Car bomb Crater sizes (Bali nuke?)

[y23]

Re: Car bomb Crater sizes (Bali nuke?)

Assuming everyone has read Joe Vialls interesting articles by now.

Check http://www.joevialls.co.uk/ and search for BALI

He professes to know about SADM and explosives RDX etc.
I found his claims check out, ... strange.

Most of the recent bombs left sizable craters
... they were huge bombs.

Question: Do 300kg of high-explosives *IN A CAR* leave such craters?

Pictures: http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?c=news_photos&p=crater

Want to win The Car Bomb Science Challenge?
http://www.erichufschmid.net/
(please ignore the other crap there)

Greetings from Germany, were 707 AWACS are flying
low over my head as I write. USA has great people!!
..and some of the best are in the military!! |-)

[green beret]

Firstly I am very sceptcal as to the quality of the "joevialls" page. I havent fully examined it but on the section "Baghdad Nuke marks Bali anniversary" he refers to the bali bomb as a "Potassium chloride detergent bomb" need I say anymore?

And as for those pictures on yahoo, take a look at the second one down, firstly, for a car bomb to create a crater of such depth, it (the crater) would have to be wider because of the amount of explosive required, secondly, the amount of explosive required to make such a crater would be alot, so why is there very little colateral damage to things such as the brick wall behind the men? And the scattering of debris just dosent look right to me, too much at the rim of the crater but none really elsewhere, at least not as much as one would expect from such a blast. Also, maybe its just me, but does the crater seem a little too elongated?

Anyhow thats just my view, let know what you all think.

[y23]

Please clarify.

Please re-read your post out loud.

Your post makes no sense to me.

Vialls Potassium was irony. Howard being the Prime Minister of Australia,
and as such not interested in people knowing there was a nuke.

[Blackhawk]

Green Beret's post made perfect sense to me, while yours however didn't, please re-red YOUR post. I am also not sure of the quality of those pictures, an explosive device above the surface would make a wide shallow crater, those ones are too deep, unless some vehicle parts were shot down into the ground and the deep hole was made when the were dug up for examination of something.

[Polverone]

He seems to rely on others to inform him about explosives, and probably ignores advice that conflicts with his theories.

Consider:
No doubt assisted by Sodium Pentathol and probably while hooked up the mains electricity supply, suspect Amrozi originally “confessed” to supplying potassium chlorate, aluminum powder and fuze wire, which could not explode no matter how you mixed it together. Remember here that potassium chlorate crystals are not explosive, and need sophisticated treatment and augmentation to even contribute to a low-explosive blast. Translated to Kuta Beach, Amrozi’s “bomb” would have been no more dangerous than a child’s firework.
A couple hundred kilograms of aluminum powder and KClO3 sounds like a couple hundred kilograms of flash to me, which as any forumite knows is hardly equivalent to "a child's firework."

The only way any explosive can cause a crater is if it is first dropped from an aircraft and penetrates sub-surface before exploding, or if it is physically positioned sub-surface in advance. The thousand-pound Omagh bomb detonated in Northern Ireland by the IRA during 1998 did not cause a crater, nor has any nuclear weapon ever detonated above-ground regardless of TNT equivalence yield.
This needs no comment.

Australian Federal Police Director of Counter Terrorism, Tim Morris, was a little more inventive. Tim claimed the bomb was composed of “chlorate, detonator cord [cordex] and TNT”. Getting better here, Tim, getting better! The TNT would certainly trigger the cordex, or the cordex trigger the TNT, but neither would do anything to the inert potassium chlorate detergent crystals, which must first be blended very carefully with an exact quantity of paraffin wax [fuel] before they can augment anything. Translated to Kuta Beach, Tim’s bomb would have killed a few people from blast alone, while simultaneously bleaching the shirts of hundreds of survivors.
He obviously hasn't a clue about chlorates. Maybe he confuses chlorates with hypochlorites.

There are other errors on his pages, but I think this selection is significant. If there's a real conspiracy buried here somewhere, Joe Vialls has buried it one layer deeper. He doesn't understand simple explosives chemistry, so why should I trust him to get it right when it comes to exotic miniature nuclear weapons?

[thermobaric]

I don't think this was a mini nuke,if u look closer at the case you'd find that the device was a sophisticated 2000-lb thermobaric device.The centralized damage seems consistent with a thermobaric weapon.At his trial,Ali Imron showed a model of the device.http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/11/1044927599789.html

I believe the same type of facts apply to the OKC bombing.Timothy McVeigh's sketch to his lawyer shows a 6500-lb thermobaric bomb,not the 1 ton weapon commonly reported.http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images/mcveighsketch1.jpg

[nbk2000]

Neither ANNM (OKC) nor Chlorate-based flashpowder (Bali) does a thermobaric make.

I've merged your double posts into one, as we don't go for artifically pumping post counts by making seperate posts of single URLs. :rolleyes:

And the letter u is not a substitute for the word you.

[Sausagemit]

I found this really funny....

A tiny nuclear bomb also has the power to do this. A nuclear bomb would have to be underground in order to reduce the intensity of the blast so that it was not too obvious that it was nuclear. Since it would be underground, it would throw a lot of dirt into the air, leaving behind a big crater in the street....

Many of these "enlightened" people are still paying for the New York Times, Popular Mechanics, Scientific American, and other publications that lie to them.

http://www.erichufschmid.net/Conspiracies5.htm

As envisioned by former Los Alamos weapons designer Stephen Younger, the next nuclear weapon will rely on a deep-penetrating delivery system to place a small nuclear charge at the heart of a buried target. Precision delivery makes it possible to use a minimum amount of explosive power. Building low-yield nuclear weapons, however, poses physical as well as legal problems.

"http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1281436.html?page=2"

I would say more like implanting the ideas into there heads!! :D

I would seriously think that a buried small yield nuclear charge would do a lot more damage to the surrounding areas substrate and foundations of the buildings rather than strip the concrete off of the rebar like the Bali bombing. Those weapons are designed to do minimal damage on the surface but maximum damage to any structure underneath the ground.

Two trains crashed into each other in North Korea in April 2004. Supposedly something on the trains exploded, and supposedly this explosion was so powerful that it dug a crater 72 feet deep.

http://www.erichufschmid.net/Conspiracies5.htm

Very explainable, when two trains collide, there is so much force that usually one of the trains ends up going underneath the other and under the ground. I've seen it a lot. All it takes is for one to jump the tracks and either break through the rails or come completely off of the rails.

In fact, a while ago out side of Alliance Nebraska in a single train derailment a locomotive got buried 190 feet under the ground by an UNLOADED coal train. :eek:

All it would take is one of those trains to be carrying a propane car and for the propane car to burst underground and you have your 72 foot deep crater.

I will admit that some of there therories are plausable and may even be true but a lot of them are just way to stupid to be correct.

[thermobaric]

Pictures of the Ryongchon disaster.80 tons of explosive materials would definitely do this kind of damage.http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/ryongchon-imagery.htm
And the specifics of the Bali bomb.http://www.terrorismcentral.com/Library/terroristgroups/JemaahIslamiyah/JITerror/BaliPreps.html

[Raffikki]

That must have been a shit load full of explosives!But still a Small A-bomb would have done much more damage.

[cyclosarin]

The logic behind the vialls site suggests that if any explosive device creates a white mushroom cloud it has to be a nuke.

[zeocrash]

After reading an article such as this does anyone else get the desire to track down the author and beat him into a coma for his authoratative tone, despite his total lack or research or understanding for any of the subject matter.

Being unable to do that i'll the next best thing and debunk, mock and generally dispair at some of the ponts raised in the article (http://www.vialls.com/nuke/bali_micro_nuke.htm). This is mainly as some kind of outlet for my frustration at the man's stupidity.

Ok apart from the points already raised. I have a few of my own to add.

Surely if it was a small nuke then, there would be radiation produced, especially if, as the articles claim, it was burried under ground (the nuke would kick up a shed load of debris, earth, concrete and other crap that would have become radioactive after being in the blast). Now if you have all this radiation and fallout about, surely someone is going to get radiation poisoning.




It is this gamma radiation that a standard Geiger counter detects, warning users that they are entering a hazardous zone. The standard Geiger counter can also detect significant quantities of beta, though this is more difficult.


The new Dimona micro nuke was the very first critical weapon that could be used in “stealth” mode. Gone was the dirty Uranium 238 reflector, and up went the purity of the smaller Plutonium 239 core. You see, Plutonium emits only alpha radiation, which for all practical purposes is “invisible” to a standard Geiger counter. If you do not believe me then ask the American Environmental Protection Agency, whose staff will confirm this.


No, no no, just No. I hate to state the obvious, but this man is about as wrong as you can get. Alpha is certainly not undetectable as the man suggests. As for the geiger counter statement, it's also wrong. Geiger counters detect alpha, beta AND gamma (though not so well).


Remember that this micro nuke was a tiny weapon in terms of critical mass, with its limited number of particles distributed over a very wide area. You will have to be within five feet to detect a single particle, and most may have already washed away.
I... have no words, i really am speachless.

because Plutonium is the most toxic substance known to man
nope


No more, i'm not even a quarter of the way through the article, but i can't take any more. I'm starting to suspect that the owner of the website might secretly be a government agent designed to discredit conspiracy theorists :P.

Part of me wants to make this man suffer in unimaginable ways. Part of me wants to sit him down and explain every single error in his theory in an attempt to educate him.

Finally, just incase the genius of Joe vialls wasn't already obvious. i'll direct you all to his latest breakthrough in the field of oncology and respiratory diseases.
smoking helps protect against lung cancer (http://www.vialls.com/transpositions/smoking.html)