Storing Explosives....I know its stupid...

[flashpoint]

I know I know, before I get an online bitch out, hear me out. I was reading about how a few of you store, AP, which is stupid, but I have to store some...for use on New Years....currently its outside drying...I'm trying to figure out a way to seperate the batches into smaller batches and I'm wondering where I should keep it..the garage or the shed? I'm guessing the garage, I'm going to end up moving a lot of the chemicals and solvents and paints from the garage, as I'm worried if there was an explosion...just how quick my house would be flattened and engulfed in flames :eek: Anyway, my point of this post, is a method for storing small amounts of AP for a short amount of time...I know not to cover them in containers, such as screw on caps, or butter dishes....so just leave them on a shelf, away from access, on paper plates? How much, would YOU store at a time, and still feel safe? Also, how do you dry your explosives if wet? I wet my AP slightly with acetone, to help evaporate water...does this help or just make the crystal get larger, thus even more unstability? These are just questions I've been having for a while now and am curious. Thanks.

[kingspaz]

thats not really storage. its only a few days. i see storage as more than 2 weeks but its all about opinion. i'd divide it into piles about 2cm in diameter. on separate plates with atleast 0.75m between each. it would help to know how much AP you have. the smaller the piles the better really.

[streety]

Personally I would prefer to store AP in the shed rather than a garage. I would much rather have a shed blow up on me than the garage attached to my house. Suppose it would depend on a whole variety of issues though, security of your shed, the temperature. Also, however unlikely, if my house was raided I would much rather the police found explosives in my shed rather than my garage. Probably make no difference what-so-ever but no point making things easy for them.

[xyz]

If I ever need to store AP for any longer than a week, I put it into a soft plastic drinking cup, pour water in until it covers the AP by several centimetres, then put a flat piece of cardboard over the top of the cup to stop things from falling into it. I keep the cup on the shed floor with nothing else near to it.

The main thing to remember is that if AP is soaked in water then it is greatly desensitized and doesn't "evaporate"

[flashpoint]

Well the synthesis, I performed, was supposed, to put out somewhere near 130 grams....but I had 2 pyrex containers full! Like literally. Something happened and I got more AP than I asked for...I have 5 platefuls..Its about 2 or 3 centimeters deep...and the plates are about 12" in diameter, I'm going to have to dispose of some of this one way or another...I'm just trying to figure out how to dry it quicker...and store it...some of it I won't be using....some of it I will. I'm guessing I have a kilo of AP, I'm still trying to figure out how this happened. I was just toying around and didn't even have an ice bath...although the ap formed, performs, just as the ap formed with an icebath....I'm guessing I still have trimeric version of ap, I'll do more tests and see what happens. I had practically no waste filtrate...it was weird. Anyway...drying recommendation for this kind of yield, would be highly appreciated!

[Ammonal]

I wrap my AP in paper towel, using 2 sheets; put the first on a flat surface pour on your AP, now put the second sheet on top of the AP and fold the corners into the middle to stop any AP from falling out. I have stored AP in this manner for over 3 weeks and I noticed no changes in crystal size or anything. I either put it in the coolest spot in my workshop, or in a an old fridge that doesnt work but it just insulates the AP even from the 35+ degrees C days I have been getting for the last couple of weeks now. Cant complain makes excellent drying weather for HMTD.

[xyz]

Flashpoint, I once had a similar situation on my hands... I don't think you have a kilo of AP, probably a bit less but still a hell of a lot more than 130g. Just be damn careful with it, with that amount of AP a spark won't just deflagrate it, it will cause a massive detonation.

I would take what you need for New Years, then soak the rest of it in water.

Or you could make a load of 700g APAN boosters and get some nice big ANFO charges set off.

[blindreeper]

You could always just spread it out like fertilizer on a bit of ground and water it in :P That gets rid of AP ratehr fast. In Australia drying takes less than a day between August - April cause its so damn hot and NOT humid! I had 45g of AP that I filtered in the morning and it was dry by the afternoon.
For new years, why not detonate the whole lot? Sounds dangerous bit if you managed to jsut dump all the AP into an ice cream bucket or something and fuse it, it should be good!

[flashpoint]

blindreeper: me and you think a lot alike I had thought about that, but I ordered 50 tubes, and 100 feet visco, so it would be here before new years. Then I'll have one helluva charge. I'm going to go get my friends scale, I lost my coke scale :( I guess I'll just use my friends, and weigh this whole batch out, and let you know what it weighs, I probably lost 50-60 grams in spilling and stuff hah...I was messy with this batch...very messy. My father was like, son, you need to quit using the dinner plates to dry that shit on. I was like dad, I have to, he's like here just put it in this washed butter container....I looked at him like an idiot and told him for the 20th time, that I was scared to store, all of it in that container, for fear if it all went up, my hands/head/legs would be gone. He then took the 5 plates, and made them into 3 paper plates...so I brought 2 more out and rationed them out to 5 again. I'm so trying to find a place to move out of the house into, so I can do more research and testing...its hard though, being in college, and trying to move out...I'm living here free, can't bitch. Free internet, free food...I have it good. :) By the way, the plates have yellow on the bottom, I'm guessing its's something to do with the HCl, what the hell would make it do that though? I know when its dropped on concrete, or cement, it turns yellow and fizzes, but I'm not understanding why its doing this, when it has been neutralized...maybe infact, I haven't neutralized it all. Maybe I'll search the forum and read, what I came across last time on that subject...

by the way, xyz, I'm having trouble with my APAN charges, speaking of that. :) Maybe you could help me...I've been reading a lot on it, but I just can't get a charge, to successfully detonated.

[blindreeper]

If the yellow is on the paper plates don't worry. It happens when they get wet I think, or an acidic environment. Mine went red when I was drying urea nitrate on one (HCl method) I had some 40g of AP on a paper plate also and it went yellow/orange colour and was wet. I have been told that they are treated with copper nitrate but that maybe total bull shit.
With all those tubes thats a fair few AP crackers :D

About the APAN I don't know if it detonated or not but I had the charge under 50cm of dirt in a hole electrically detonated with a 2g AP cap. It was 35g APAN with 30g AN and 5g AP. All I got was a puff of dirt rising up about 20cm high with a pop sound. I think it may have detonated because when my ANNM failed det happened the same day all I got was a pop from the 3g cap and no dirt moving.

[xyz]

flashpoint, the yellow is left over HCl, wash your AP some more because if it is yellow then it is still acidic. AP should be a nice snow white colour.

And for APAN to work, the AN and AP both have to be very dry, and the AN has to be powdered finely enough to mix well with the AP.

Also, make sure you are using a detonator of at least 2 grams of PRESSED AP. I can't stress how important it is to press your detonators properly (that goes for all detonators, not just ones for APAN). You don't have to put heaps of force on it either, just a force of a few Kg applied gently but firmly.

[Zeitgeist]

I wouldn't like to put any more force on it than i need to, i like these fingers

You say you wet it slightly with acetone, but unless i'm seriously mistaken it's highly soluble in acetone - do you lose any?

[Efraim_barkbit]

As xyz too says, I recomend that the AP should bee at least slightly pressed.
However, when dealing with APAN, I usually dont use more than 1ccm of it (5cm long piece of pen tubing), and I think that I get the density to bee not more than about 0.6-.7g/ccm.
I have never had a faliure with APAN, except for some occasions where the det has failed the d-d transition due to it being moist.
BTW, I´m using ~10% AP to AN in the charges.

flashpoint, last time I made AP, I got quite surprised over how massive my yield looked, but later I found out that the density was very low, due to extremely fine crystal structure, about 0,15-0,2g/ccm. I don´t have a very good scale, but if it´s not totally fucked, I should have gotten approximate readings. By the looks of it, I thought I would have got at least 100g, but when I wheighted it, it was only 40g, wich was more like I had expected.

I store my AP in the filter I filter it in, in a old fridge. this keeps it from drying, and it doesn´t recristalyse very much either. I usually also have some dry AP in a film can, wich I use if I get an urgent need to do some blasting...
From the day when I do a batch, till the day I use the last of it, it is usually around a 1-1,5 month. Only once have I noticed anything more than a minor recrystalisation, and that was during a hot summer period.

When I set something off, it is usually ANNM if it is bigger than 100g, and APAN if it is smaller.
I never store APAN charges more than 3-4 days, usually, I mix it just before use.

[flashpoint]

Thanks for the information. Although I figured my AP still had some extra HCl in it, its not that much, it doesn't fizz when it hits the floor, only after alot of contact with the paper does it change colors...so I'm going to refrain from washing it...but again...its still outside...drying...still wet....longest batch ever to dry...I guess because its so big...i'm going to end upc hanging the plates, so it won't have to sit on wet plates.

As far as the APAN goes, I dried the AN on a hot skillet...in its prilled form..then I crushed it after that, should have done it the other way around though I suppose. Does the APAN have to be confined? Or just pressed and the det pressed into it? Just curious if I was doing this right. I'll try to get a few pictures of the results of the new test soon.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

I lost my coke scale

By "coke scale" im guessing you mean any scale which one could weigh coke with. Or perhaps its a brand or type or scale and im mistaken. In the case of the former, i don't know why you would need to tell us that your scale is specifically used for weighing coke. Are you tring to impress someone or what?

Why do you people need so much AP? Hell when I prepare AP I only make around 10 grams and I dry out small amounts as I need it. The bulk of it remains under water. Using AP (or AP sensitized explosives for that matter) as your main charge is just stupid. Ap should only be prepared in small amounts for making detonators IMO. I also don't think churning out 50+ large AP salutes in your M-80 factory is a good idea. AP is just too sensitive to be used for making casual fireworks in a production line fashion like that. If i were you i'd spead out the whole batch in a long, thin line and ignite one end.

As for storing AP in your house or garage... Well all I have to say is BAD IDEA. God, I don't know how you people get to sleep at night knowing you have large amounts of primary explosives in your house just itching to go off. Putting it in a shed or outside somewhere is a much better plan. I store explosives in airtight ammo cans underground.

Im not sure, but wouldn't the inside of a unpowdered fridge be warmer than outside if its hot out?

[FrankRizzo]

it doesn't fizz when it hits the floor, only after alot of contact with the paper does it change colors...so I'm going to refrain from washing it

"Doesn't fizz when it hits the floor"? Do you mean that it doesn't react with the concrete? That's an INCREDIBLY unscientific measurement of acidity. If you truly do have close to 1kg of AP sitting around, I would STRONGLY suggest washing your yield with sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) before you become a statistic. As the water evaporates off, you're going to be left with a much more acidic environment.

If the re-drying your yield after neutralizing is what is putting you off, just go to the hardware store and buy some Damp-Rid. A plastic container (ice cream pail) with a 1" layer at the bottom, and a section of window screen used as a shelf above it will dry things very fast.

While it's not the monster that many people play it up to be, AP is a PRIMARY explosive and is not something to disrespect.

[flashpoint]

By "coke scale" im guessing you mean any scale which one could weigh coke with. Or perhaps its a brand or type or scale and im mistaken. In the case of the former, i don't know why you would need to tell us that your scale is specifically used for weighing coke. Are you tring to impress someone or what?

That's what I called it, although it wasn't used for this purpose. Just to let you know I wasn't bragging or anything :)


Why do you people need so much AP? Hell when I prepare AP I only make around 10 grams and I dry out small amounts as I need it. The bulk of it remains under water.

I didn't mean to have such a huge batch...I was aiming for near 100 grams for a special effect.

"Doesn't fizz when it hits the floor"? Do you mean that it doesn't react with the concrete? That's an INCREDIBLY unscientific measurement of acidity. If you truly do have close to 1kg of AP sitting around, I would STRONGLY suggest washing your yield with sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) before you become a statistic. As the water evaporates off, you're going to be left with a much more acidic environment.

I realize this...I'm not entirely stupid...I have washed it, MULTIPLE times...with a bicarb solution, and I know AP is a 'PRIMARY' explosive. I treat it with respect...and 99.9% of the people that treat explosives with respect, don't end up a "statistic". Although some cases may prove otherwise...shit does happen...I understand that...

Anyhow..after all of that...my original means, for producing a 100 gram batch, was not for "M80's, salutes, boom makers, what have you", it was mainly for detonators...the rest I planned on setting aside, and using a few tubes I ordered. I didn't plan on making 50+ Ap crackers....a few, but not 50, the rest, are going to be saved, for some tests, with other explosives.

[green beret]

I have no idea what the problem is, but whenever I make AP, I don't get anywhere near the yeilds being discussed here, even when following someone elses recipe to the word. I've changed chemicals (to different brands) except for the acid, I'll try that next, but somehow I dont think its the acid, maybe my product just has a higher density than other peoples for some reason. My scales have been damaged for some time, I'm going to get some more accurate ones soon. Flashpoint, could you tell me which procedure you used, including H202 concentration etc. Thanks.

[Dead mAn Walkin]

When I store my Ap, I store it in a folded peice of paper then I put it in a ziplock bag to keep the desired moisture level. I keep the quantities low- under 50g.

Remember, this is WHEN I HAVE to store it. Storing Sensitive Explosives is Unsafe and not smart. No matter how sure you are of your method

[McGyver]

The lower yeild is probably due to impure chemicals. I get about 5g less when i use H2SO4 and a h2o2 consentration of ~30.

I dont see anypoint of making any kind of LE with AP because it creates a poor report, unlike flash.

Also was woundering how much flash would be neccesary to achieve a decent deformation of a mailbox...? :D

[xyz]

green beret, are you keeping the temperature nice and low and adding your acid slowly?

Here in Australia it can be quite difficult to keep the temperature down, which is why I always use a salt ice bath (one solid block of salt ice with the beaker frozen inside and with the top 1cm of the beaker protruding out of the top, that way, almost the entire surface area of the beaker is cooled).

[blindreeper]

I always have added the H2O2 to the acetone, put it in a freezer till its -10/-20 and then add all the acid at once (HCl) it normally only rises to about 0*C so I can make it fairly fast.

[markgollum]

Because the only primarys I have made, are peroxides, I NEVER make more than 4g at a time.(just enough for two dets). Also, as soon as the peroxide has been filtered, I seperate it into two piles, which I keep at about six inches apart.
Right now, I am storing about 2grams of HMTD inside a hollow concrete block, well protected from heat or shock.
I know it sounds a bit excessive, but it is easy to do, and drastically decreases the chance that I will be injured because of a mishap.

[xyz]

Don't store AP in a hollow concrete block.

Explosion = Flying concrete pieces

If it is stored in the open or inside a very soft container (hollow polystyrene block?) then it eliminates the shrapnel risk.

[green beret]

I always keep it nice and cool, and I am sure my chemicals are pure, I'll try and cool it down even more.

Also, if any Aussie wants some cheap glassware, go to ebay and type in glass wear, there is some very cheap stuff on sale from a person in Sydney, I would buy it but couldnt be bothered arranging a couruier, I dont really trust them.

[markgollum]

About the HMTD in the concrete block. The walls of the block are 2 inches thick, and there is a lot of space inside. (7 * 4 * 3.5 = 98 cubic in). So, taking into account the thickness of the block, its volume, the very minimal amount of explosive (2g), and the fact that the top is open with only a piece of wood for a lid, I don’t think that the pieces of the block would fly more than 2-3ft. However, feel free to correct me on this.

Yes, a styrofoam or pumice block would be superior to what I have, and I am planning to get a block of pumice, when the garden stores open in the spring.

[Rhadon]

I wouldn't use pumice either because an explosion could still cause dangerous shrapnel. Styrofoam is much better suited. Additionally, it's cheap and easy to work with.

I was somewhat surprised to read that in the commercial manufacturing process of explosive devices they sometimes use special sealed containers for storing and transporting (mostly primary) explosives. These spherical containers ("shields") are made from steel with a diameter of about 60 cm, their walls having a thickness of only a little more than 0.6 cm. That's sufficient to withstand the detonation of 567 g of lead azide inside the shield, though.

I've attached an image of the shield being mounted on a cart. Its locking mechanism can be seen in the upper right corner.

[flashpoint]

Thanks for the pictures and info Rhadon...might have to try some experimenting with steel now...