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megalomania
October 7th, 2002, 03:51 PM
Microtek
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posted January 05, 2001 12:35 PM
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Why does it say in all the recipes for AP that you should use it less than 7 days after production? Is it simply because some of it sublimates, or does it lose DV or energy output?


NightStalker
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posted January 05, 2001 02:06 PM
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this is dumb shit....
as long as you store it in a closed jar you can hold it for years...
Storing it in aceton is a good thing for larger amounts and longer times cause it won't evaporate (normally you don't recognise the amount lost by evaporation) and it is not able to detonate while in the liquid... you will loose a bit cause it dissolves in the aceton but once you have a saturated solution you can add and take what you want..
AP won't loose any DV or power by storing it for a longer time...
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Death stalks silently....


CragHack
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posted January 05, 2001 04:22 PM
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This is dumb shit...
yeah, right, that is real dumb shit... AP really does just vanish into thin air. really, it does. storing it for long periods in or out of a solvent is suicidal. just make it when you want to use it. there is no point in storing it for longer than like 2 weeks...

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vehemt
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posted January 05, 2001 10:18 PM
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Ive seen AP left out in the open disappear within a week.


CragHack
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posted January 05, 2001 11:50 PM
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exactly, AP that doesn't disapear quickly is not pure AP. the pure, "lab grade" stuff has a VERY (that is in... VERY VERY VERY VERY) short shelf life. use it when you make it. storing it is not conducive to a long life.
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Microtek
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posted January 06, 2001 09:33 AM
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I have never had any problems with either increased sensitivity or sublimating batches if it was compressed and sealed in a detonator or similar device. I made my first batch around 1992 and have been using it almost weekly ever since. I rarely use very large amounts though; usually 0.01 - 1.0 grams. Regarding the sensitivity, I really don't think it's that dangerous -
I have made a lot of explosive munitions for 4.5 and 5.5 mm pellet guns and, unless you use a small amount of silverfulminate and iron filings in the nose of the pellet, you are not certain of detonation on impact
(120 m/s hardwood target).


NightStalker
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posted January 06, 2001 09:58 AM
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ok so probably what i have is not pure AP... but why? i used 100% pure chemicals mixed with proffesional laboratory equipment washed for at least 3 times...
And i can store it for over 3 months...
I put it in a chemicals bottle with a glas cap that is nearly airtight. in this bottle the stuff is stored with acetone..for using i filtr it out, dry it (takes not mor than a few minutes) and use it..
Its power is great and i never had problems with stability...
So why do you have???
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Death stalks silently....


vehemt
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posted January 06, 2001 12:33 PM
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Have you ever tried leaving any out in the open?


Microtek
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posted January 06, 2001 01:01 PM
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Well isn't that the point then? - If you leave it in the open it sublimates over time but if you keep it enclosed in something airtight it doesn't.
It fits perfectly with what I have experienced. So you might just store it as you would gasoline or nitromethane.
Thanks for the input.


vehemt
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posted January 06, 2001 04:44 PM
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The problem when keeping it in a sealed container is that it will sublimate and form crystals which are highly sensitive.

It only takes one accident to convert the non believer...

[This message has been edited by vehemt (edited January 06, 2001).]


PYRO500
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From: somewhere in florida
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posted January 06, 2001 05:05 PM
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also some crystals may form between the lid and the jar and when you open it BOOM!!!!!!
there is more than one reported case of this happining with lab grade ketones put in long term storage


NightStalker
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posted January 06, 2001 05:49 PM
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I think that this is possible but i have tried it and there were no cristals after 9 weeks....
where should they come from??? The whole ap is covered by acetone, it can't evaporate...
Leaving it out i found that it evaporated, but not too much.... I think it was about 2-7% or so...
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Death stalks silently....


blackadder
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posted January 06, 2001 07:01 PM
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to eliminate the problem of lid opening which causes friction, do what I do, just put cling foil over the top of the jar and hold it there with a rubber band. Does the trick for me. Also helps if you wanna cool the mixture (to make the AP crystals) in the fridge, and you have food in there. No opening the lid and going boom!


CragHack
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posted January 06, 2001 08:41 PM
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damn damn damn damn. are you all stupid fucks? you all seam like you have a brain, you speak as if you can think (no i did not meant to ryme) there is no point in storing AP at all. AP does and always will vaporize and that is a point you can't argue. when it does it forms much more unstable crystals that detonate when touched. all of you are looking to loose a hand. just think guys... there is no reason to store it and storing it is a health hazard. SO WHY DO IT!!!!
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SofaKing
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From: YEAH RIGHT !!
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posted January 06, 2001 11:18 PM
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I dreamt I had TCAP stored in a shallow cup (so no crystals on the side) for over a month and it was fine after ward, with very little sublimed.
CragHack you need to calm down, TCAP can and has been stored safely. Also if stored underwater it's quite safe.

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"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug


CragHack
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posted January 07, 2001 12:11 AM
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no, it can't, it is stupid even to try.
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SafetyLast
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posted January 07, 2001 01:56 AM
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why does everybody always say "I dreamt I.."
I say make AP as you need it.
If you don't plan on using it a week after it's made why make it?
Its not like the country is going to be taken over by aliens and you need your AP right that instant to save the world.
don't just make it for the hell of it and keep it under water for a month that is just more evidence for the FBI to find when they tear your room apart because somebody got suspicious because you were buying lots of chemicals from the pharmacy or if by any means you got in trouble with the law.


Microtek
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posted January 07, 2001 06:20 AM
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So CragHack you are pretty emphatic about not storing it, but why exactly is that? Have you had any incidents with it, or witnessed some maybe? I'm looking for firsthand experience. Others are welcome also; have any of you had AP explode because of unstable crystals formed from vapour?


Edd
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posted January 07, 2001 12:12 PM
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I think="../images/email.gif" BORDER=0 ALT="Click Here to Email Edd">
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i once left a pot of the stuff (with a lid) on a shelf, in quite a warm room. it was there about a week. when i came to open it, there was condensation on the edges of the pot and a few crystals among it. i was absolutely shitting myself when i opened it, but nothing untoward happened.


CragHack
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posted January 07, 2001 12:20 PM
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ding ding ding ding!!!! thank you Edd. no i have not had any incidents with it. my dreams do not last that long, and they are not that detailed. i do not have incidents with it because i do not put myself in a position to have incidents with it (don't mean to sound snotty on that one) but apparently edd has, and that should be all the reason not to store it. i know you would like some concrete evidence, that i can not provide because i have never stored AP, knowing that this will happen. i have both read AND heard storys of AP "disapearing", so i just assumed this was so. if you still do not believe me, drop Megalomania an email and he will corroberate my story.
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Microtek
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posted January 07, 2001 02:29 PM
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I do not doubt that AP sublimates and recrystalizes; I have experimented with that myself, but why are everybody so certain that these crystals are so much more sensitive than it was to begin with ?
I'm not saying that it isn't so, but so far, I have only heard what people have heard second or third hand.
Maybe someone with the proper facilities could make some tests and establish it.
Anyway, if the AP is compressed into an airtight container with no spaces inside, I really cannot imagine how it would recrystalize.


Anthony
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posted January 07, 2001 03:10 PM
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I think Craghack needs to calm down a bit...
The reason to store AP is so that you have it to hand when you suddenly get a great idea etc. The other option is to throw away what you didn't use of the batch which is wasteful.

Why would re-crystalised AP be super-sensitive? it's just AP, there's nothing it could have reacted with to form a different compound.

It can be stored safely you just need to be sensible.

Thinking about it, silver fulminate is stupidly sensitive yet it gets stored commercially for many years as kid's toys.


SofaKing
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From: YEAH RIGHT !!
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posted January 07, 2001 03:38 PM
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We have somthing in comon, because I do not put myself in a position to have incidents with it either ! Storing it uncovered (like I dremt) or underwater is SAFE. The small amount that does sublimate is not a hazard seeing how it does not collect. Having an unessecary fear of TCAP will only increase you chance of accident, while a healthy respect will be beneficial.
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"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug


vehemt
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posted January 07, 2001 05:01 PM
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"Having an unessecary fear of TCAP will only increase you chance of accident, while a healthy respect will be beneficial."
That is absolutely stupid.

I know for a fact that if someone with a good deal of explosives experience, whether military or laboratory, whatever, if they saw this forum they would be shitting themselves as to how EXTREMELY DANGEROUS AND RECKLESS DEALING WITH PEROXIDES IS. Just because you've minimized the danger does not mean it does not exist. Also nobody has provided a REAL answer as to why to store it. Peroxides can be made in such a small period of time that storing has no BENEFIT, only the inherit danger always associated with dealing with a home made explosive, a peroxide at that.

No home made high explosives should ever be stored, no matter what the hell it is.


PYRO500
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From: somewhere in florida
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posted January 07, 2001 05:22 PM
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sure, vehemt, I have to agree with you there, point is that some people might not heede your advice ( i dont think it is a good idea to store ap) so it I was going to recomend storing it I would recomend storing it in a teflon containder (solid nylon works) nothing sticks to it, also just in case I would recomend putting that inside a glass container and covering the inner container filled with water(no air bubbles) with saran wrap and weighting it with some kind of weights (on the outside) and put it in the glass jar filled with water to the brim and have that in a safe place. if a bubble forms in the ap container you know there is some gas forming and it is time to redo the procedure, it may take be time consuming but it is well worth your life


Cricket
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posted January 07, 2001 05:55 PM
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Exactly. I would rather make a batch and use half of it and waist the rest than store the unused half, it and greatly increase the chance of an accident. Besides, it is very cheap, easy and fast to make, sensitive, and dangerous. Shit, look at that dudes counter (Anthony I think), and he just made the stuff.


PYRO500
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From: somewhere in florida
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posted January 07, 2001 10:10 PM
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true enough about the ap not mixing with any other compunds, but the thing about recrystilization in air is that the molecules in AP form ionic bonds with eachother (as I understand it) witch usualy results in a thin crystal sheets instead of nice loose ap crystals, now you are thinking "so what of it forms crystals form in tiny(or large) sheets" well when you snap the delicate sheet the ionic bonds break and release energy! now AP is sensitive enough with loose bonds to make things worse so that energy allows the ap to decompose and explode!! does that mean anything to you?


Edd
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posted January 07, 2001 10:40 PM
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sure. it means "KA-FUCKING-BOOOOOM! AH! I'M BLIND! AH! I'M DEAF! AH! MY HANDS ARE GONE!"


PYRO500
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From: somewhere in florida
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posted January 07, 2001 11:37 PM
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yep that's what it means


Microtek
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posted January 08, 2001 05:23 AM
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Is this still just theorizing ? It all sounds very plausible but as we all know, experiment overrules theory.
I have used AP for the last 8 years, I make about 5-10 grams at a time using good quality chemicals. I only use small amounts in my devices (0.005-2.0 grams) so I usually have a lot of surplus which I store in a polyethylene jar with lid. I have never had any problems with the crystals that form on the inside.
I suggest you all try this out:
Using a small amount, say one gram or whatever you think is safe, place your AP in a transparent, airtight container so you can see when some of it begins to recrystalize.
Then test the sensitivity of these crystals directly.


Edd
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From: england
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posted January 08, 2001 09:22 AM
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i think the problem with that, is that most of using making/using AP don't have brilliant equipment. that's why we use it it's amazingly simple to make. the method someone i know uses is "but 'some' peroxide in a vat. put in 'some' acetone. add a 'bit' of Hcl" and he still gets good yields. if we had useful/complex lab gear we'd all be busy synthesisng RDX and such.
[This message has been edited by Edd (edited January 08, 2001).]


Arthis
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posted January 21, 2001 11:38 AM
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Whoaa, I've been out this forum for a long time... Many news since !
Just to quote an example, I have kept AP on my desk (about 300-400 g) for now 3-4 monthes, and I can say that a little AP left, but there is still much of it. I don't use special glassware to make it, just ice cubes and jam pots. And neither it exploded neither it vaporized.

And AP tends to form unstable compound when stored in a closed pot, but it is NOT unstable enough to explode just when you open it...


Anthony
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From: England
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posted January 21, 2001 12:04 PM
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It is if it gets into the threads of a container!


Mick
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posted January 21, 2001 12:37 PM
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Anthony said:

Why would re-crystalised AP be super-sensitive?
why do you distill stuff? so i takes out the impurities..

when AP evapourates, and then condensences(sp?), you have the same effect as distilling it(almost the same anyway).
thus, the AP is more sensitive.
and it will always condensence where there is an air leak

so, if you have something covering the top of your jar - IE. a piece of glass,
and there is a small gap between the piece of glass and the top of the jar - you may not be able to see it, but if its there, air will get in, and when it does, AP will condence around the hole, joining the piece of glass, to the top of the jar, and when you remove the piece of glass from the jar, the crystals break, and the whole bottle goes boom.

i have first hand experience of this happening

when i used to store AP, i would wear a pair of butchers "chainmail" gloves, and then a pair of welding gloves over the top of that whenever i went to pick up a jar that more then a day old
because i had a fair idea of the dangers involved in storing

oneday, i wasn't quite so lucky, and when i moved my jar of AP, the piece of glass on top moved slightly, and set the whole jar off, which completly shredded the welding glove on my hand, and tiny little bits of glass stuck into the chainmail glove, and came thru far enough to put little puncher holes all over my hand.
thank fully i reached around the coner to grab hold of the jar, or other wise, i prolly wouldn't have mnuch of a face left(if any at all)

so as far storing AP goes, NO NO NO!!
it is stupid. very stupid.

if you have leftover AP, use it for something simple
like putting between coins and throwing it..

or, grow a brain, and work out some ratios for mixxing, so you get how much you want each time.
rather then mix a batch big enough to fill 15 matchboxxes, when you only need to fill 1.

i don't care what other people say about storing AP..or any other explosive
they may get away with storing AP for 10 years, and it still be fine.
but one day it won't.

It only takes one accident to convert the non believer...
very true vehemt.


Mr Cool
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posted January 21, 2001 12:48 PM
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Why is the peroxides section always full of arguments?
If you want to store it, then do, but be prepared for anything that might happen as a result. If you don't think it's worth the risk, don't store it.
I never store AP, but I do store small amounts of HMTD. I have a sample of HMTD that I'm testing, and it'll be 2 years, 1 month old in February. I'll test a bit for power and sensitivity to see what's happened to it, if anything.
If you're going to store AP, I'd suggest dissolving it in acetone at 0 *C or colder, and storing it in the freezer.


the freshmaker
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From: Heaven
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posted January 23, 2001 02:58 PM
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Here's a litle bedtime story.
Once upon a time there were a chemical student from my country, who had stored 4gr AP in a litle glass jar with a lid.
One day he took of the lid and then.......

BOOOOOOM!

The whole shit exploded so he blew of his hand and some of his leg...!

Just a reminder; lost bodypartz don't come back again!!!!


Mr Cool
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From: None of your bloody business!
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posted January 24, 2001 03:25 PM
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...but they do still itch, which would be extemely annoying because you couldn't scratch it! (not speaking from personal experience! It's a well-known medical fact)