CaSO4 and other cheap oxidizers

[dana_m_h]

I know kewls and newbies shouldnt post but I looked through the forum and found very little on truely cheap oxidizers anyone can get nearly anywhere without any problems. KNO3 raises suspicions where I live along with any fertilizer of any sort. But there are other oxidizers that few people use probably for a reason that I know nothing of. CaSO4 (anhydrous) and MgSO4. Also known as plaster of paris and epsom salts. These are oxidizers. Can they be used or are they a pain in the ass to ignite or are they dangerous. They are rarely discussed and should be included in the forum. They are different and cheap to buy and they might be good for something but who knows what.

[edit: spelling]

[Bert]

Didn't you do a site search? You will find a discussion of such things here: Flash Powder & Castable Plaster Incendiaries (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=504)

You will find a post in that thread by sparky where he cut & pasted a discussion of the various sulfates as oxidizers that should answer your questions.

[YayItGoBoom!]

I would think SO4 2- compounds would be rather poor at donating oxygen. Sulphur is quite stable at 6+ ionization, in fact it often is used as a reducing agent (electron donor) in gunpowder (its the stuff that burns basically) At most, it might give off the extra single oxygen and form SO3 gas (which for a large molecular mass oxidizer, 1 oxygen is horrible). On the other hand look at the perchlorate ion. Chlorine is in +7 ionization energy, with four oxygens. Give it a thermochemical kick in the rear, and it reduces to -1 ionization, giving off 4 oxygen atoms. Which is why halogen oxidizers are very powerful (chlorates, iodates aren't as well known)

Have you tried calcium nitrate? Sheeple usually think of Potassium and Ammonium Nitrate as the explosive/terrorist/Oklahoma city bomber oxidizers. I don't think calcium nitrate has that bad of a rap. Also look in the Nitric Acid section there is a great article on conversion of Ca(NO3)2 into nitric acid.

EDIT: You can in fact use sulfates as oxidizers, but you would have to use them with aluminum or magnesium thermite mixes. Which would mean pain in the ass ignition. That kind of puts you back at square one because you probably need KNO3/Mg Powder in order to ignite it consistently.

[vulture]

I would think SO4 2- compounds would be rather poor at donating oxygen. Sulphur is quite stable at 6+ ionization, in fact it often is used as a reducing agent (electron donor) in gunpowder (its the stuff that burns basically)

Don't know who told you that, but its bullshit. SO4 2- can not be used as a reducing agent, as it would have to donate electrons, getting an oxidation state higher than +6 which is impossible.

WTF makes you think sulfates is the stuff that burns in gunpowder? Gunpowder = nitrocellulose + NG.

[Bert]

Gunpowder = nitrocellulose + NG

Well- nowadays maybe. But I think he was refering to black powder.

[vulture]

Then he meant sulfur. Still, it means he doesn't understand the principle of oxidation states or he misphrased it. Either way, just correcting false information...

[YayItGoBoom!]

Alright maybe its a little bit hard to understand (yea it makes sense in my mind but it doesn't always come out that way). SULFUR (S superscript zero, no ionization) is a reducing agent in gunpowder. SULFATES would have to act as oxidizers, you're right sulfur could not go higher than 6+, but I never said it could ;-) (depends on how you interpret it, like the word "read" pronounced REED or RED). However, when it comes to the volatility of oxidizers, the sulfate ion is on the lesser reactivity scale. What I mean to say it that sulfur starts out neutral then gives up its electrons, becoming a 4+ or 6+ in a more stable bond arrangement.

[Microtek]

Actually, CaSO4*2H2O is not bad at all as a binder/oxidizer for thermite. Mr Cool has done some experiments with it, and so have I. I found that it wasn't much harder to ignite than regular thermite.

[mongo blongo]

And I have too. I actually find that it ignites more reliably. I cast a block of it and drill a hole for my igniting mix to go in. It works every time now. I also add a bit more Al as this reacts with the CaSO4 as well.

[vulture]

However, when it comes to the volatility of oxidizers, the sulfate ion is on the lesser reactivity scale.

Volatility has not much to do with reactivity. N2 is very volatile but pretty inert, whereas O2 is almost equally volatile and very reactive.

[YayItGoBoom!]

Huh, never would have guessed that about calcium sulfate thermites. Vulture, I am confused with your statement about diatomic nitrogen. By volatility do you mean total energy present in bonds? Yes it is true that N2 stores a lot of energy in the tripple bond, but by volatility I mean the ease with which a molecule breaks down. Nitroglycerine is a LOT easier to break down than N2 gas.

[vulture]

Volatility has nothing to do with bond strength. Volatility describes the evaporation speed of a compound given a certain temperature, also known as vapor pressure.

EDIT: Well, there is a connection between bond strength and volatility, but you can't make any useful quantitative predictions with it.

[Hang-Man]

I think it's Mr. Cool's page where you can find some info on some Plaster Paris/ Al powder charges. They clearly work well, allthough they are closer to thermite.

[Dandeman321]

Actually I just found that site today and printed out the instructions for experimenting. The site is
http://www.flashbangboom.homestead.com/yields_etc~ns4.html
It's halfway down the page.

[markgollum]

While reading about the synthesis of sodium sulfide (I need it for DDNP, but lets not get in to that on this thread) at the university library, I found an interesting, and probably useful reaction.
Sodium sulfide was once made like this.
Na2SO4 + 4C ->Na2S + 4CO (the reaction occurs at 900-1000degC)
I found it in The Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology, volume 22, page 415-416.
So, this is what should happen with calcium sulfate, when it acts as an oxidiser.
CaSO4 + fuel -> CaS + 2O2 (which occurs as an oxide of the fuel(s) )

[CommonScientist]

I have made NaClO3 by means of electrolysis, and I have the jar of electrolyte and NaClO3 in my lab. I will probably filter it out today or tomorrow, depending on how the weather is(im going to do it outside of course) Does anyone know about its power as an oxidizer? I dont know what I am going to make with it, maybe if it burns slow enough, I may use it in a smoke comp. or another comp. I heard of a comp called H2 or H5 or something like that, I forget what the precursers are for it though, but I know it contains NaClO3. Could I just use an old white T-shirt to filter ir out from the electrolyte?

[Skean Dhu]

you're refering to H3 and it contains KClO3 and Carbon(ie charcoal) if I'm not mistaken, Krimzonpyro has the recipie for it I think. I believe that NaCLO3 absorbs water more readily than KClO3 which is why it is used more ,I'm not sure but i think they can be used interchangably. However if you desire KClO3 you can do a simple displacement with NaClO3+KCl-->NaCl+KClO3, KCl can be found in some water softener pellets, or as a salt substitute.

[dana_m_h]

Well I believe that CaCO4 would be effective as an oxidizer for high temperature reactions such as a thermite, But what I am more interested in is a replacement for the normal KNO3 and NaNO3 oxidizers used in gunpowder. The reason it might be beneficial to know is to avoid the suspicious thoughts and looks... we all want to avoid prison as much as possible... and the patriot act has just made everything so much worse.

Oh I would also like to add it is so nice to be back to the forum I missed it dearly while it was gone

[croc]

But what I am more interested in is a replacement for the normal KNO3 and NaNO3 oxidizers used in gunpowder.

I wouldn’t think that sulfates would be strong enough for substituting KNO3 in gunpowder.
It’s easer making KNO3 from calcium nitrate. I brought myself a 25 kilo sack for under $20.
All you need is equal moles of calcium nitrate and potassium sulfate. Dissolve then both mix them heat them for full reaction to occur and then filter the white precipitate (calcium sulfate). You are left with potassium nitrate solution. Evaporate the water and dry the crystals.

we all want to avoid prison as much as possible...

It sounds like your making pyrotechnic devices, and I don’t think many places can put you in jail easily for that. Which country are you from?

[dana_m_h]

I was of a formally fireworks unfriendly state... New York ... but since i have moved to Pittsburgh Pennslyvania. It is no where near as bad as it was there. but living in the city I have more problems with finding a place to light things off. I have found a few places but it isnt like where I used to live out in the country side. there is always a police presence here in town and they are some of the worst cops.... my neighboor was drunk and he got pistol whipped and maced twice for public intoxication in his own home! I don't want to poke the bears...

I make charges with black powder they arent much but they are loud and give a nice flash and if i get caught i am not exactly what they would do... also I would like to know how well calcium carbonate is as an oxidizer...

thanks in advance___________________________________________ _________________Dana

[TheFulmen]

Calcium carbonate as an oxidizer? Sorry, you're barking up the wrong tree here. If you need KNO3, get KNO3. There really isn't any substitutes exept for very exotic compositions (such as thermite). You could probably react magnesium with carbonates, but if you think nitrates raises suspicion you haven't tried getting hold of magnesium powder.