Best Aluminum for Flash?

[CyclonitePyro]

-Aluminum - atomized, 2 micron APS
-Aluminum - German Black, Flash Blend (2 micron AFA)
-Aluminum - German Black, ground flake (2 micron)
-Aluminum - German black, flake - 5413H Super

These four are from firefox, I'm wondering which would be the best for flash, if there is much of a difference. I don't think the atomized would be any good though. I'm wondering if anyone here has used any of these, maybe someone who has a pyrotechnics job.
They are freaking expensive though, and if there isn't much of a difference between these and reg. 400 mesh then why should I even bother.

[Wicked]

I dont really think in flash powder it would make any diffrence. Since all your wanting is a flash, and not a bang, it doesnt apear to me as to make a diffrence. But, I may be wrong. Have you tryed experimenting? :p

[CyclonitePyro]

Flash not used to make a boom!? :confused:
What else? Well, maybe theatrical flash. But 99% of flash used in the world is for making booms and I want good booms for happy customers, I don't want to sell AP putty salutes.
I should have been more specific, and I emailed firefox, we'll see what they have to say. I'd still like to here from you though.

[Wicked]

It would only make a diffrence in large ammounts, I think. And I figured you were looking for the largest flash, Asin temporaraly blindness. Anywaysss, I'd just get a shotgun shell or two. :) You might wanna talk to someone else though, it's just an opinion/educated guess. :) ttys.

[krimmie]

The German Black ground flake 2 micron would be my choice out of those choices. I wouldn't even dream on mixing this Al with KCLO4 in a 3:7 ratio...but if I did, I'd consider this product from Skylighter:
CH0144

(109)

Aluminum, flake, dark, Indian Blackhead

8 micron, coated

A much darker aluminum than German Blackhead. Reputedly made with the same process and equipment used to make Blackhead in Germany in the 1950's. Performance compares very favorably. Limit of one pound of dark aluminum per order, two pounds per year unless you send us a copy of your current BATF High Explosives Manufacturing license (type 20).

USA Shipments Only, Cannot Be Exported
lb. $20.95

I can't(nor can my neighbors) tell the differnce between the German and the Indian. I have dreamed that they both react quite well together. You could use the -400 mesh Al, but you get what you pay for as far as Al is concerned.

You also might want to check with e-bay....I bought 1 lb. of the Indian Blackhead last month through their auctions and was VERY pleased with the product.

I just checked out e-bay and found the following items; cut and paste the url's.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1725216167http://cgi.ebay.com/" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1725216167http://cgi.ebay.com/</a>

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1726914026ws/eBayISAPI.dll?" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1726914026ws/eBayISAPI.dll?</a>

<small>[ May 02, 2002, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: krimmie ]</small>

[CyclonitePyro]

The KCLO4 auction looked good until I spotted the $11.00 shipping :mad: , preset shipping prices shouldn't be allowed.

What does AFA stand for?

[J]

I'd go for the German Black Flake. It probably doesn't matter what you get out of that list, they'll all work brilliantly. Whatever you do, don't buy spherical, since it won't work in most flash comps.

[Arkangel]

I recently got a couple of kilos of Al powder from a GRP supply company, not so much for flash, but for mixing a small amount in with BP rocket propellant. It's a fine grey powder, almost as fine as flour. It doesn't seem very enthusiastic though, and I'd assumed from the light grey colour that was because a large proportion of it was oxidised.

You mention the spherical Al J, is this a possible reason for my stuff being hard to burn? As I mentioned, the powder is really quite fine. If it's structure is the issue, might sticking it in a coffee grinder for a few minutes be helpful in changing it's structure, or just a red herring?

[0EZ0]

Well if you had the chance of getting cheap spherical Al powder, then I would buy it. Stick it in a ball mill for a bit and end up with something resembling flake Al.

Edit: Of course it would not be the same As German Dark, but good for flash?

<small>[ May 03, 2002, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]</small>

[J]

Assuming it's for mixing with resin, that Al is spherical and around 300 mesh. This is the reason it's no good for flash, apart from certain comps (see my website). Grinding it in the blender won't produce flake, unless perhaps you grind it for a few weeks. I've heard of people milling it with Steel balls to flatten the particles, but I haven't tried that.

[CyclonitePyro]

Ok, firefox emailed me this:

Listed according to combustion rate:
C104, C104/HS, C103GBB, German dark 400m (C104/HS & C103GBB about the same rate)
C104, made in India (German process)
C104/HS made in Germany
C103GBB is blended by Firefox using C104 and other flake aluminum.

So here is what firefox meant:
So that means: (listed in order best to worst)
#1 Aluminum - German Black, ground flake (2 micron) HOT!! - Stock #C104 - FS
#2 Aluminum - German black, flake - 5413H Super - Stock #C104/HS - FS
#3Aluminum - German Black, Flash Blend (2 micron AFA) - Stock #C103GBB - FS
#4Aluminum - German dark, flake -400 mesh (12 micron AFA) - Stock #C103GD - FS
(#'s 2 and 3 are are about the same)

So I'm gonna get me some German Black, ground flake (2 micron)aluminum, and use a 30/70 ratio with KClO4, which I'll buy and ball mill myself.
Case solved. :)

[inferno]

Uhhh, youre gonna ball bill KClO4 and Al? Sure, if you dont mind losing a hand...or your eyes or face...

[Anthony]

I think he means milling the KClO4 :)

[EventHorizon]

I got some 3 micron stuff from Skyligher and it works GREAT with KClO₄. Tho I can't complain about the 4 micron cheapo stuff I got either. Only a 'little' difference in the report.

[MacCleod]

CyclonitePyro,'AFA' stands for 'as fine as'.

[CyclonitePyro]

Thanks MacCleod, I geuss when that is behind a brand, it means some of the particles are as fine as (X size).

[krimmie]

A reason I suggested an auction for Al, over an internet company like Skylighter, is that you are not required to provide a signed agreement along with a copy of your drivers license. This is no big deal for me...but might be for some! I haven't ordered from any pyro company except Skylighter, but I do know Skylighter demands an order of at least $30.00. This is not convenient when(for example) I only need 1 lb. of Ba(NO3)2.

[MacCleod]

It's been a while since i've ordered from Pyrotek,can't remember if they required an i.d. or not.But I do believe they didn't have qty. restrictions on things like alum. and mag. powder.They're one of the more expensive companies,though.

[mark]

What would be a better aluminum for flash, 425 mesh flake or american dark? Thanks

[CyclonitePyro]

The American dark is 13 microns,(at least at firefox), and that is much smaller than 425 mesh, so the American dark is far superior due to its smaller particle size.

[mark]

But I am purchasing from pyrotek and they charge more for the flake. Should I still get the American?

[MacCleod]

I'd say the american dark would be your best bet,for the money.There's no particle size listed for it (at pyrotek),but it is listed as 'dark pyro aluminum' in the hot chem. specials section;it might not be a bad idea to try to contact them and find out what it is before ordering (It's hard as hell to get someone to answer the phone there!).
I've used both the 425 m. bright and german dark,and the dark works best.I've seen salutes made with the bright stuff that burst open,leaving behind unburned flash,but I have yet to see this happen with the dark powders.

[vulture]

How many mesh would airfloat Al be? If I only open my bag with Al a fine cloud disperses and 24 hours later everything is covered with Al powder.

[endotherm]

When using black aluminums, does anyone know what kind of a difference 8 micron/3 micron aluminum would make with a standard perchlorate flash?

[kanbayat]

I've tried all the diff al powders over a 25 year period. I generally by the bright flake for flash. cause it is less expensive. the dark al powders are genraly less messy than brights though. As far as report,it depends on the formulas you use. I have gotten reports just as loud with 325 bright as I have with 3 micron..simply by modifieng the formula a little.stadard 70/30 works well for all..however 66/33 works well for the larger mesh sizes. I used to buy 100 mesh paint grade al years ago. It looked dull grey and was almost impossible to light with a fuse or match..but it gave a nice thump when confined in a triangle type cracker(course matchheads will work in those)with perclorate ,sulpher or just perclorate. It's a matter of tastes when it comes to the type of al you get. but flake is the best in my opion as long as it as 100 mesh at least

[tom haggen]

Does anyone have any incite on aluminum maufacturing? I've done my fair share of reading on this site now. I haven't seen what series of aluminum your high quality pryophoric flash powders originate from. I suppose that material numbering systems vary from country to country. Here in america our aircraft aluminum is labeled as a 7000 series, and some heavier types are the 6000 series. I have expiremented with the 6000 series, my result for making flash powder from this type sucked cock. The best results so far have came from a bar of aluminum that was connected to a magnesium strip called a fire starter (for camping). Aluminum powder from aluminum foil seems to be promising but that easy aluminum thread sucks. I'm convinced a tumbler would be the way to go. Also could someone point me in the right direction toward a thread that might information on binding your flash powder together. I'm still kind of in the dark on that subject.

-tom

[b2sai]

If i use like very very small amounts of chemicals for flash, would i be able to get some reactions thats relatively safe for the classroom when i do the experiment?

[scarletmanuka]

Tom - Don't knock the Al-foil method unless you have tried it. And with the firestarter, it is infact a bar of magnesium attached to a strip of flint. That is why it works so well, because you are using pure magnesium.

b2sai- a quarter of a gram electronically ignited unconfined would be relatively safe and impressive. But I would forget about it myself. It always pays to ensure that you don't attract unwarranted attention at school. The chem teacher realises you play around with pyro, and the next time something goes missing from the lab, your ass is at the principal's office.

[Mumble]

I have done the mill method several times and I am very happy with the results. Don't go bad mouthing the Blender method though. It offers a way to get Al with seems to be on par with mine, if not better due to the lack of oxidation. Not only on par, but in an hour or so, compared to the weeks it takes for the ball mill.

Scarletmanuka - Even if you do get sent to the principal's office doesn't mean they can do anything. They might ask you if you took it, but unless they find it or have video of you taking it they really wont be able to do anything. Besides you get out of about an hour of class. It's been my experience that those who do enjoy the fine art of pyro(aka me) steals far less(nothing) than others. A good portion of the school equiptment is currently being used for bongs and shot glasses at parties. I've witnessed both of these.

Tom - why would you want to bind your flash? One of the reasons it burns so fast is that is is fairly fluffy and has plenty of air between particles. This allows for a much faster flame propogation. If you must bind there are plenty of binders to choose from. I might try dextrin or Red gum.

[tom haggen]

well the flash i keep making, keeps leaving behind a black clump of oxidizer that doesn't seem to decompose. I guess i'm just curious if binding would help.

[Bert]

tom haggen-

Flash Al should be PURE Al. 6000 & 7000 series ALLOYS contain varying amounts of Al, Mg, Si, Zinc, Copper and Chrome. The purpose of these additives is to make the metal harder and more durable- Which translates to more difficult to make into a fine metal powder. Al foil is quite pure Al. It needs to be to be easily rolled so thin. The guys trying to make pyro grade Al powder from commercial foils are on the right track, materials wise at least.

If you want an Al/Mg alloy, try 50% Al : 50% Mg cast into a chilled Iron mould. This is quite brittle and easily milled to a fine powder.

If your flash is leaving behind clumps of unburned stuff, it's probably because the mix isn't in the correct ratios or you're using too big particle size. Binding flash won't make it burn faster, adding fluffing agents such as Cab-o-sil makes it burn faster. You may also be using an alloy for your Aluminum that has a bunch of crap that just won't burn, it sounds like.

[b2sai]

Where do you guys let the flash ignite ? outdoors or indoors?
Is it possible to get caught for igniting flashes outdoors even if your in isolated areas??

When you igninte 10 grams of flashpowder...
...Approximately how many decibell is the sound ?
...Does it increase proportionaly when you increase the mass?
...Will the floor tile burn if i ignite the flash?

[Mumble]

Outdoors without a doubt. Its never a good idea to intentionally ignite pyrotechnic compositions indoors. If you have an extremely large area, say a sports arena it would be acceptable as the reaction gases would disapate.

Yes, its possible to get caught igniting flashes. Its possible to get caught doing anything; drinking, thinking, doing your homework, jerking it in the bathroom. Its really only a matter of legallity. With good flash there will be no evidence unless someone video taped it. If you ignite the flash on a tile, the tile should be virtually unscathed. I can light mine on a piece of paper and it leave the paper completely untouched for the most part.

[b2sai]

Oki.. so i have to find a secret place to ignite the flashes.. hehe...

Is it safe to ignite the flash powder in a piece of paper, attach a fuse on it and place it in a open metal container to ignite? Instead of buying a flashpot w/c gona cost me $50.. :(

Man, i never realy imagined its hard to get Al powder in small amounts. I saw at ebay they sell 1lbs of German Al and cost $20... My school doesnt have any Al powder. I have to choose whether to buy Al, look for a safe substitute chemical or buy a ready made flash powder. the latter is expensive though..

Mumble- Is the mill method that u use done by a big machine to make Al powder?

[tom haggen]

Dude b2sai don't be a pussy. Who gives a fuck about ingniting flash. Bert I would be supprised to learn that 7000 series air plane aluminum would contain zinc. I think your on to something though, I got my bar of 6000 series aluminum from a machine shop. Now that I think about it, People probably to do add some type of flame retardent additive to mechanical and structual aluminums to prevent serious fires in machine shops. Guess I will have to keep looking for a source of pure aluminum. I'm just not into that whole buying AL powder with out a expolsives license.

[Tended Tripod]

I've used two different types of aluminum in flash, which I mix with the standard 7/3 ratio of Perc and Al. The first one was 425 mesh Al from pyrotek, which burned rather nicely but sends off alot of sparks and couldn't achieve an instantaneous burn even in small amounts spread out onto a piece of paper.

The second type of Al I've tried is german dark 600 mesh that I ordered off of ebay for $16 plus $4 shipping. It burns very quickly, and with almost no sparks. It burns instantaneously in the the same amount that I tested with above. I'm not sure of the exact weight that I tested but it's about 2 tablespoons worth.

Ebay tips: Just do a search for the exact phrase of "aluminum powder" every day for about a week. I check every so often now to see if I can get a good deal, as I still need another pound of Al to balance out my 5 lbs of Perc :D. It's not very easy to get good aluminum for under $15, but it's certainly possible to find someone that's offering cheap shipping.

tom haggen: I've noticed that you seem to enjoy using swear words quite often in your posts. I know this isn't against any rules, but I've always thought that swear words are much more useful and dramatic if you use them less, and in more appropriate situations. Ie: Stubbing your toe or dropping half of your recently mixed flash powder on carpeting (Alum. makes horrible stains!). The nice thing about the internet is that you can restrain yourself from saying things on accident via backspace key.

Another thing: Do you remember when you first got into flash? I'm hoping you were at least a little more paranoid about it than you are now. I live in a rather desolate area, but I'm still rather afraid of setting off any flash charges, as neighbors can do whatever they feel like, and that might just be calling the cops to report a "louder than a gunshot" booming noise. My field also has too many craters in it to just explain away as transplanting apple trees I planted two years ago... So hey, let's just lay off the new guys until they get an understanding of what they're doing, as every sane person is more cautious of something that they don't know about. Especially if that something could give you some REALLY bad burns and remove fingers.

One last thing: Aluminum doesn't burn alone in a powder form, so a sheet of aluminum is definitely not going to spontaneously combust. Bert was right in saying that the purpose of making it an alloy is to make the metal stronger, perhaps more crack resistant, and also lighter (which is hard because al is already quite light). Have a nice day!

[Bert]

The alloying agents also serve to make the metal heat treatable for altering hardness, ductility & etc. Agree the new guy doesn't need to be beaten over the head (yet). Particle size can make a big difference in the behavior of small amounts of flash burned in the open. Using Mg or Mg/Al alloy also will increase speed dramatically over Al in the same particle size/shape. Pure Al structural members won't burn in any fire that wasn't so hot it wouldn't matter if it was Al or Fe, but Mg and Mg/Al alloys can be a real surprise in an aircraft or automobile fire- I remember an incident where some alloy wheels caught fire after an auto accident about 20 years ago. The light was intense.

[Evil_Tree]

Definatly go with the two micron flake. I've made 70/30 KClO4 with it. It's hella awsome. So loud I almost wet myself everytime.

[tom haggen]

Actually bert, Aluminum isn't really heat treated in the conventional way. It precipitation hardens over time. This type of aluminum is very expensive. I'm just having trouble finding a source of bar stock aluminum that I can file down. Sorry about the new guy. I have no room to talk I have said much more dumb stuff than that so I have no room to talk. I guess what I meant to say is I don't give a f-bomb about lighting off flash with in city limits why should you. I have been playing with precursors since I was 2 so it is not a big deal to me. anyway heres a pic of some flash I found on the net made with KCLO3 and Al. hope you guys like.www.geocities.com/grandpa_jacob/index.html?1076146554186

[tom haggen]

Heres a comp I made with Al and KNO3. I love this pic a lot. This cloud of fire is what was left over from a blinding flash of light.

[KarlMan]

I'm curious Tom Haggen, as to what ratios you used in your KNO3 flash and what aluminum grade you used. Nice pic by the way. *first post, here it goes..*

[tom haggen]

I used about 50% KNO3, 30% Al, and instead of using 20% sulfur, I just added a couple of specks of smokeless powder to lower the ingnition temperature. As for my Aluminum grade, I simply filed down a bar of pure aluminum that came glued to a strip of magnesium, sold as a fire starter at a surplus store. I told my dad to watch me light it off, and he went blind for like 5 minutes. I laughed cause I knew not to look directly at the flash. It was only like a 4gram charge. P.S. I think i'm going make a ball mill and start using aluminum foil. Its a bitch to make Al filings by hand.

[Blackhawk]

I'm suprised that the reaction was so violent with just Al filings, I have tried KNO3/Al with no burn, and KMnO4/Al with no burn. I have had very slow but acceptable burns from KMnO4/Al/S but the only thing I have ever had react with the violence of that comp would be KMnO4 or KNO3/Mg (Both my Al and Mg were ground with a dremel, the Al powder was quite fine but I have nothing to compare it to). I think I must powder my oxidisers more next time, I have been using the rounded end of a steel bolt and a glass dish but the grains of the oxidiser are still visible. Once I make a ball mill attatchment to my metal lathe I am hoping for some much better results.

[tom haggen]

Well I suppose that theres a possibility that the bar of aluminum I was using could be alloyed with magnesium. I'm really not positive. I know it is definitely Al, There could be a chance of some magnesium content. However, I definitely powdered my oxidiser very finely, and even preheated it in the oven just to make damm sure it was dry. Here's the same flash 1/30 of a second previous of the other pic. Blackhawk, you have a metal lathe? Man I'm very jealous. Oh the possibilities...

[Blackhawk]

Yes I just got it as a birthday present, I am paying for half of it however (all up $830AUD). Right now I am machining a (mostly) Al spring powered BB rifle, I am using the spring out of an umbrella which takes a good 60Kg to pull back half way so I am hoping for some decent power :D

[atmosphere1]

When aluminium powder (not mixed with other chemicals) can be ignited with a normal yellow(match) flame, It's fine/reactive enough for making good flash powder with it,without sulfur. This is what i've concluded after a lot of testing. Aluminium foil is the best material to start with,i believe .
And, don't think its impossible to make good flash aluminium powder at home . I have made and tested powders(also from others) that came very close to the German Dark 2 micron powder, that i've bought for comparison.

[Cyclonite]

In small salutes that 4 micron makes a difference. When your doing 5g+ it starts to not be too noticeable. If your pockets are deep then buy smallest you can. If you want to make large salutes use larger AL, small salutes use small AL.

Iv had a few drinks so my english may be not up to par.....im sure its fine though

I wonder if this was the right post to reply....oh well

[xxxplosive]

3 micron Dark German flake is all I would use, It dosen't burn quite as fast as 2 micron and is great to use with KCIO4

Phreak

[Nicker]

I have always used my Aluminum (German Dark) (ultra fine dust approximately 600 mesh), from united nuclear, always good and Potassium Perchlorate (KClO4), in a 30%/70% mixture. When placing in tubes and straight safety fuse going into the end caps, makes an extremely loud report and brilliant flash. After a while I found the same items off eBay in bulk, works amazing as promised. Just can’t buy fuse off eBay, some sort of restriction to sell it on eBay. I have a couple of daylight and nighttime flashpowder .avi's i have made, im going to look for hosting somewhere to show you guys. I also enjoy the smaller micron size for the faster burning, makes life better.

[andyboy]

Isn't this in the wrong place?

Anyway, I've found that it is best to mix two different types of AL to get the best bang for your buck. I usually mix German Dark and Aluminum flakes 25 µm (~325 mesh) in a 60/40 ratio. The addition of the flake aluminum seems to make the flash a bit fluffy and therefor helps to propagate the flame faster, not to mention that it is a lot cheaper then the German dark.

I have a small movie of a 100 grams obliterating a HDPE mortar here, might help b2sai see how powerful it really is.

http://andyboys.web.surftown.se/movies/100flash.wmv

[JimmyJones]

When I make mine I usually always use Dark German flake as it is well suited for and makes a nice flash.

[xxxplosive]

thats a cool, flash is fun stuff, I have tried a couple of mixes now and am finding that a mix of 15 um bright and 3 um dark german in a 30:70 ratio gives me lots of report and makes the flash brighter/last longer

[JimmyJones]

I found that a mixture of German Dark and Al in a 75/25 gives me a pretty nice bright looking flash.

[Bugger]

To obtain better ignition than finely divided pure Al, I wonder if anyone has thought of using Al-Mg alloy powders, or a mixture of Al and Mg powders, with or without a Mg strip as a "starter"?

[K9]

That's an interesting idea, I wonder how magnalium would work for flash powder. It seems that it would give a cool effect either way. I sometimes add magnesium powder to aluminum and I'm pretty sure it does give it an extra little kick.

[atmosphere1]

Ofcourse it does , Mg is much more reactive than Al

[croc]

I have 600gm of Mg and using it very slowly, the good thing about magnesium is it will burn quicker, ignite without and oxider and doesnt squeek when it is grounded down.

[tmp]

Croc, the Al powder I make will certainly burn without oxidizer although
you're assertion that Mg is easier to ignite is certainly correct. Mg
filings ignite easily. My Al powder is almost as dark as charcoal when
I'm finished processing it.

[croc]

Sorry TMP I didn’t properly explain myself but what I meant buy it will “ignite without an oxider” is the unprocessed Mg and Al (grounded down with a file)

[tmp]

Croc, I didn't take any offense by your post. Mg is easier to ignite and
makes a hell of a brighter flash than Al in just about any comp that I
know of ! I currently have 25 LBS of Mg that needs to be ground up.
Currently, my work with powdered Al is making it sub-micron ! Excellent for
work with rocket fuel mixtures when I get it down to size ! Hell, even the
NASA shuttle uses sub-micron Al in the 2 solid boosters ! Now only if I
could find a cheap source of ammonium perchlorate my rocket fuel problems
would be solved ! Until then, I have to make it myself !