Sugar Black Powder

[Zero]

I have a friend who swears by this stuff. It involves replacing the charcoal in the usual black powder mixture with sucrose. He claims it's just as good as regular black powder but insists that he forgets the proper proportions.

I think it's time I quit listening to my friends.

Regardless, I've been poking around on the web for information on this and turning up nothing. (Well, not nothing. I did find <a href="http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Recipe/Chicken_Bean_Enchiladas.htm" target="_blank">this recipie</a>, but it doesn't help me much...)

So. Has anyone any information on this? Once I put my ball mill back together I'll make up a batch with the usual black powder proporotions and see how badly it sucks. In the meantime, does anyone have the proper proportions for this mixture?

~Zero the Inestimable

[Arkangel]

I don't have a recipe for the sucrose "black", but it can't be worse than the barbecue charcoal I have been trying to use for convenience, so I'm going to do some testing. If that doesn't work I'll be using chicken and cumin powder as per your other recipe. :p

[Kettch42mk.2]

In the dark days before I had a scale, I used quite a bit of this stuff, as it was a lot easier to get the correct ratio by volume than with proper black powder. Though I'm sure it varied from batch to batch, the proportion of ingredients was probably something like 40% Sugar, 10% Sulfur, and 50% KNO3. In my experience, it burns too slowly to explode with much reliability unless you use a lot (200+ grams) in very strong confinement. It makes a decent fuel for core-burning rockets (press it soaked with acetone).

The most useful application I've found for it is in improvised fuses. Take a piece of fine steel wool (xx or finer) and burn it. Roll it in the powder several times, twisting it tight as you roll. Then dip it in NC lacquer, and let it dry. It takes a little practice to get the amount and shape of the steel wool right, but if you're out of visco, it makes a fair substitute.

[Zero]

I was thinking about using this for cratermaker loads for mass-market sale. My black powder is too precious and matchheads are a pain.

Your mixture sounds to me like it was a little oxidizer deficient (based on my findings by meddling with melted KNO3/sucrose smokebombs), but before I experiment I can't pass judgement.

Just wondering if anyone knew.

I fired up the ball mill today and actually got it to turn. We're moving along, slowly but steadily...

~Zero the Inestimable

[Kettch42mk.2]

My mixture might very well have been oxidizer deficient. Lacking a scale, I was reduced to testing small batches and looking at the residue, and then adding more sugar or KNO3, trying to get the best ratio. Not exactly the most effective way to produce a decent powder.

[Zero]

Ah. Indeed.

I tried the ball mill today. Motor blew.

Back to the drawing board...

~Zero the Inestimable

[mark]

Zero, surley you cant be serious about selling of cratemakers to the pulic at large? Theyll kill them selves, or worse, the inocent bystanders ogling at the show.

[NoltaiR]

And if you ever got busted for selling an explosive (whether powered by an HE or LE), you might as well have been caught dealing the columbian snow because your ass just earned an all expenses paid vacation to your local prison so that Bruno can now have a new bitch.

[vonK]

I think this sugar based powder being as good as real black powder is
k3\/\/l legend.
I had a k3\/\l once try to convince me of this stuff but the guy was a fag and also believed you could substitute cornflakes for the charcoal.
It works fairly well as a core-burning rocket propellant though.
I had plans of making and selling 100 black powder skyrockets to guys at school last Guy Fawkes but it took so long doing everthing from scratch (rolling my own tubes etc) that I only sold about 20.
It wasn't worth all the effort just to sell them, I'd rather keep them for my self.

[Zero]

I didn't think it would be a perfect substitute for black powder, but if it can burst a CO2 cartridge and make a little bang it's good enough for me. The trouble for me is obtaining large amounts of suitable charcoal for this sort of thing. I unfortunately haven't much leeway for torching big pots of willow in by backyard...

~Zero the Inestimable

[Zambosan]

Can't you get lump charcoal (not bricquets)? They're usually hardwood, but they still work reasonably well.

[mark]

Im pretty sure dealing bombs(as they are clasified by the authorities) is a major fellony. I strongly advise against you selling the things, ecept maybee to your competent friends.

[Zero]

You can go your way, I can go mine...

~Zero the Inestimable

[mark]

Fair enough, but there are more profitable misdemeners out there that are less difficult.

Btw, if you do sell these things, at least give them 6 inches of fuse and saftey instructions.

[NoltaiR]

Just search for a topic called 'improvised black powder' or something similar... I posted quite a bit about why and why not to use hardwood charcoal 'briquettes' (the ones that don't contain clay) in the manufacture of BP.

Anyways, if your friends are not intelligent enough to make their own explosives, then there is a good chance that they would not be intelligent enough to deploy them properly.

[mark]

Exactly my thinking.

[Zero]

Indeed.

Try as I might, I can't seem to find lump charcoal anywhere around here. Kingman Charcoal Briquettes, With New EZ Light Formula, yes. Straight lump charcoal, no. Most irritating. I have, however, recently found a willow tree... I'll have to take the wagon and the tree saw down there and see if anyone notices that thing missing a few branches.

I'm still interested in sugar powder experiments now, though, but it may be a while until I find a new mill motor due to lack of funding. I could make money, you see, but I've nothing to sell with nothing to make it with.

Danged hole in my bucket, there is.

~Zero the Inestimable

[vulture]

A very good source for charcoal are active carbon filters. That can either be air filters or water filters. I just grind the pellets in my coffeegrinder. Then it's airfloat and burns like hell.

[James]

4RNO₃ + C₆H₁₂O₆ -> 6CO₂ +6H₂O + 2N₂ + 4R
8RNO₃ + C₁₂H₁₁O₁₁ -> 12CO₂ +11H₂O + 4N₂ + 8R
C₆H₁₂O₆ = 120.1048 g/mol
C₁₂H₁₁O₁₁ = 331.2123 g/mol
NaNO₃ = 84.9947 g/mol
KNO₃ = 101.1032 g/mol

Mixtures (oxygen balanced)
23% glucose to 77% NaNO₃ roughly 2:7 by mass
26% glucose to 74% KNO₃ roughly 1:3 by mass
33% sugar to 67% NaNO₃ roughly 1:2 by mass
29% sugar to 71% KNO₃ roughly 3:7 by mass
roughly, you might want to add more sugar to the first two mixtures, and nitrates to the secon two. I am pulling these figures from theory. Values are also only applicable to material derived from the Earth.
retroactive patches, I messed up big.

<small>[ April 22, 2002, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: James ]</small>

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

If you have a shortage of wood, you could just roast sucrose. The result will be a mass of carbon. Make sure the sugar doesn't ignite when it is being heated, though.

[Kettch42mk.2]

Does pure carbon really work that well for black powder? I seem to recall reading that one of the rasons softwood charcoal works better is that is usually has more impurities than hardwood.

[DBSP]

No he had other names too.

[vulture]

Dehydrating paper, sucrose or any other carbon containing solid with H2SO4 also produces carbon.

[Kettch42mk.2]

In response to Project IGI, this name comes from my original, Kettch42, which was banned a couple of weeks ago because I accidentally hit "post topic" instead of "post reply" on my first post (Check banned for life). The mk2 denotes that this is the second iteration of the Kettch42 persona. Any resemblance to other name suffixes is purely coincidental.

[xoo1246]

James: C6H12O6 isn't table sugar, it's actually glucose.
C12H22O11 is table sugar.

[James]

Ack, Actually now I think table sugar is C₁₁H₂₀O₁₀. Which means the second sugar listed above would be what, maltose? I think sucrose (table sugar) is essential a glucose-frutose disacharide. I recall fructose is C₅H₁₀O₅.

11RNO₃ + 3C₁₁H₂₀O₁₀ -> 33CO₂ + 10H₂O + 11N₂ + 11R

C₁₁H₁₀O₁₀ = 302.194 g/mol
Try a 50/50 mixture of the sucrose & sodium nitrate, and a 5/4 mixture of sucrose/potassium nitrate.
Edit: formatting correction, Formula correction

<small>[ April 22, 2002, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: James ]</small>

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

Sucrose is C12H22O11.

[vonK]

In my experience, NaNO3 sucks.
I have made sugar based rockets like the ones on Nakka's site with both NaNO3 and KNO3. NaNO3/sucrose produced a smoke bomb while KNO3/sucrose in the same motor flew maybe 10m before blasting out its end plug and nozzle.
The difference in burn rate between the two propellants was huge.

[HOOPS123]

VonK, do you melt your rocket fuel like Nakka?

[vonK]

Yeah, I melt it. It seems to make the propellant burn so much better, not to mention there is no need to pound heaps of propellant .
Melting is so much easier and better, especially if you use dextrose or sorbitol.
I buy my dextrose at the supermarket as brewing sugar.
Dextrose melts so much easier than sucrose, it doesn't caramelize nearly as quickly and stays molten for ages so you don't have to rush to cast it.
I've made a couple of succesful D class PVC engines with this stuff, the only problem I have is making a good rocket. So far I've had them spin circles, fly horizontally and weave through the air but none have gone straight up.

<small>[ April 23, 2002, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: vonK ]</small>

[kvitekrist]

hello.

since i use sodiumclorate i cant melt it together with the sugar.. but i use a press and press the endplugg on, so it's very hard then i use a drill bit to make the hole.

I have found a source for obtainig KNO3.. the fertilizer type, it's very cheap, only 70$ for 100kg

so i can start making real rockets soon... heh

I also have used sodiumclorate\sugar mix in my cannons.. allmost as good as BP..

<small>[ April 23, 2002, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: kvitekrist ]</small>

[Zero]

<img src="http://www.millenianet.com/~firestarter/Z/FERT.JPG" alt="" />

You mean something like this? Yeah, I have three of these now. That's why I'm looking for things to waste KNO3 on.

~Zero the Inestimable

[vulture]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> I also have used sodiumclorate\sugar mix in my cannons.. allmost as good as BP.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Huh? chlorate/sugar normally burns WAY faster than blakpowder.
A 30cm line of BP takes atleast 5s while KClO3/sugar does this in a split second. My experience though...

[Polverone]

If you're trying to determine the goodness of sugar black powder vs. the real thing it's pretty easy to determine that sugar isn't as good, even without tests. Sucrose is about 44% carbon by mass, whereas charcoal is nearly 100%. When sugar is heated it carmelizes - which is endothermic. It gives off steam and reduces to a cruncy mass of carbon, which I would guess is where the bulk of its fuel value is coming from. So, sugar has 44% carbon vs. 100%, and it has to have its bonds broken and water vaporized (both endothermic). It doesn't sound like a winner for quick-burning, energetic fuels. Of course, the real question is "will it reliably burst a CO2 cartridge?" because that's all you need it to do. That can only be answered by tests.

I remember some "science fun" trick from an old book or magazine. It had you try to light a sugar cube on fire with a match (very hard to do), and then rub some cigarette ash on another cube and try lighting it. The cigarette ash would supposedly act as a catalyst so that the second cube could be ignited. I believe that tobacco ashes contain compounds of lithium, potassium, and rubidium, among others, but I do not have a comprehensive analysis available. I wonder if a small amount of similar compounds could improve sugar based fuels. Of course, if you can't even get charcoal, it's unlikely you'll be ordering lithium compounds.

[kingspaz]

why not make charcoal?
i'm sure i've said this many times before....
fill a paint can with wood chippings. put the lid on and put a 5mm hole in the lid. put this on a fire and leave it, it should be left until the smoke levels coming from the hole are reduced significantly, the smoke may catch fire in which case you leave it until the flame shrinks VERY small or goes out - after this remove from the fire and allow to cool but DO NOT open it. the rush of O2 will ignite the charcoal.
few hours later open it up and you have a shit load of high quality charcoal. the wood to use is softwood (pine trees, ash, willow, etc). this contains alot of saps/resins whatever tree juice is called which add to the flamibility of the charcoal.
the isntructions aren't great but you get the idea. basically heat the wood without any oxygen source (air).

[kvitekrist]

my experiece with real blackpowder vs. clorate/sugar is that good blackpowder burns in a flash and the clorate/sugar mixture burns way slower (tried difrent ratioes) and leave that residue... but i have blown thick walled cannons to pieces with the clorate/sugar mix.

I have a great source for charcoal, some shops sell these bags of charcoal for purifying your homemade liquor.. but test with charcoal and sodiumnitrate have been a disappointment.

[Zero]

Not likely, since making your own liquor in any form is illegal here...

I've got some willow charcoal now. I got extremely bored yesterday so I took my bike down to that willow tree, chained a branch to the back, and towed it home. Soon enough: Charcoal. I still need to fix my mill.

I'm still interested in trying the sugar powder, though. Once I get things fixed you can expect to see some results on it.

Eventually.

~Zero the Inestimable

[vulture]

??You're BP is faster than CHLORATE/sugar?? :confused: My potassiumchlorate (pure)/sugar mix burns as fast as flash and i'm not kidding.
I do however add a little charcoal, approx. 5%, to improve mixing.
Are you sure you are using pure and dry chlorate?

Polverone, you forget that sugar also contains hydrogen atoms and water has a rather high enthalpy/weight.

[kvitekrist]

yes it's pure and dry. but it is sodiumclorate... there is a difference.. and it ignites easyer than potassiumclorate.
To bad i dont own a scale, then i could mesure it properly

[James]

Hmm. Just read the <a href="http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/s7394.htm">MSDS</a> for sucrose. OK, I was <a href="http://www.bartleby.com/65/su/sucrose.html">wrong</a> about sugar, I do remember seeing an 11 carbon surgar.
Polverone brought up an intersting idea. Use cigarette ashes instead of ordering from chem supliers. I mean it's not like cigarette ashes are impossible to get. I suppose you could go through and empty ashtrays or something.

<small>[ April 24, 2002, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: James ]</small>

[Anthony]

Cigarrete ash is completely combusted though, whereas the idea of making pyro charcoal is to exclude air(oxygen) to prevent it from combusting.

[James]

I'll try to explain clearly this time. Polverone read a science fun article which seemed to indicate that some compounds in cigarette ash may be catalysts. It was then pointed out that peopl w/o access to charcoal are unlikely to purchase catalysts. My point was that you wouldn't need to go to the chemical suppliers, as cigarette ashes are relatively easy to get. NASA uses catalysts* why shouldn't we.
* "the space shuttle operator's manual" page 7.29

<small>[ April 30, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: James ]</small>

[Zzzzeta]

Chiming in late -

A variation on the 5-cent rocket propellant is to use an additional 15% potassium permanganate. Not only does this result in a more energetic propellant, you get a purple tail on your rockets as well.

The proportions I use are -

63gms potassium nitrate
27gms confectioners' sugar
10gms dusting sulphur
15gms potassium permanganate.

<small>[ May 10, 2002, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Zzzzeta ]</small>

[DarkAngel]

78gr of oxidiser in a 105gr mix sounds like a bit much.

And an extra 15% isn't right your writing it down in grams cause when you add up all the chemicals you end up with 105 which should be 100.

And i doubt that you get a purple tail.

BTW a nice site about KNO3/Suger and some other things: <a href="http://www.jamesyawn.com/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.jamesyawn.com/index.htm</a>

<small>[ May 10, 2002, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: DarkAngel ]</small>

[vulture]

Sorry, but that purple tale is BS. The permanganate will decompose into potassiumoxide and manganese dioxide, which are both colorless.

Anybody ever tried permanganate/sugar? That should be very powerful.
IIRC, it's very friction sensitive.

[Zambosan]

It wouldn't be a purple smoke tail, but the permanganate would give you a light violet flame. However, I think the orange from the potassium would hide it for the most part.

[vulture]

Sorry, but potassium makes an orange flame, sodium a yellow one.
However, the potassium flame is to weak to notice as soon as carbon is present. And the color of a compound is in no way indicative for the flame color!!!!

[Zzzzeta]

Whoops - I made a typo! It's actually 27% sugar, not 17%. The propellant definitely does emit purple sparks, though.

Zzzz

[Polverone]

Eh? Potassium? Orange flames? When I see sugar burning with potassium chlorate it looks purple/pink to me. Potassium nitrate doesn't give as intense of a color; it's more boring pink to me. But certainly not orange. It does depend on what you're using as a fuel and what impurities are present in your chemicals, of course.

[Zzzzeta]

Taking the advice about the potassium permanganate making the propellant too oxidiser-rich, I tried reducing the KNO3 content to 48g, giving the same oxidiser fraction as the original recipe. The propellant appears equally as energetic as before (judging the rocket's performance purely by eye, naturally), but not as effective as ball milled black powder.

Zzzz

[vulture]

Sorry bout that, it should indeed be purple for potassium.
I still think that purple of yours is very strange, because permanganate would decompose at that temperature and it can't be the flame color either.

[Zzzzeta]

I'm not sure what causes the purple sparks either - possibly impurities in the KNO3. It's not a tremendous rich purple flame, more the light violet which was mentioned in a previous post, mixed in with the regular yellow sparks you normally see with a KNO3/sugar propellant. I'll set off a large tube of the mixture on the ground tomorrow night, and try to get a picture with my digicam.

Zzzz

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

Perhaps MnO and Mn3O4 formed from the decomposition of the [MnO4]- ion is affecting the color of the flame?

[A_W]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> I have a great source for charcoal, some shops sell these bags of charcoal for purifying your homemade liquor. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Yes, I have been thinking of theese, as they sell them at supermarkets (in Norway), but this is not wood charcoal, it is activated coal, made from blood, bones or coconutshell. It is very porous and absorbent, but I don`t know if it works in blackpowder.

[vulture]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> A very good source for charcoal are active carbon filters. That can either be air filters or water filters. I just grind the pellets in my coffeegrinder. Then it's airfloat and burns like hell. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">If you had read well.....active carbon :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

<small>[ May 11, 2002, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

[kvitekrist]

the BP made from the purifying coal is the best I have made, it even burns qucker than the BP taken from fireworks.

[Zzzzeta]

I tested a 25mm x 150mm tube filled with 100g of the permanganate-enhanced propellant last night, placed on the ground as a fountain effect. Burn time was 8 seconds, nozzle size was 6mm x about 10mm long. The jet was extremely energetic, reaching about 3m at its peak. Flame colour was a pale purple-violet, but unfortunately the digicam has packed up and I didn't get a shot.

I haven't been game to ballmill this compound, not being sure about the effects of friction on KMnO4-derived powders, so all mixing has been done gently by hand with a wooden mortar and pestle. Although it's an effective rocket propellant, I'm not planning on experimenting much further because of the high cost of KMnO4 over KNO3.

Zzzz

<small>[ May 14, 2002, 04:57 AM: Message edited by: Zzzzeta ]</small>

[FragmentedSanity]

BallMilling permagenate with sugar and sulfer would be a not so good idea.
permagenate and sugar are supposed to be friction sensitive (mind you ive never got it to work, but I didnt try THAT hard :p )

I use a permagenate mix for mini fountains - with S and Al flake and its is definatley a purple flame - with white sparks from the flake. Ive used sugar in these too - but it only slowed them down and produced more slag.

FS

[Zzzzeta]

Yeah, I've heard there can be problems with friction sensitivity, but wasn't sure if that was just a Kewl myth. I've done very little chemistry apart from soil-related stuff in college a few years back - just your basic N/P/K ratios for fertilisers and so forth, and a bit of study on chelates, colloids and other goodies - so I tend to stay on the side of caution when it comes to pyrotechnics.

Zzzz

[Zero]

It's baaaaack...

Since I finally finished some semblance of a working ball mill I was able to mix up a batch of sugar black powder today. Results with the classic 75/15/10 mixture were thoroughly unimpressive, taking well over ten seconds to burn a half dollar sized pile and pearling like crazy. Massive amounts of molten KNO3 were left over.

Tomorrow: Less KNO3, more testing.

~Zero the Inestimable

[endotherm]

Anyone ever try potassium perchlorate/sugar?
Or does any know if it will work, and what are some good proportions for it?

[chem]

I did once I just mixed them half, half it burned very much like KCL03 and sugar. I used all my KCL04 on it at the time and now I cant get any more, without paying extortionate amounts of money. Which has left me permantetaly deppresed and pissed off. But seriously this mix works well and could probably be used in a firecracker, bearing in mind I used to make crackers out of NaCL03 weedkiller and sugar. I spect it would be an excelent rocket propelent. I'm extreemly tired now and probably not making much sense, I'll go sleep now.

[Zzzzeta]

Best proportions I've found for sugar blackpowder are 63:27:10 - you get a much increased burn rate with minimal pearling. You might also try replacing some of the KnO3 with KMnO4, as I was discussing here a few weeks ago.

Zzzz

[xoo1246]

Autoignition....

[Zzzzeta]

&lt;&lt;"Autoignition"&gt;&gt;

Yeah, we were discussing this too, and I've read up on KMn04 since then. The compound is stable at rest, but tends to be somewhat friction sensitive. It's fine as long as you gently handmix small quantities, using wooden implements.

IAN.

[mr.evil]

maybe a little of topic, but i find that Sulferless BP burns very fast! (my KNO3 is very very fine, when you touch it, you can see your fingerprints in it :D Also the C is very fine(ball milled) it burned in a flash, i was suprised <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> as most of the times KNO3 based mixtures are shitty as they burn slow.....

Sorry for going off topic.

[vulture]

70/30 KClO3/sugar works excellent in crackers -&gt; produces a lot of gas H2O + CO2. In my experience better than blackpowder, but hey, if you get different results...

[kanbayat]

SUGAR CLORATE BLASTING POWDER IS AN OLD RECIPE USED IN 19th century quite a bit in europe..I forget the recipe now..but used to use it in pipe years ago

[kanbayat]

ah yes..found the formula for augendre's white powder. t was used to blast very hard rock. I don't know if I would want to mess with it..but here goes.equal parts of kcio3,sugar,al by weight. the very early types of white powder substuted p. ferrocyanide for the al...this was mostened with alchol and ground until very intimate then alowed to dry
I have used the formula with both ferrocyanide and al..the al mix is more [powerful,but also more sensitive
.