Interesting Shotgun Ammo and Effects

[Jacks Complete]

I have searched the archives and not found anything on the types of shotgun ammo available, and the effects they have on various things.

I know they aren't necessarily improvised, but some are, and there isn't a better section.
All the following relates to 12 bore, unless otherwise noted.

As a starter for ten:

Tracer rounds:

In the UK, there are now tracer rounds available for shotgun. They are very expensive, at about £1 a shot, and I don't know how good they are. I just saw them, bought them, and forgot about them. Rediscovered them recently, and will report the effects, etc. when I get a chance to shoot them. Available on a shotgun certficate in the UK. Apparently, they won't light a bale of dry hay if fired right into it! :(

Slug rounds:

I have experience of four types of slug. In the UK, they are section one, which is highly restricted. The four types are:

    Homemade
To make these is simple. Take a standard shotgun cartridge. Use your trusty Swiss Army Knife to corkscrew the crimp open. Empty out most of the shot, and melt into a rough mould about 9 to 11 mm across. (I used a brick and a hammer drill. Smack brick in half, place edges together, clamp and drill hole.) Replace slug into cartridge and fill carefully around it with remaining shot. Press crimp closed. Steel can be added, but no real difference was seen on targets. Use of plastic wads is recommended, as they cup better. Fairly accurate at 40 yards. Penatrated a standard radiator cleanly at this range. :cool:

    Brennek (sp?)
These are the fairly standard slugs you may have seen. Big soft lead slug screwed to a fibre wad, with a domed nose. Puts a big dent in 4mm steel oil tank at 30 yards, as slug atomises. Relatively cheap, and used in France for Boar hunting. Available OTC over there.

    Copperheaded
This type had a fairly obvious copper/brass head, above a lead body with a red plastic wad. Better penatration, resulting in penatration of 4mm of steel and a big dent in second spaced layer. The copper head seemed to be driven in, to penetrate, by the sacrifice of the lead coat. The plastic wad would also separate on hard targets.

    Scary hollowpoint
The only 3" (magnum) shotgun cartridge here, this beast had near 50% more recoil, and a case longer than the chamber in my shotgun (2 3/4"). This was longer (obviously) and had what looked like a Brennek slug in it from the front, but with a large hollow point. From the side could be seen what looked like ridges, and a full length peice of metal, as a cylinder. There appeared to be no wad, just this weird cylinder.
Upon firing, the hollowpoint made a real mess of a tree. Against a hard target, it penatrated both sides of the steel tank! An extended backstop was constructed, and after some digging, it was found that the projectile was a hard plastic dart, with a steel rod in the center, which was came forward, and was inside the lead, stopping just behind the big lead hollowpoint.

(Note that this was a good, new modern design of shotgun, with nitro proof, but shorter chambers.)

Other rounds:
Shotshells
These are your standard shells. Good to about 45 yards, depending on the target and the shot size. The heavier the shot, the less likely you are to hit the target, but the further they go. BB is quite a heavy shot, and goes about 65 yards. #10 is very small, and goes about 35 yards. Chokes also play a part.

Dustshot
Available in .22, they are classed as shotgun ammo. Very fine dust-like lead shot. Good for fragging a tin can at arms' length, but not much else. Available in 9mm and bigger for snakes, in some countries, apparently.

Rods
The only one I have no experiance of. Apparently, it is possible to fire a muzzle loader or shotgun loaded with a blank cartrigde, whilst a rod has been put down the barrel. I seem to remember there is a phrase for it... This is what a lot of cadets used to do, too, by dropping pencils down No.4 rifles loaded with blanks. Could also be done with an arrow?

I know that there are things like (comercial) grenade cartridges out there... so post about how good they are!:)

[kvitekrist]

Intresting topic, so i wil add a couple of things.


I have about 2 ideas for easy shotgun slugs.

The first one is the simplest and maby most dagerous of them all. It consist of a standar shotgunshell cutt almost in two around the vadding point, when shot the whole front half of the shell will leave the barrel and keep the pellets collected until impact. This is ofcourse dangerous with a fully choked shotgun but it works nicely and i have been using it many times in my old O/U

The second one is also an easy solution and probably the safest. It's made by cutting a small hole in the center of the crimping end of the shell, then pour melted wax in the pellets thus holding all the pellets together in the pellets cup.

I have also replaced the pellets with one .50 cal led roundball, and it did work nicely.. the only prblem is the opening of the shellcrimping.

[Cricket]

I have heard of cutting the shell too. I think it was mentioned here somewhere recently and also, I found my grandpa's old 12 gauge shells and some were cut and I didn't know why. It was cut evenly all the way around, like from a pipe cutter. The other thing I have to say is that I have seen very useful looking shotgun slugs for sale. Here is a pic http://www.corbins.com/slugs.htm from a company that sells swaging stuff to make them.

[dana_m_h]

this is interesting i got a magazine in the mail in the us all ammo in it is legal go here: http://www.deltaforce.com on page 26 is the ammo

[dana_m_h]

i probably should just add this to my earlier post but o well here is another "odd" site for everyone http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/default.asp

[Jacks Complete]

Opening and closing the crimp is easy. Use the wide type of corkscrew, as seen on swiss army knives.

Close by pushing hard with a bit of dowel a bit smaller than the end.

[Aaron-V2.0]

Ever thought of reloading a shell with Lye powder or pellets if they're available. Pellets would probably turn to powder when fired but I imagine a cloud of sodium hydroxide would be a good self defense round when out in the open.

[xyz]

I posted that idea in the "Acid Attacks" thread (search if you want it). There are a few problems though such as the NaOH corroding your shotgun but read the Acid Attacks thread if you want to find out about it.

EDIT: Here is the thread, it appears that you also came up with the idea independently:http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2981

[Jacks Complete]

An interesting idea, but you might be right about the damage to the gun.

How about using something like Hoppes or 009? They stink, and burn, and give off ammonia, but since they are designed for cleaning firearms, they are never going to damage the bore.

[12Gauge]

Yes interesting thread, indeed- however most of your information is wrong!

1) What you have labeled a Brennek is actually called a Foster Type Slug and is what is considered a "normal" slug. Ususally about 1oz of soft lead. Also they come in two types:
a) Rifled slug- small, twisted ridges all the way around the body of the slug to produce stabilizing spin in smoothbore unrifled shotguns, much like the rifling in any other firearm.
b) Sabot- a smaller than barrel dimension slug encased in a plastic "shoe" - much like the "scary slug" you have described.

2) Brenneke Slugs are made of copper- they are fired out a sabot- they are not really a "type" of slug as Brenneke is a brand name ( although many people call all of these types of slugs "brenneke")- there are several other brands that make Brenneke type slugs.

3) Your scary slug is very scary- I will only say this once NEVER EVER EVER FIRE 3" SHELLS OF ANY TYPE IN A GUN ONLY CHAMBERED FOR 2 3/4" shells. This is so dumb I can't beleive you did this. Anyone with a modicum of common sense would tell you this is a VERY BAD IDEA! You are lucky that your gun didn't blow up in your face fool! Only fire 3" shells in a gun designed and chambered for 3" shells!

[Jacks Complete]

12gauge,

Thank you for the advice. However, I took a calculated decision that the gun, and I, would survive. I wasn't using a crappy old shotgun, but a very heavy barrelled (for a shotgun), under two year old O/U shotgun designed for shooting lots of rounds.

I know how far overpressure these things are, and I checked the proof marks, so was sure that the gun, although the wrong chamber length, could take the higher pressures invloved, and that it also has an overbore barrel with a longer forcing cone.

Also, I only ever had 6 of these.

As for the sabot design, yes, I recall that they were, in fact, sabotted. Very impressive things, they were. Lots of recoil, and lots of target damage.

Sorry if the other terminology was a bit out. It isn't like I bought them somewhere I could speak the lingo, and it took almost ten minutes to explain what I wanted in French!

[zeocrash]

i'm not sure about the practicalities of making one of these, but i seem to remember that back in the days before planes had propper built in weapons (ww1), aviators used to just carry firearms in their cockpits and shot them at other planes, more like an army soldier, in a plane rather than a pilot.
anyway one of the weapons used by the aviators was a shotgun.
instead of being loaded with standard shells, this shotgun was loaded with special ammo. in this ammo, the pellets were lightly larger than usual and they were all connected together with a latice of cheese wire. anyway as i said before i'm not sure about the practicalities of making one of these, but getting hit in the head or on a limb with one of these shots would cause some very serious lacerations(sp?)

[A-BOMB]

You can do a similar thing with ballchain I really have no idea what this stuff proper name is (the chain that military dogtags are on) Just take a few pieces of it and place the ends together like the spokes on the wheel of a bike and take some wire and lead sinkers. Then tie a sinker to one of the ends of each wire then take up all the loose ends and use the wire to tie them together as to make a cat of 9 tails type of thing then load into the shell.

[Jacks Complete]

I have tried that too.

I could never get it to work well, though. I used 50lb breaking strain line, and fishing weights. The whole thing was about 50cm on a side, triangular, and I thought it would be great.

Sadly, when I patterned one, the cardboard showed that the whole thing failed to spread out, and left just one funny shaped hole. The second one cut a hole about two inches at the widest. The rest of the shot spread normally. I figure that the idea would have worked if the barrel was rifled, or if the wire was stiff and springy. However, I baulked at putting a 50cm bit of spring steel down the barrel of my shotgun!

If anyone has any success with this trick, please post!

Also, has anyone ever used a "Duplex" slug? It has two smaller slugs, that fire at the same time.

The wax idea is a very old trick, and shouldn't be tried through an old shotgun. I might try the scoring method.

Thinking of wax rounds, the "Hatton" round is a similar thing. It is a slug, but it is made, apparently, of metal dust (lead?) mixed with wax. It is used for blowing door hinges off, and other types of dynamic entry, without much risk to people on the other side of the door. It hits, dumps its energy, and vapourises/disintegrates, so nothing shoots through.

Again, anyone tried them? There are videos online from manufacturers. Do you have to be in really close, or do they hang together when you fire one at a distance?

[irish]

12Guage, not all rifled slugs are Forster slugs the original patent was by Brenneke and there are still a few variations of the original one on the market, although a lot of the slugs available are forster type slugs.
There is a slug made by RC of Italy that is like a ball with a rifled wad attatched to the bottom of it (pella aqilla ?) this slug has the best penetration of any slug I've tested. They all have there good and bad points and they all tend to destroy whatever they hit :D , I will try to get a photo of my test results (before and after firing) of some different slugs and post it here.

Below is a little history of the rifled slug.

http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/4206/slughist.html

http://www.dnrws.com/rottweil.html

[PHAID]

The round you describe sounds like a bolo round.

Depending on who makes it they will have 2 round balls connected with wire or 2 flat pieces connected with wire.

here is a site that has several of the most common speciality rounds.

http://www.wapahani.com/equip3.html

the site is for a game but the descriptions and pics are accurate. the prices and damage they list is total BS.

[12Gauge]

12Guage, not all rifled slugs are Forster slugs the original patent was by Brenneke and there are still a few variations of the original one on the market, although a lot of the slugs available are forster type slugs.
True, True- although I never said all rifled slugs are foster type- there are also a third type- unrifled Foster type slugs- just a fat chunk of lead w/ or w/out a hollow point cavity.
A couple of years ago I had a bunch of "Wammo Ammo" explosive slugs- basically just a regular lead hollowpoint slug w/ some sort of explosive capped with epoxy. I don't really know if they worked at all- no big explosion or anything... but they did do some good damage to any tree I hit with it. I imagine the explosive just opened up the hollowpoint faster than it normally would.

[12Gauge]

I had some of those Dragon's Breath rounds, too. Kinda neat- huge flash and bang- shot out several "sparklers" which would travel about 50 yards- other than that- totally useless (unless maybe you shot someone from about 5ft away...)

[Shaneh]

Noooooo the .22 long rifle rimfire "shot cartridge" is for shooting vermin such as rats, sparrows etc., in and around factories, at close range by the likes of pest extrminators....

The very fine pellets and all, make for the quick use of a very light and short fire arm, at rapidly moving targets or times of limited opportunity, and the rounds are more or less very safe when discharged in such circumstances (safety glasses and ear plugs) within places where grain handling & other such activites occour.

[Jacks Complete]

The descriptions off that link are quite good. I though it would be worth adding them to our pool of knowledge.

<ul>
<li><b>Big Bird</b>:&nbsp; A military round designed
to emmulate the 40mm flashbang rounds, it is said to have a report much
like that of a 40mm grenade launcher-something which is usefull for psy-ops.</font></li>
<li><b>Blanks</b>:&nbsp; Just that-loud report
and flash when fired but no damage.</font></li>
<li><b>Bolo</b>:&nbsp; Reminescent of an old Civil
War cannon load this cartidge is comprised of two steel weights connected to a strand of steel cord.</font></li>
<li><b>Buck &amp; Ball</b>:&nbsp; A round loaded
with one slug and 6-00 buckshot pellets to offer both close up and long range stopping power.</font></li>
<li><b>Chain</b>:&nbsp; Just that, a 6 inch strand
of chain which is propelled from the shotgun shell.</font></li>
<li><b>Comet Slug:</b>&nbsp; A combination of a shotgun slug and tracer to allow one to view where the round is going
in nighttime conditions-it's yellow tracer is visible out to 300 meters</font></li>
<li><b>CS:</b>&nbsp; Used for riot control it is similiar to the FERRET round or CS grenades-but the quanity of agent
delivered is less.</font></li>
<li><b>Double Slug</b>:&nbsp; A round which is
loaded with two slugs instead of the tradtional one.</font></li>
<li><b>Door Busters</b>:&nbsp; A speciality round
for miliatary and counter-terrorist work as the load fires a find compressed load of buckshot which is used to take out the hinges on doors.</font></li>
<li><b>Dragons Breath</b>:&nbsp; A special Incendiary/Tracer
round it's effects can be quite dramatic on those unprepared for it.</font></li>
<li><b>Home Defense</b>:&nbsp; This load was designed
for civilan use as the buckshot load is made from hollow brass material which is said to not overpenetrate the target.</font></li>
<li><b>Mini Bean Bag</b>:&nbsp; Designed for riot
control or suspect apprehention it is a reduced bean bag round from the 70's.</font></li>
<li><b>Mini Grenade</b>:&nbsp; A military round designed to give the shotgun some offensive capability.</font></li>
<li><b>Riot Control</b>:&nbsp; These generally consist of wedges or other plastic batons which are used to strike people
without doing serious damage to them (thoguh the definition of serious is questionable).</font></li>
<li><b>Sabot:</b>&nbsp; Esentially a large Slug
round which is designed for Armor Piercing duties and longer range shots.</font></li>
<li><b>Teleshot</b>:&nbsp; A speciality round
of the military-it uses a unique method of being fired from the barrel (essentially a telescoping round which ejects the round)-this process greatly reduces the noise from the shotgun making it extremelly quiet.</font></li>
<li><b>Thorn:</b>&nbsp; A speciality round loaded
up with tacks instead of buckshot or slug rounds.</font></li>
</ul>

The above might give people some ideas for working up their own toys. You could even try putting a tracker bug or something in one, though I don't know if you could shoot a magnetic mine.

Shaneh, the .22 microshot cartridges I have used were perhaps capable of killing a sparrow at three inches. Beyond a foot, it wouldn't even penetrate an empty aluminium coke can, and even at six inches, it only knocked it over, leaving two very small holes. Considering how hard you need to hit a rat to kill it (I know you need a head shot with an airrifle most of the time, and I have heard about enough that crawled away when hit by .22 rounds in the hindquarters or even lungs!) I suspect these must be for about boot length distance!

Have you ever used any? What effects do they have on targets?

[Flake2m]

Has there ever been any shotgun rounds that use long headless nails or thin needles??
I would think this is the "thorn" ammo but I could be wrong.
SWIM made a round for his spud cannon that consisted of a large bunch of sewing needles. The round didn't have much of an damage pattern on cardboard because the needle just went straight through, however most of them were driven into a rather large tree that was nearby

Ok just before I get too off topic, if the same applies to a shotgun then the ammo would probaly do quite well against body armor. Nails would do more damage and should have a similar effect. SWIM would probaly use 2in long bullet head nails fly straight, since they'd be bigger and heavier.

[PHAID]

The ammunition you describe is called a flechette round.

They have been around for many years and have been made in several calibers.
You can get the parts to make your own or buy the loaded rounds.

Here are a few sites that give information on several types of rounds.

http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/007.html

http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__17/Specialized_Shotshell_Ammuniti/specialized_shotshell_ammuniti.html

http://www.wapahani.com/rifles.html

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/4-30.13/appf.htm

http://www.v8go.co.uk/business/technical/weapons/ammunition.asp

The last link gives you links to many other ammunition sites.

Hope this information helps you with what your looking for.

[12Gauge]

I know how far overpressure these things are, and I checked the proof marks, so was sure that the gun, although the wrong chamber length, could take the higher pressures invloved, and that it also has an overbore barrel with a longer forcing cone.

Fair enough- I still say this is a very bad idea. The issue isn't really that the 3" shells are higher pressure ( to begin with) than 2.75"- the fact is when stuffed into a shorter chamber, the pressure can be many times as high as with a shell designed for that chamber. Reason is that the shell will not open properly in the short chamber, increasing pressure dramatically ( over and above the difference in the two to begin with) sometimes enough to burst even new, well made guns. You sound like you have some idea of what you are doing- however many of those who browse these forums don't - and if they go out and emulate your actions with some POS single shot- not a pretty picture. The same thing could be said for much of the info in this forum- but I would at least hope that those choosing to play with explosives (and such) understand that that there is an element of danger involved.

[Jacks Complete]

12gauge,

I quite agree. You were right to point it out, and right to call me on it. That's why I took no offense. :)

The "scary" ones had an open end, with an unfamilier rolled back crimp. I reckoned it would be a lot shorter to open, as well.

You are so right, though. Headspace/chamber length is very important. That is why cartridges have a minimum cartridge overall length (COL) as well as a maximum COL. If you wnat to fuck your firearm, just hammer the bullet back into the case, and then try to fire it. For 7.62 NATO, the pressure spike doubles with 5 thousands of an inch too short, or something scary! Also, there is no way on earth I would have tried it through my single barrelled shotgun, which is a light game gun, with a light barrel, and bad recoil even on light loads. It has about a fifth as much steel as the O/U, and is Russian. It also has a small pin inside the barrel, where the foresight is! Fire a high pressure slug through that, and you wouldn't fire anything ever again!

PHAID,

I tried making flechette rounds by cutting up wire coat hanger, then grinding them. I don't recall ever firing any, though, as they were too long for the cartridges I had, and I was convinced they would somehow jam sideways in the barrel/chamber if I didn't make loads and pack them in tight.


Thanks everyone, btw, for making my first thread a good one! :D

[pangos_59]

http://www.firequest.com http://www.funammo.com

[xyz]

The second link just brings up a load of popups and other bullshit.

[Third_Rail]

Has anyone tried the 12 gauge "screamer" rounds? It's basically a large whistling firework, propelled from the shotgun. Quite fun.

[Jacks Complete]

Third_Rail,

can you provide some details? Are these novelty items, or do they have some kind of use? Are they commonly available? Who makes them?

More details in your posts, please!

[PHAID]

Jack the screamers he is talking about fall iin to the same catagory as bird bombs.

They are made for the purpose of animal control to scare birds from orchards and such.

These days they are mostly a novelty item as most places now use the propane cannons.

To locate them they are in one of the links ive posted.

[Third_Rail]

Originally posted by Jack's Complete
Third_Rail,

can you provide some details? Are these novelty items, or do they have some kind of use? Are they commonly available? Who makes them?

More details in your posts, please!
Sorry about that, mate. I personally got my screamers from Pyrotek, and they were sold to me as agricultural devices to scare small animals away. They're pretty much available everywhere where you can find either agri supplies or specialty ammunition. I believe Defense Products makes them, I'm not sure.

[t3zza]

good post hi all im also in uk.
keep up good work

[xyz]

Please don't post things that do not contribute to the thread.

I strongly advise you to read both the official rules, and the "Unwritten rules: Written Down" post in the "Water Cooler" section.

If you don't do these things then I'm sure your stay here at Rogue Science will be very short...

[Skyscraper]

Were a screamer or pepper shell (from the above sites) rigged to detonate on impact (say, with a large marble/BB taped to the primer, I don't really know, I'm just guessing), could it be used as a cheap pepper grenade/distraction weapon?

[chokingvictim78]

Skyscraper, I'm not quite sure if that would work out so well. First of all, what are you going to fire the entire shell from? How would you stabilize it during flight? They wouldn't be cheap, either, compared to something you could make at home. A simple hollow projectile made from thin plastic could house your irrirating agent, and a small amount of impact sensetive explosive in the middle of all of it. The irritating agent could also simply be pressurized somehow, eliminating the need for an explosive to be used at all. Somewhat off-topic, but I saw a program about non-lethal weapons pigs are starting to use, one was a semi-automatic paintball gun that fired pepperballs, which were paintball shells filled with pepper. They fired 3 shots at a dummy, and it was completely surrounded by a cloud of the powdered pepper. If ammo like this were to be improvised, it could be carried around in a car or backpack inconspicuously, as long as you had regular paintball gear and some normal paint along with it.

[Flake2m]

No one here has really mentioned shotgun grenades.
NBK made a PDF on a hypothetical way to make improvised shotgun grenades using a CO2 canister.
It'd also be intresting to know what some of the more exotic ammo types are used for. Ammo types such as chain, bolo and thorn ammo would have very intrest damage patterns but I have no idea what the would be used for.

[Skyscraper]

Originally posted by chokingvictim78
Skyscraper, I'm not quite sure if that would work out so well. First of all, what are you going to fire the entire shell from? How would you stabilize it during flight? They wouldn't be cheap, either, compared to something you could make at home. A simple hollow projectile made from thin plastic could house your irrirating agent, and a small amount of impact sensetive explosive in the middle of all of it. The irritating agent could also simply be pressurized somehow, eliminating the need for an explosive to be used at all. Somewhat off-topic, but I saw a program about non-lethal weapons pigs are starting to use, one was a semi-automatic paintball gun that fired pepperballs, which were paintball shells filled with pepper. They fired 3 shots at a dummy, and it was completely surrounded by a cloud of the powdered pepper. If ammo like this were to be improvised, it could be carried around in a car or backpack inconspicuously, as long as you had regular paintball gear and some normal paint along with it.

The shell wouldn't be fired, it'd go off on impact with the ground. You'd throw it (Assuming I'm correct about this marble thing. I'm just guessing, really.) and it'd detonate. Since these aren't regular shotshells, they don't have to be stabilized or actually pointed at anything. You could make a mace grenade, sure, but the shotgun shell is pre-assembled, and cheap.

Yeah, the malodrant launchers. IIRC the new FN rifle mounts an one, a FN 303. Their site says they rupture on impact, though, and you'd need to be a major league pitcher to actually get an impact that would shatter it, I suspect. Also, they're only .68 cal, so they'd be unlikely to actually affect an entire room.
You can buy a box of 150 .68 OC capsules for 445 USD, so they cost about three bucks a pop.


Flake: Thanks, I'll look out for the PDF. I imagine the whackier rounds are really just used for entertainment purposes. As far as entertainment rounds are concerned, I've always wondered about making a screw-filled shell.

[Jacks Complete]

The bolo idea doesn't work, in my experiance. Has anyone had any sucess with anything like that?

[wrench352]

In another thread,the need for less than leathal loads was brought up,to which I inquired about "salt shot".Salt shot at onetime was quite popular,it is, for those who dont know,just a shell filled with rocksalt.I heard being shot with this is quite painful.When I asked about commercial availability I was told by a fellow forumite to go google it.As much as I tried to search,to no avail.I then emailed a dealer I know in gourmet stuff,and was given a name and number.Apparently an individual.Also while I was thinking about this,how bout if you loaded a shotshell with phosphorus.Ouch!I would never use one of those pepper rounds myself,it sounds like a potential nightmare.
One type of shot shell,not discussed so far is the safety disc.Here it is discussed in shotgun news:
Recectly I tested one of interesting and efficient shotgun shell loads I have ever had the pleasure to evaluate.The safetydisc load is a real answer to modern problems,but it is based upon a legendary shotgun load. In the wild,wild west-mean times-one of the more devastating shotgun loads was filled with dimes.You have to remember,shotgun shell technology was in its infancy.A heavy loaded ten gauge was not really equal to the modern 12-guage load.
The shotgun was a good short range piece,but we mean truly short range.Doc Holiday once gave a miscreant both barrels of his 10-guage and the man ran nearly a block before expireing.The range was longer the inside of the bar.
Something else was neede,and a perceived need is as good as any.Stacking a roll of dimes in a shotgun shell delivered a devasting blow.Ballistic properties were just about nil,but the charge, if used,would work wonders.I am sure the mere threat of such a load would deter a wild cowboy.George Clark has come up with a modern equivalent that shows great promise.
But the load is not only effective in the self defense context,this loading also offers greater safety to others in the household or outside the home.The Safetydisc shell uses round disks that are partially serrated to ensure they break up when they strike a target.The heavey metal alloy gives an aggressive slap on the target.
However,when they strike heavey furniture or even walls they give up all of their energy.Fired at the range at distances past 50 yards,they pose little threat.The pattern opens up about one inch per yard.These results were verified in my remington 870,with the Hastings custom barrel giving a tighter pattern overall.
When safety and wound potential are considered,the safetydisc works.
www.safetydiscammo.com (http://www.safetydiscammo.com)

[Skyscraper]

Originally posted by wrench352
Also while I was thinking about this,how bout if you loaded a shotshell with phosphorus.
That (or something like it) has been done before. The problem there is that you're firing the shell from a gun, and to leave the gun, the phosphorous has to go out the barrel. In most cases, some of the incindiary material sticks, and you get a ruined (or at least damaged) barrel. That's why you generally don't want to use any of those flamethrower-type shells unless you have a cheap throwaway shotgun that you really don't want anymore.
You could make a phosphorous slug, I suppose, but I'm sure some of it would still stick in the barrel, and I'm not sure what you'd be shooting that wouldn't die after being hit by a regular lead slug.

[Jacks Complete]

I wondered about the coins idea when I saw one of the Billy the Kid films. Last time I was in the states, I brought back some coins, and, it turns out, the "new" 5p is the same size. I never made the shell, though, as I wasn't confident about it.

Anyone tried it?

The article would seem to be wrong, though, as a dime is just right for a 12, but would be too small for a 10.

[Dave the Rave]

1st - At my Country, farmer do use salt shots to protect their trees from little thiefs who came to steal their fruits. When I was a kid, I used to steal apples from a farm near my home and, one nigth, me and a friend of mine was caugth by the farmer while stealing their goods, and when we run away, the farmer shot me at my back. The bark was worst than the bite. I´ve got some bruises, some little wounds and quite a salty burn, but it was all. The shot itself was "sal grosso" regular prills of salt, sold at markets as spicy to barbecues. The prills are the size of beans, ligthweigth, so the range isn´t far or acurate. The farmers simply open an regular 12ga shot, take out the lead and pour in the salt, then they crimp and seal back the case and it´s done.

2nd - On the subject of shotgun ammo and shotguns itself,

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/Shotguns.html

some nice thougths, more on shotguns than on ammnition...

3th - I´ve tried the coins once, I saw the movie "young guns II" and tahe some one cent coins from my country. The coins fit on a 36ga perfectly, but the experience won´t worth my 5 cents. The shot isn´t acurate, the coins tend to fly upwards, with an ugly pattern, maybe 10 inchs out of the aiming point at 10 meters, plus the stopping power of the shot barely take out my ballistic gelatin.

[irish]

A mate of mine often talks about getting shot with saltpeter as a kid pinching stuff of the market gardens, I'm told it's not a fun experince getting the little lumps out :D .
As for coins out of a shotgun, I would be a bit worried that the muzzle end of the barrel would go flying down range with the load when the stack of coins hit the choke, If they where smaller than the choke restriction they probably will get a lot of gas blowby and pattern even worse (if that's possible :rolleyes: ).

[12Gauge]

http://www.sabredefence.com/ammunition/
This link has a variety of "less lethal" 12 Gauge ammo, for those interested in such things. I doubt these are easily available, but would likely be easy to make if you wanted to...

[atr]

First post here guys but i have some experience with shotguns so here goes . I've owned a hunting/guideing/outfitting service since 1980 and in that time i've been in on about 400 black bear kills . Of that , about 100 were taken with shotguns over bait .
One slug stands out against all others and that is the foster , Brenneke 3 inch magnum . Out to 100 yards it will shoot completely through any bear at any angle . No other slug will do that . Saboted slugs for rifled barrels have a slight accuracy edge but i've never seen one shoot through a bear and have seen many times where multiple shots were required .
Some will say that a slug that doesn't go through imparts all of it's energy therefore is more efficient whereas a slug that completely passes through is a waste of energy but based on real life experience i prefer a big hole in and a bigger hole out .
There was some discussion regarding the shooting of 3 inch slugs from a 2.75 inch chambered gun . I've done it , a few times but wouldn't recommend it . The only ill effect i found was that the spent shells would not clear the ejection port and had to be picked out with a knife blade .
I recently purchased a Remington 870P with a 14 inch modified choke barrel . My buckshot patterns weren't what i desired so i had my gunsmith install a flush fit full choke . That worked well but i worried a little about shooting slugs through a fully choked barrel so i e-mail , customer service at Brenneke , since they are the only slugs i'd bet my butt on in bear country.
Brenneke was fast to reply and they actually cleared up a misconception i had regarding the rifled fins swaged into thier slugs . I thought that they were to impart spin to stabilize but Brenneke replied that the fins on thier foster slugs were there to swage down so they could be fired in a fully choked shotgun . They also warned not to shoot any of thier sabot slugs through a full choke as they are designed for rifled barrels of improved cylinder or modified choke .
Improvised ammo , i tried flechettes made from finishing nails . Mine were totally unimpressive . A 6 foot shot pattern at 10 yards . I only fired 3 of them on paper but i won't be makeing anymore . Can't get the Dragons Breath around here so i dumped the shot from a shell and replaced it with a mixture of highway flare and powdered magnesium . They will light up the night but i know of no practical application for them . I've tried cutting the shot shells at the wad to make slugs and that works . I guess it's like a pre-fragmented single projectile . One test was two sheets of 1/2 inch plywood at 30 yards with one sheet of plywood spaced 2 feet behing the other . There was a single hole in the first sheet and a 6 inch diameter hole in the second . Don't cut the shells all the way through , just cut them enough to weaken them at the wad . I know of a fellow that tried it but cut the shell all the way through and i believe that there was about a 1/8 inch gap between the 2 sections when he fired . The result was a buldged barrel , but it could have been much worse .
If i have any advice it would be to stick to factory ammo as they make it for everything from moose to mice .
On a final note i tried some .22 shotshells from a 4 inch revolver . Some refer to them as snake loads . My cowboy boots are snakeskin so i set one up at a range of 3 yards . The shot scuffed the polish but nothing penetrated or even stuck in the surface of the boot . Those shotshells were manufactured by CCI . The preformance may be a bit better from a rifle but i won't be buying anymore .

[thesentenial]

Originally posted by Jack's Complete
I wondered about the coins idea when I saw one of the Billy the Kid films.


Jack's Complete : In your reference to the "coin idea". It was used in the old west. It was used to maximize close range punch without over penetration. There is a round here in the US that is simular it is called a Safety Slug. I apologize but i do not remember which company was manufacturing it. It is comprized of many lead/antimony disks scored three times across the face. Many police forces are using them to eliminate overpenetration i.e. killing inoccents on the other side of an interior wall. It only seems to be for close range so it might not be of much use as many light disks will certianly lose inertia rather quickly.

[YTS]

Theres a section on improvised shotgun shells in one of the pmjb cant remember which one . It metioned ringed rounds among other things.

[wrench352]

That sounds like washers,eek.I never really endorsed the safteydisc load,it just hadnt really been discussed.I like #4 low recoil myself, its good for most situations.Slugs for everythingelse.I wonder if most of these "funky" loads would work in a real life situation.The only exceptions being the doorbusters and the flechettes,which I intend to buy a case of,now that Ive seen they actually work.The marines toyed with them for a while,but to the best of my knowledge no service branch uses them.They sound brutal,not killing the target straight away,but disableing him,leaving him screaming in agony,to freak out the other targets.

[thesentenial]

Jack's Complete the load you refer to is the safetydisc load made by SafetyDisc at http://www.sefetydiscammo.com P.O. Box 3132 Kingman, Az 86402-3132.

To the moderators I would've edited my post but it didnt show up, so if I screwed up lemme know.

[RIP]

My father shot a "peeper" with a rock salt 12ga shell. Turned out it was a neighbor kid from down the street. Never peeped again! Also, for those out there that have 40mm launchers, Mr 40mm makes an adapter you can fire real 12 ga ammo, including all the above, out of your GL. I have a 40mm and adapters for all gauges common un the US. I like the .410 the best. Easy on the launcher and sholder when firing the carbine.

[Anthony]

IIRC "ringed" cartridges are ones that have been cut around the wad, as described above.

Also, I recall a discussion on another forum about those .22 dust rounds. Apparently, performance when fired from a smoothbore rather than a rifled bore is very different. Perhaps this difference would allow close range ratting?

[charger]

This is about the 22 dust round. The college down the street from me uses 22 dust rounds to collect small animal specimins. apparantly the dust is enough to kill a snake or rodent from close range without damaging the specimin

[xyz]

Yeah, with those .22 shotshells, they only work properly when fired from a smoothbore barrel. If they are fired from a rifled barrel then a lot of energy is wasted spinning the shot load therefore you get less penetration. The other problem with rifled barrels is that, due to centrigugal force, the shot spreads into a wide "doughnut" pattern with all the shot on the edges and none in the centre (where you were aiming).

Also, the crimped variety of .22 shotshells work much better than the plastic capped ones such as those manufactured by CCI.

[Ammonal]

Yeah I can agree fully with XYZ's last post, although I have no problem relying on Winchester 'ratshot' as they are called around here mincing a rabbit at 10 yards from a 2" smoothbore barrel, fired from a rifled barrel you just kick up a huge cloud of dust around the rabbit. These are of course the .22 magnum length casing with 1/16" lead shot and a crimped end. Matter of fact its just getting into snake season round here so I bought a couple of boxes and have nearly finished making my self a 3.5" barrelled single shot specifically for just having near when you come across a bloody 6 foot long brown snake.

Mods: if I post some pics here of the gun and a heap of 'ratshot' for informational and comparative purposes would this be alright?

Sure, just make sure that any images you post don't stretch the page horizontally when viewed at 800x600

[keith]

Instead of making a new thread I'l post this in here. I have a Rem. Express 12g. Has anyone ever extended their mag capacity. I do combat drills and police compotition drills with shotguns pistols and tac. rifles. My shotgun isnt up to scratch for these drills and even with the mag plug removed I have to reload after my 5 shells are gone to engage any final targets while my friends who actually have real combat shotguns and not some fucking hunting shotgun dont have to. I toast them at the pistol and rifle range but I need my shotgun mag extended. Anyone know how to make one?

[guerrero]

A very interesting site with diferent types of improvised slugs I found in the web: http://guns.connect.fi/gow/historia4.html Especially the sovjetish P.M.D.K. SABOT SLUG seems to be very well designed. Generally the guns.connect page is very interesting.

----------------

If you post a link, try it first. I fixed it for you this time. It might be worth mentioning that the site you're leading us to does not only contain Finnish but also English text. Else everyone will close it at once when he sees that he cannot understand a word of what's standing on the first page.

Rhadon

[AsylumSeaker]

Not really a weapon, but improvised shotgun slug none the less is to replace the buckshot with stars from a firework and you have a stargun. Never tried it but sounds fun. I hear you can actually buy these in america but I doubt you can here. Something else would be to put a little plastic bag of petrol or some other flamable liquid or some naptha in the shell in place of a projectile and shoot fireballs. Has anyone thought of taking a throwing dart, or manufacturing their own dart which can be encased in a sabot as a shotgun projectile. I havn't used a shotgun other than an old double barrel type where you open it on its hinge to put the shells in. This way it shouldn't matter if the dart is longer than a normal shell, you could just have the pointy end of the dart sticking out in the middle of the crimping.

[irish]

You would have to have a way of lighting the stars when they were fired, putting them in a shotshell on a wad and firing them will just make a load that looks like anyother (only non lethal). Also pyro stars will bugger the barrel of your gun if you don't clean it within a very short time.
You may be able to make a load like a small open ended pyro shell with a timefuse with one end in the propellent powder and the other in a bit of blackpowder with the stars around that.
The hard bit would be makeing a timefuse that will light with smokeless and getting the delay so it will fire the stars not long after it leaves the gun.
It will also have to fit thru the choke of your shot gun .

With the dart just remember that whatever the shot weight the powder charge was meant to propel, if your dart is hevyer it may be very bad for your health ;) .

[CommonScientist]

Here is an interesting shotgun load, the flechette. My dad used a bigger version in Vietnam in his M79 GL. <A HREF="http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/005.html">Click to go to page</A HREF>

[Third_Rail]

A simple solution can be had, though; using any sbs shotgun that you don't truly care about, use "coyboy" shells (blackpowder loaded shells) and no wad at all. The stars would ignite and be propelled out of the barrel for certain... although, as irish said, if you don't clean it right away, say hello to corrosion and other fun surprises.

[Fergus]

The Dragon's Breath round I fired was most impressive; it'd be great if you wanted to greet a gang of thugs witha nice warm-up present. Not to be used in the house though!!! The trouble with the flechette rounds is that they do not hold a sufficient number of darts to really be efective. The 106mm recoilless rifle flechette rounds we had in the army contained 6,000 darts; they were most effective.

[Yorki_pyro]

www.guns2u.com
These folks sell some rubber bullet loaded shotshells (as well as a "self defence pistol" to fire them)

[Jacks Complete]

I have thought of a great "new" shell to construct. Out shopping the other day, I spotted a packet of bamboo skewers, for 77p for a whole load. Nice and straight, should be pretty strong. I shall be loading a shell up with a whole lot of 12" rods, and testing that!

I think they will act a little like a flechette round... :)

I won't be able to test fire it for some time, though. I promise to get the digicam on the case, though.

[zaibatsu]

I doubt that'd be very dangerous, apart from maybe taking someones eye out.

[Caesar]

MY freind was messing around with reloading his shells. He has a cute little 12 guage that takes magun laods. If you have ever heard of the bean bags that police use as a less lethal technique, you will know what i am talking about. He took a small piece of cloth and filled it with 7 size shot. He laoded it into the shell, but forgot to reduce the charge. It went through a tree. he also put rice in a load. there was no recoil, and it sucked. not very loud at all, and it smells wierd. One idea i have is to grind up glass and load that beast up, but i am afraid of what it might do to the barrel. i need input on that idea.

[Caesar]

i meant magnum loads.

[Jacks Complete]

I doubt that'd be very dangerous, apart from maybe taking someones eye out.
Well, maybe for vampires?

Seriously, you think sharpened bamboo skewers doing ~Mach 1 wouldn't sting more than a little? 35 of them?

I know they don't weigh much, but they have a lot of length, so the mass to CSA should be enough for them to carry a fair way. I reckon 25-35 yards.

Stability might be an issue, and I expect the group to be somewhat large, even fairly close, but we shall see (probably not for six weeks+ though)

[zaibatsu]

I reckon that as soon as they start to leave the barrel they will start to fan out, and as soon as they're not travelling straight they will slow down very fast. But what diameter of bamboo skewers are we talking about? I think I may be thinking of the wrong things - 2mm diameter?

[Dave the Rave]

JC, are you talking about those bamboo "rashi" ? You know, the chopstick ?

Around here it´s 2mm dia, 15 centimeters long, cut directly paralell to the fiber´s alignment. Small flechetes can be cut, 5 centimeters long to sharpen the point, but it´s not very funtional, as it´s an light load. I think that, by 10ft it can stop anyone, at least for a while.

The point is that it´s not really precise, but if you cut it´s back, cross section, you´ll get four traction points to stabilize the flechet.

I´m trying another round, it´s an piece of white pinus, an very soft wood, cut and round the size of the gauge and with an holle drilled, from top to almost bottom.

This hole, that on one 12ga. is the size of one .44, is then filled with molten lead to form an slug. After that, I cut diagonal grooves, from top to bottom, on the wood, to make it spin when shot and to easily disinthegrate the wood after it contacts the target. The wood acts as an discarding sabot to guide the slug and give a very high rate of acuracy.

Another kind of shot is based on the same principles, but, instead of the lead be poured directly on the hole, an small piece of copper tubbing is put inside the hole and then, the molten lead. It gives an softpoint metaljacket slug, with good penetration and an beautifull mushroom pattern.

[Jacks Complete]

They are skewers, your sizes and description seems about right. But Dave, a 2mm thick chopstick would be rather tricky! I know they aren't for long range work, but these are just for fun! It will be interesting to see how long they stay straight, too.

Dave, for your idea, I think you would do better to drill a brick for the casting, else the lead will set fire to the wood. Let us know how you get on.

[Dave the Rave]

JC, sometimes I forget that we can do things just for fun... ;)

About the brick isn´t very good, as it can scrach the bore of the gun, and won´t brake prior to hit the target. The white pinus don´t burn when filled with molten lead, it will merely "toast" a bit... The lead won´t be put incandescent on the wood, it will be poured a little cooled.

First I´ve tried to soak the wood on water, to cool donw the lead, but it was an disaster, the vapour tried to pass through the molten lead, splashing it everywhere... Then I found that a little on wax on the walls of the piece of wood can protect it from being burned, and also, to ease the flux of lead to it don´t develop bubles inside the slug.

I´ve found, also, that when an small piece of copper tubing is inside of the wood, it steals much of the temperature of the lead, and it don´t allows the wood be burnt.

The next weekend I´ll go to my family´s farm and I´ll test my shots, after that I´ll post.

[Jacks Complete]

Dave,

no, I meant use the brick as a mould, then pop it out, and attach to the wood.

I can see what you are getting at, though. Try using oak, or a good hardwood, and it should be better than softwood. Firstly it has a lower moisture content, and second it resists fire far better, turning to a harder charcoal.

Let us know how you get on!

[THAT Dude]

Firequest now sells a bolo round.
It consists of two lead slugs connected by a steel wire :D .
I think it would be useful for cutting the legs out from under a druguser
(you know the kind of drug that makes it hard to kill them[pcp I think]).
www.firequest.com also sells many other specialized types of ammo.

[shadow2501]

One word on those french boar hunt cartridge,french police force uses an enhanced version of those,one metal dart within a plastic container,at the impact the container is stopped but the dart continues further in the target, new version of this PAR (reinforced action projectile) can go throught car door,disable a motor or a class 2 body armour as if it was butter.But since the container is plastic made,maybe a defense pistol should support the firing of those cartridges, replacing rubber bullets by armor piercing ones fired with a simple to buy (in Europe) gun should be interesting :D

[BaDSeeD]

Your "calculated risk" was pretty damned stupid.
I havn't been on this forum in a long long time, and now I remember why I left.

Foolish kids doing things that are just idiotic.

First off, firing a 3 inch shell out of a 2 3/4 inch chamber has not a damned thing to do with pressures.
A 2 3/4 inch chamber only has enough room for the crimp on that size shell to open.
When you fired a 3 inch shell the crimp opened and overlapped the shoulder at the end of the chamber where it starts into the barrel. That causes a blockage where the shot load and wad cant cleanly exit the barrel. The pressure ratings for the shells are unobstructed pressures. When you fired didn't you notice that you probably ripped the crimp right off the shell? Not neatly opened it? You probably now have a bulge in your barrel, and your damned lucky that it didn't rumpture in your face.
I've seen that happen from other idiots that can't read the print on the side of the barrel "FOR 2 3/4 INCH SHELLS ONLY!!!". One of the jackasses lost his right eye, and quite a bit of his face and nose. Not to mention destroying a beautiful Browning Gold.
Do you think they put that there for shits and giggles? The pressure you hit in that gun was probably 3 - 4 times HIGHER than what the shells are supposed to fire at.
Your trying to talk about this subject like you are an authority on it, and your just going to get some kid killed.
And before you wonder what kind of an authority I am on the subject. I just turned 29 yesterday. I have been firing rifles and shotguns weekly sometimes daily since I was 11 years old.
I reload shotgun, pistol and rifle. I compete in long range rifle, rifle silhouette, pistol silhouette, action pistol, sporting clays, trap, skeet, and even 3D archery.
I AM and authority on the subject. Your "calculated risks" are either going to get you or someone else killed. If its someone else I hope you can live with yourself when you find out. If its you, well then we can all agree that Darwins law is beneficial to humans as well. You'll have improved the population, by removing yourself from it.


Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem. -Virgil's Aeneid

[guerrero]

A very interesting modification of a single shot shotgun, used by the cuban guerrilla is a mortar for molotov cocktails. They used it with exit at a distance of about 100 meters.

[Jacks Complete]

Wow, that's quite something. Do you think it exceeds 2.5 inches though?

Has anyone ever tried anything like this? I think getting 100 yards would be impossible with a heavy glass bottle full of petrol/oil mix - a stick doesn't go that far!

Also, that picture should surely show a lanyard! If the stick goes through the bottle base, you will be on fire in .02 of a second!

(There's quite a lot missing from this thread, like my lengthy reply on why what I did was fine, the remote firing tests, checking for bulges and signs of cartridge overpressure, etc. I assume it went after iDickhead closed us down. To paraphase:

Yes, you know a lot, but so do I. I'm fine, I posted that it was dangerous, and that you shouldn't try it at home. What more can I do? I did it over TEN years ago.)

[THAT Dude]

I read about how to make a shotgun into a grenade or Molotov cocktail launcher in The Anarchist Handbook (by Robert Wells).
The launcher in the book looks like what you are describing (I can't open pictures).
In the book he states that you should be able to get a range of about 160 yards, but I think that is a little optimistic.
It seams like it should work, but I have not tried it.

[lowjack]

Thats the 1st anarchist cookbook??? no!?? I think william powell wrote the one with page after page of incorrect harmful info.

[Ropik]

It is the classic from Improvised munitions handbook. Using shotgun to launch hand grenade or fire bottle. According to the IMH, it can send grenade 160 yards away, 80 for a fire bottle. Reduce the powder charge in the shell to 1/2 (for grenade) or to 1/3(for a molotov). When a bottle is the desired projectile, always test fire with similar water-filled one to ensure that the lauching shock will not break it and incinerate you.
Personally, I would not attempting something like this except in a very desperate circumstances. Even then, try it only with modern shotguns in good condition and don't use any "hot" loaded shell for launching. However, I'd be interested in anybody's dreamsabout this technique.

[Jacks Complete]

LOL... This is why I wondered if anyone had done this, and if it had worked.

I know there are a lot of "classic" tricks that do nothing but kill the user!

[Tribal]

This is rather interesting! You mean the classic trick with C4 in the shell? That might come in handy only when you need to kill your hunting comrade. I'd never shoot from suidicide shells...

[Jacks Complete]

Suicide shells. /nice
Murder shells!

You take any cartrigde, fill it full of any HE, and give it someone to fire from a gun. The Viet Cong did this, to get US troops who took war trophies. BANG! The gun explodes, and takes half your face with it.

[THAT Dude]

I found out that a 12gram co2 cartridge fits snugly into a 12gage shell.
That makes shooting all sorts of odd things possible like, Gyrojet style rockets :D , steel jacketed slugs, creater makers, ect.
(Ofcorse it would be better to shoot them from a 10gage with a sabot to keep from damaging your gun.)

[THAT Dude]

I found out that a 12gram co2 cartridge fits snugly into a 12gage shell.
That makes shooting all sorts of odd things possible like, Gyrojet style rockets :D , steel jacketed slugs, creater makers, ect.
(Ofcorse it would be better to shoot them from a 10gage with a sabot to keep from damaging your gun.)

[THAT Dude]

I found out that a 12gram co2 cartridge fits snugly into a 12gage shell.
That makes shooting all sorts of odd things possible like, Gyrojet style rockets :D , steel jacketed slugs, creater makers, ect.
(Ofcorse it would be better to shoot them from a 10gage with a sabot to keep from damaging your gun.)

[Jacks Complete]

THAT dude,

how tight a fit is it? You could try different makes, and I would suggest testing each one before starting work on it, in case some are a bit too tight compared to the next.

You could always just take a little metal off with some wire wool or glasspaper.

Let us know how you get on.

[Jacks Complete]

THAT dude,

how tight a fit is it? You could try different makes, and I would suggest testing each one before starting work on it, in case some are a bit too tight compared to the next.

You could always just take a little metal off with some wire wool or glasspaper.

Let us know how you get on.

[Jacks Complete]

THAT dude,

how tight a fit is it? You could try different makes, and I would suggest testing each one before starting work on it, in case some are a bit too tight compared to the next.

You could always just take a little metal off with some wire wool or glasspaper.

Let us know how you get on.

[Cobalt.45]

Some interesting 12 ga ammo. I believe Delta was mentioned earlier, but this has recent releases-

Pepper, flechette, duplex, "triplex", armor piercing, blanks, double slug, slug and 00 buck combo, 2” mushrooming, 7-10 round mag extensions, etc. My personal favorite is the 12 GA. Exploder: "A stabilized, finned slug with a deep hollow core for loading combustible materials."
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/pg31.html

Mini Missile 12 ga “armor piercing”: http://www.dbcpyrotechnics.com/servlet/the-787/9rds--dsh--12-Gauge/Detail

Extreme Shock 12 ga “silent frangible”, “whistle” and “cubic” shot and other rifle and handgun cartridges, including "enhanced penetration": http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product.html&setup=1&ida=7&idp=0&his=0&cart_id=333251.8584

[iHME]

There's a short pdf on scribd about building a explosive shotgunslug from a co2 cartridge.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6047003/shotgungrenademadabe