonated by a shot from my AR-15 from about 20m away. The third target partially deflagrated on the first shot with the AR-15 but detonated on the second hit, although there wasn't much left to detonate. I'll post the video when I get a chance. I'll keep experimenting w/ lower percentage Al.

[psyillirabbit]

I recently decided to make a tannerite-esque exploding target. I purchased a #50 bag of prilled ammonium nitrate and 2 pounds of "indian blackhead" aluminum powder from an internet auction. After double checking the laws with the ATF, I proceeded as follows.

I took 120.28 grams of ammonium nitrate prills and I ground them into a very fine powder in a coffee grinder that I use for this purpose. I had a very fine "smokey" white powder which went directly into a closed plastic container.

I took 7.09 grams of the powdered aluminum and placed it in a seperate container.

I mixed both at the test site by simple agitation until I had a fairly uniform grey coated ammonium nitrate powder and by my math that is approximately 95% / 5% by weight.

I fired several rounds of 7.62mm rifle ammunition into this container, which was filled to about 75 % capacity with loose powder, and I had zero detonation at all. Muzzle velocity is around 2750 fps and the range was 50 yards approx.

Can anyone see something that I failed to do to achieve a positive detonation?

Psyillirabbit

[Bacon46]

It sounds to me like you need an “anvil” for lack of a better word, inside your target. I use stones and have never had a target fail to explode.

The bullet needs to strike something hard inside the target in order to generate enough energy to cause the composition to deflagrate, otherwise it just passes right through.

The links below are to posts I made earlier in this thread that have video and explain the targets in more detail.

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=92371&postcount=110

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=92388&postcount=113

[dbooksta]

My first guess is that your AN picked up some water after you ground it. It's extremely hydrophilic and can go bad just with exposure to ambient humidity after a few hours. Did you smell any ammonia when you opened the container at the test site? If so you need to seal it against moisture better.

I've never done a completely loose-packed test. OTOH, I've never needed an "anvil" to get a detonation: In general I just pack empty space in the container with wadded paper to compress the powder, and that has always worked.

[psyillirabbit]

Out of curiosity, does ammonium nitrate loose effectiveness over time? I know this batch to be a year old, though it was sealed in a 6 inch Diameter PVC pipe over that time.

If it is moist, then perhaps it just needs to be dried out with a low temp oven cook per instructions in some of the various posts to reactivate?

I've know nitrates to be very hydroscopic even from ambient humidity, but this did seem very dry. However, it was very finely powdered....perhaps I'll add something to give it some substance....

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Don't self-sign your posts - The_Duke

[embeebee]

It's hard to say what exactly went wrong with your target but you might want to try something with more velocity, like a .223.

[psyillirabbit]

If we assume it was moisture, I need to remove the moisture from the AN. I have read a few different methods for heating it and removing it, but I am leary of cooking it in my kitchen because I really dont want a corrosive in the oven from which I eat.

Does anyone have a tried and true method or have you used the oven for cooking out the moisture? Does it rust up the oven? Precautions? Warnings?

---
Here's a warning. Listen to The_Duke, above. JC.

[festergrump]

It's just moisture. Seeing that AN is so hydroscopic, it is usually pulled from the atmosphere, which pretty much means it's cleaner than the water from your tap. No kidding.

I can't see it doing you or your oven any more harm than a meatloaf or the fish you caught last weekend...

Check your PMs, Psyillirabbit.

[Rbick]

Yeah actually I put 1.5kg of AN in the oven last night for drying. We have been having a lot of flooding lately, and my dehumidifiers in my chemical bins didn't hold up!

There is no problem in doing this, as no AN should get in the oven. If it does, you must be really messy or clumsy, two things that don't go well with energetics. The only things you really need to remember are:

1.I wouldn't use a pan that is usually used for cooking food.
2.Don't heat higher than 169* C (melting point), I usually put mine at 110*C

You can really leave it in there as long as you need to. Good stuff...

[HemiDodge]

This old boy that I know likes to make up some Ammonal every once in a while. This guy was asked if he could blow some hole in some beaver dams to help the water wash them out. Here's what he used. 2" PVC pipe, 30" long. Then an adapter to go from 2" PVC up to 3" pvc pipe. An 8" piece of 3" ID PVC pipe was placed in the adapter. Now basically you have the looks of a potato gun. The 2" pipe was capped. From there, Ammonal was made to fill the "potato gun" to the brim and packed. The 3" pipe was capped (all joints glued). The 3" portion was spray painted fluro orange to ease in visibility. When checking out these charges, they were approximately 3 feet in length. On an average person setting the two inch portion on the ground and standing it up vertically, the contraption was about waste high on a normal person. Anyhow, the charges were placed vertically in the beaver dams, leaving the orange 3" portion sticking out. Charges were set off with a .22-250 firing 45 grain Jacketed hollow points at 4000 fps. BTW -- Most charges were in the 5 pound range.

Two charges did not get filmed due to the camera man drinking beer and not paying attention. The next to last charge was two set off at once. The first potato gun was shoved in horizontally in the beaver dam, then one was placed beside it vertically, so basically in a T shape, but inverted. That one left a crater approximately 7 feet across and at least 6 feet deep.

Here's the video that my buddy put on youtube.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sKtHHOg6EsE

Opinions are welcome.



On another side note, a friend called up and said that he was asked to dispose of a lot of tubes of Carbon that used to be used in demolition on building roads. I have looked around on here and I don't see where there is anything "fun" that a person can do with carbon. Any suggestions? I can get ahold of it, but I don't want it if there's nothing to do. I've googled it as well, and nothing really sticks out.

[Rbick]

Nice video. What were the percentages for those charges?

On a random note, I was thinking about getting a .22-250. The velocity is just incredible. A nice flat shooting round for kill those pesky varmint. The barrels get shot out pretty quick though don't they?

[HemiDodge]

I mix my Ammonal at about 93% Ammonium Nitrate, 7% AL powder.

I love my .22-250. I have a Browning A-Bolt with a 4 x 12 x 32mm Leuopold scope on it.

I have shot the Winchester Varmint rounds for the last 5 years through the gun. They are 45 grain jacketed hollow points, push 4000 fps. I sight it in 1" high at 100 yds. At 200 yds, the gun is dead on. At 300 yds, the gun is about 1" low. At 400 yds, the gun is around 3.5" low. So basically, you just aim center mass on anything alive and it's gone.

I have shot hundreds of rounds through my rifle and never had a problem. I sighted it in again this last fall and grouped on a penny at 100 yds. I have the penny with the hole in it to prove it. No recoil, not too loud, and bullets are easy to find. A .220 swift is faster, but the barrel gets hotter and the bullets are a little tougher to find.

The browning A-Bolt is the most accurate, economical rifle I have ever shot. My setup was around 1,100 for scope, mounts, bore sighting and sling, but worth every penny.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

On another side note, a friend called up and said that he was asked to dispose of a lot of tubes of Carbon that used to be used in demolition on building roads. I have looked around on here and I don't see where there is anything "fun" that a person can do with carbon. Any suggestions? I can get ahold of it, but I don't want it if there's nothing to do. I've googled it as well, and nothing really sticks out.


The only thing I am aware of is the use of something similar in setting up a seismograph (carbon is conductive) - blast wave wave modulation is something industry does prior to and during any work within public thoroughfares and within building zones, highway weight bearing surfaces, etc.

[Smoakie]

I am fairly sure you can use them in a chlorate cell. Don't remember if it is for the cathode or anode and I think it deteriorates fairly quickly but if you have a good supply that shouldn't matter.

Just a suggestion to look into.