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CLAPHAM
December 10th, 2003, 09:20 PM
Does anyone here know of a good poison to use with a blowgun? My house is surronded with little red squirrels and they drive you crazy when your hunting. Sometimes i'll take a couple out with my 22 but its more fun with the blow gun, they just don't die fast enough. I live in Michigan so there aren't any poisonous animals (that i know of). I was thinking of a plant extract like from the seeds of the Strophanthus speciosus. The seeds were used by the Native Americans as a dart poison. I just don't know how to extract the poison from the seeds. Any help would be appreciated.

Zeitgeist
December 11th, 2003, 02:26 AM
I don't know what plant that is, but is the toxic property an Alkaloid?

Your standard polar/non-polar acid/base extraction should work

If you aren't familiar with this, i'll find some more details of the alkaloid extraction process

Jacks Complete
December 11th, 2003, 07:40 AM
The South Americans used the "Poison Arrow Frog", not seeds.

It must have been really easy... Looking through the guidebook for something to poison arrows with, and there it was...

PHAID
December 11th, 2003, 08:56 AM
Nicotine would be a good choice, its easy to make and will stop their heart.

Mr Cool
December 11th, 2003, 09:35 AM
Concentrated Monkshood sap. Contains (pseudo)aconitine, oral LD50 ~2mg/kg, dried plants can be a few % alkaloid (w/w), and it can be found at garden centres everywhere.

kurama guineu
December 12th, 2003, 12:19 AM
clapham, check this out.

http://www.roguesci.org/archive/299_6-27.html

CLAPHAM
December 13th, 2003, 12:26 PM
In that thread they were talking about an injecting apparatus which really wouldn't work considering the weight of a dart like that. They were also talking about a tranquilizer and it would take a lot more to kill something (although it would probably be enough to kill squirrels). I was talking about just dipping the tip of a dart in a something. The poison of a dart frog (which is really alcaloids they get from the plants they eat) only takes 136 micrograms to kill a 150 pound animal so i was thinking i could just extract the alcaloids from a plant. Oh and not all Native Americans lived where there were poison dart frogs (such as michigan). I am going to try the Nicotine and Monkshood sap and i'll report back with my results.

Magas
December 23rd, 2003, 07:53 AM
Why not try dried snake venom. I presume america has rattlesnakes in most parts. They are easy to milk and then concentrate the venom. You should have fierce snakes like here in OZ or just a taipan or two now thats poison.

Aaron-V2.0
December 23rd, 2003, 08:52 PM
Now while it's nice to find plants and extract poisons for this task what about getting a container of Red Devil Lye, dipping the tips of the darts with white glue and giving them a coat of Lye? It'd get an immediate reaction from the rats and I'm pretty sure for their size it'd prove fatal.

CLAPHAM
December 29th, 2003, 02:24 PM
I tried the nicotine and Monkshood sap. The nicotine didn't do anything but i might have been doing something wrong and the Monkshood sap (which was really hard to find) took about 5 hours to kill the squirrels. And holey crap one of them was making this weird high pitch squeeling, it was rechid. Magas, the only snake i know of in michigan that is poisonous is the water moccasin and i really have never seen one. I will try the Lye thing and if that doesn't work i will buy a couple of books.

Barcy
December 31st, 2003, 07:08 AM
Different countrys, different poisons.
Try your government websites for poisonous and dangerous plants. Most people are aware of ricin and other toxins. But until I looked at the noxious/poisonous plants website kindly provided to all citizens that I realised that there was more poisonous plants around than first realised. I was amazed to find the castor plants grow everywhere near where I live. Also being in Australia and not wanting to play with deadly reptiles, I have found the common cane toad to be a good source of poison. I am sure if you look, you will find a poison information site that relates to your home enironment. However they may only explain the toxicity, symptoms and first aid measures, not the speed of the action. Most poisons do not fast acting.

Barcy
January 2nd, 2004, 07:11 AM
Back again after a full days fishing and was thinking about the number of poisonous fish and marine life around. Locally we have a variant of the blowfish. The same one that can be carefully/professionally prepared and eaten to provide a nice little high as part of Japanese Sushimi. But as is often the case when it is not prepared properly, you have paralysis and death. Imagine what this would do in the bloodstream of a small rodent or larger pest when delivered by a dart or another source. So another source for powerful poisons, would be to see if you can get a list of local marine poisons from government websites and diveshops medical or marine dangers type booklets (something I forgot I still had from my diving days).
Still be warned that most these types of booklets tend to exagerate the power of the poisons, I have been spiked by a type of catfish (tandanus tandanus) so many times it is not funning (I do mean not funny, it hurts). But it is listed as a poisonous fish beside species such as stone fish, which will not just kill you, but sent you to your grave screaming in pain..(real nasty stuff).....hhhmmm Know any one you really want to hurt?

tom haggen
January 2nd, 2004, 03:18 PM
take the seed from that plant that you think is so toxic. grind them up, and soak them in some naptha. filter the seeds out through them away. let the naptha evaporate. any tar like substance left over should be posion. don't poke your self!!!

Arbalest
January 4th, 2004, 08:23 PM
If your blowgun darts don't kill the squirrels fast, there's something wrong in either your blowgun, the darts or your technique. Hundreds of squirrels are killed fast with 'guns each year without any poison. It shouldn't take more than 1 -10 seconds after a solid hit to the heart-lung area. The Cherokee and Choctaw killed squirrels, birds and rabbits for centuries with blowguns without any poisons.

My hunting blowguns are from 60 to 80" long. You need the length to propel the dart with enough KE. The caliber is .628", anything smaller or larger is less powerful. The most important factor are the darts. Most of the darts sold by commercial manufacturers are really inadequate for something as tough as squirrels. It takes a razor sharp broadhead (X-acto blades work well) and a dart mass of 40 to 70 grains to bring down game efficiently. I've lost my share of hit squirrels before finding this out. A long dart, 14 to 18", is helpful here, since it effecively prevents the animal from diving into cover or hide even after a less-than-optimal hit.

Now if one really wants to experiment with dart poisons, a plant called water hemlock ( Cicuta spp) is a really common plant that grows throughout Europe, Asia and North - America (probably elsewhere too). The root of water hemlock contains cicutoxin, a highly poisonous substance to mammals. The natives of the Kamtchatka Peninsula made their arrow poison by crushing Cicuta roots and boiling down the oozing juices to a thick gum. It is supposed to work only when fresh.

DimmuJesus
January 7th, 2004, 09:40 AM
There are a couple of books that may help you. I think one of which talks specifically about poison darts. They are all about poisons and as far as I know, pretty credible. I myself have not tried any of the "recipies" contained in these texts, if you do and something works, let me know! But here they are:
Silent Death by Uncle Fester
The Poisoner's Handbook by Maxwell Hutchkinson
I purchased both online from Amazon.com, but I'm sure there are plenty of other places as well.

ShadowAlchemist
January 10th, 2004, 02:55 AM
Barcy, The Japenese Fugu (Fugu rubripes) puffer fish contains an EXTREMELY potent sodium channel blocker called tetrodoxin. This shit is fucking lethal, even in microscopic amounts.
1-2mg can easily kill a fully grown adult. In one of my books, they reckon tetrodoxin is 1200 times deadlier than cyanide. If you can disect the fish without spiken yourself :) the tetrodoxin is present in the skin tissue, muscle, ovaries and the liver.
Only symptons are instant muscle paralysis and death by respiratory failure...Nasty!
Clapham, upon receiving a tip from a friend, I did some research on a plant that grows in South America and was used by the amazonian indians...To coat dart tips of course ;)
Tubocurarine is the active ingredient of Curare, which is an extract of Chondodendron tomentosum (a vine which grows in S.America, but I've been told you can order plant material over the net). The bark and stems is what contains curare and it is in the form of a black 'gummy' paste. Tubocurarine is classed as a Non-Depolarizing Paralyzing Agent, and it works by blocking certain receptors at muscular junctions, which in turn causes fast muscle paralysis which includes the heart and respitory organs. In other words, it is meant to be one of the better dart poisons (according to the Amazonian Indians & my mate) ;) Mate has ordered some in past but can't remember where. I tried google for ya, but no hits. Good Luck

Barcy
January 10th, 2004, 06:28 PM
Thanks shadowalchemist. These fish usual just get bashed against the side of the boat until I get my hook back or I just cut the line. But with the data you have provided, I may keep the next one and experiment with. I am thinking of combining a low velocity .22 hollowpoint (do not want to kill the animal outright) and the next large feral pig I come across while hunting (may be a few months before the wet weather settles and allows me to go out and look). I will let you know the results.

manowar
January 13th, 2004, 11:51 PM
use poison hemlock. it grows in alot of places. it has a deadly alkaloid called coniine which depresses the nervous system rather painlessly. they used it on soccrates execution.

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Rhadon

Barcy
May 17th, 2004, 07:58 PM
Finally got to test my special hollow point. I was obviously wrong with the exact species, however there are so many sub species that are all poisonous. I collected a number of small toad fish, as the larger species are not biting now that I want them. I used the skin and livers, which a ground down to a paste and washed and filtered with alcohol (all guess work here). The remaining small amount of product did not filter to well as it seemed to gell. I eventually just opted to put the gell from the filter into a couple of hollow points sub sonic .22.

I managed to find a large black sow (100kg mark) and put two shots into her rump.

No instant results, but after about half a kilometre track, she lied down and within about 20 minutes was dead. So although it can kill, I would not recommend this poison for fast results, as the animal was stressed and wounded for the poison to kill in about a 25minute period. I imagine a smaller animal would drop very quickly, but a .22 would simple kill a smaller animal.

Although I love hunting, I prefer a quick kill and did not like the results, even on a feral animal. I would only use such a poison in a desperate situation.

nbk2000
May 17th, 2004, 08:06 PM
I know of plenty of feral pigs that could use some poison shot into their rumps. :p

Lawrence
May 20th, 2004, 07:49 PM
Don't know if any of you have heard of it, but there was a book around a few years ago called Deadly substances,It perported to contain the sources of many natural poisons available from nature,I have been unable to track down a copy but it is listed in your Library of Congress catalogue if anyone has the opportunity to go and look for it.