AP vs Flash

[Cyclonite]

While I was back home I conducted some experiments with flash and AP. The flash I used was German dark and KNO4 30%/70% respectively. I filled some small bottles with 10g charges of each and buried them both about 1 1/2 ft in heavy soil. The Flash resulted in a loud thud and a fair amount of dirt being thrown about 10-15ft in the air and AP hardly moved any dirt and was accompanied by a fireball that seeped up through the soil. I was under the impression that AP had quite a bit more power but it doesn’t seem that way. I was thinking that the Flash creates more gas and is slower so it moves earth better, but im not sure.....What are your thoughts on this?

[xyz]

If your AP made a fireball then it probably deflagrated instead of detonating.

The most likely cause for this is that it wasn't properly dry, AP needs to be very dry to work properly.

[fire vs. water]

KNO4?? is that a mistake and you meant KNO3? or ?
I've never heard of a substance called KNO4...

[Guerilla]

He meant KClO4. If standard 7/3 flash has a VoD of approximately 1500 m/sec and most of the products formed are in a solid state right after the combustion, there seem to be nothing that would make flash have considerably more brisance than ap, although flash releases alot more heat during the burn/detonation and thus raises the gas pressure. Unfortunately I cant say anything from experience as I have never been privileged to KClO4/Al flash..maybe your ap just deflagrated as said.

[NoltaiR]

It has been a little while since I have played with AP.. but it has interested me that the whole APrc (AP and rubber cement) hasn't caught on much further than SafteyLast (I think that was his name) blowing up a phonebook with some.

AP in any form takes a little experience before you can get wanted results and I know that HEs with high VoD will never move dirt nearly as well has something with a low VoD (such as flash, BP, NH4NO3, etc).

But check out the APrc.. the VoD is lowered somewhat but the overall power seems to be amplified whether confined or out in the open.

[tom haggen]

How much is the VoD lowered? Somewhat is a very vague unit of measurement.

[NoltaiR]

Seeing as how I have no way to measure this I don't have any numbers...

[scarletmanuka]

Instead of RC I use celluloid because it is at least a little energetic, but AP should have better heaving power than flash. Besides I would like to see 0.1 grams of Flash vapourise an apple.

[FinnBell]

When I made AP putty (from ping pong balls) I filled about 3/4 of a film canister with straight AP and then the same amount of AP with the AP putty and me and my friends (in a daydream that is) used the first charge of straight AP on a mailbox, and it seemed to rip it apart pretty good pretty much leaving most of it torn up and all. But when we used the same amount of AP putty it seemed to turn it inside out if that makes sense. Like it ripped it up but not as much as the first charge but this time the whole box completely came off of the stand. Much more similar to when we used to used crater makers. Im guessing this is because of the NC in the ping pong balls. I have never tried rubber cement.

By the way Noltair, after the APrc dries is it still kinda rubbery or does it get hard like AP putty? And about how long does it take to dry? Cause my AP putty took what seemed like years. It was actually like about 4 days but thats entirely too long.

[Desmikes]

Cyclonite, there is obviously something wrong with your AP. Even if you light that much AP at night in a pile, it will probably detonate without ptoducing any visible flame. If it was confined and underground and still deflagrated - there is definitely something wrong with it. 10g would make a significant boom and I doubt that flash can possibly measure up to it.

[McGyver]

AP putty dries really fast, if your using acetone and NC. I actualy had to added some more acetone into the mix during the procedure because it was drying so fast. It should be left to dry for half a day at least, because when i used mine after about an hour of drying it exploded but wasnt very powerfull(didnt even sratch the glass i taped it too). The amount i used probably weighed around 15g.

[Cyclonite]

I was thinking along the lines of it not being quite dry, I made a large amount and it seemed dry enough but could be more so. Yes I did mean KCLO4. It was quite confined though, I would think it would have still high ordered. If it was just a little damp I figured it was just a little safer to work with. It wouldnt stick to anything but would leave a slight wet residue on my knife blade.

[McGyver]

AP doesn't work well when its wet, put it under a lamp for the night. I did a test once, i put about .5g of it on paper. After it lit, it burned a hole though the sheet of paper. I did the same with some damp AP, it made a fire ball but didn't do anything to the paper.

[blindreeper]

DO NOT put any explosive under a heat source to dry it out! Apart from the danger of over heating what if it is left on to long fucks up and the bulb blows or somthing and sends hot shards of glass around. The AP will go boom! Or if the lamp falls over = hot lamp = AP + desk + lamp GONE!
It may sound over saftey cautious but there is no such thing in this feild. But please DO NOT EVER speed up the drying process by heat when it comes to explosives!

[McGyver]

Never had a bulb expload before, i guess it could happen.

[Mumble]

I don't remember the person, but a senior member, had their AP explode on them from heating with a lamp. It was sitting on a desk. I think it blew out a nearby window. If someone knows what I'm talking about could you post a link?

If speeding up the drying is necesary, I've heard a light spraying of the wet crystals with Isopropanol can speed it up. The most heating I'd ever apply to an explosive, expecially something like AP, would be to put in on top of the water heater(maybe 30 to 35 degrees)

[kingspaz]

Heating a peroxide to make it dry quicker...not the best plan really.
better is to suck the thing dry. place the filter paper on a thick wad of kitchen towel. this will suck out most of the moisture. the wad will need replacing every hr or so. then after 3 hrs put some CaCl2 in a plastic box, put another kitchen towel wad over that then put the filter paper on it. now put the lid on nice and tight and leave over night. thats as fast drying as it gets round were i live. high humidity and high precipitation rate coupled with a low average temperature means drying is very difficult.

heres an equation to learn:

heat source + primary explosive ---> BOOM!

not 99% of the time, but why take the risk?

patience is a virtue as are fingers.

[Sparky]

Mumble, the incident you are talking about happened to Anthony. Here is the topic in the archive:

http://odin.prohosting.com/~forumtwo/jan01/20011012-3-000228.html

The pictures are gone from the thread but you can see them in the Dreams video made by THeRAPIST. The thread for this is:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2267&highlight=dreams+forum+video

The pictures of the desk with the whole blown in it is from the accident.

Also, in case you're interested there is some follow up about the incident:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=559


Personally for drying stuff out I'm a big fan of dessicators. Some calcium chloride road salt in the bottom of a tupperware container works nicely.

[EP]

The pictures can be found here if you scroll down to "Workbench Mishap"

http://krimzonpyro.com/various/

[McGyver]

Wow, that looks like the same setup i had! Exept mine didn't explode, and i'll be sure to avoid drying AP this way in the future.

[Mr. Yuck]

http://www.angelfire.com/pro/mr.yuck/4thjuly3mov.wmv

scarletmanuka:

"...AP should have better heaving power than flash. Besides I would like to see 0.1 grams of Flash vapourise an apple."

FP is much more of a heaving explosive than AP. A heaving explosive pushes things out of the way, but a shattering explosive does just that, it shatters. Although AP is not brisant, it is compared to FP. So your AP would vaporize an apple, it would not be heaving.

That video I posted contains several flash powder blasts, thought I might just add that.

[Nihilist_666]

Originally posted by Mumble
I don't remember the person, but a senior member, had their AP explode on them from heating with a lamp. It was sitting on a desk. I think it blew out a nearby window. If someone knows what I'm talking about could you post a link?

If speeding up the drying is necesary, I've heard a light spraying of the wet crystals with Isopropanol can speed it up. The most heating I'd ever apply to an explosive, expecially something like AP, would be to put in on top of the water heater(maybe 30 to 35 degrees)

I heard something like that before, some guy was drying out AP on his desk with a lamp while he was across the room ball milling something. The AP detonated and blew a hole right through his desk ramming parts of it through the carpet. He was lucky he wasnt killed.

If you want to speed up the drying just wash it with methylated spirits or another alcohol while it is in the filter.

[tom haggen]

Hey Mr. Yuck, those are some pretty impressive blasts for being flash powder. I was just wondering what type of flash compositions you were using?

[Mr. Yuck]

That was standard 70/30. I was using German dark 500mesh. Some of the devices in the rocks were not exactly quartersticks either.

[nuclearattack]

After Cyclonite's thread i decided to make some tests with AP, Flash and AP putty.
I tested the charges under 20 cm of earth and the charges were made with the same kind of confinement and detonator (1gr AP). I noticed that Flash produces more gas because it's able to move more sand then AP, but AP putty (NC and AP) is more powerfull then Flash. It is more brisant and it moved a lot of sand, far more then Flash. I also think that Cyclonite's AP was wet.